Dark Souls Upgrades

[Monarch_Laciel]

If we see character's dodging actual lighting, generally we assume they are moving fast enough that lightning seems slow, not that the lightning is slower than normal lightning for some reason.

And the AP of those lightning spells are always able to deal damage, even if low level characters deal less damage than higher level characters, so it's always in the same AP range bracket.

 

[Rune_Katashima]

Right, but they must be calculated appropriately, and not, "Well, it's lightning so it does everything normal lightning does."

Stop trying to apply real world physics to a world that doesn't obey them.

To say, "Well, it's lightning therefore it's 220,000 mph" is headcanon.

 

[Jesterofgames]

Real quick I think you meant to say "massivly hypersonic" not hypersonic The fodder aslylem demon's swinging speed was calculated at hypersonic

 

[Firestorm808]

@Rune Katashima

Can you give an example of your argument where fictional lightning is much slower in context?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The slow lightning argument, havent heard this one in a while

 

[Rune_Katashima]

What do you mean? Dark Souls' lightning is slow. It also has regular, real lightning. Seen in Gael's fight. Ashen one can't dodge it, he dodges it if he does so pre-emptively because the game shows you where it will strike. If you attempt to dodge once it's been launched you get hit.

Compare to the throw speed of regular lightning and compare to the throw speed of fireballs. Fire is only marginally slower. Meanwhil lightning doesn't move much faster than a fastball (baseball).

The fastest use of the magic form of lightning is by Gwyn in the cinematic. If you want, I'll accept the throw speed of that as a calc if anyone wants to do that.

I know what you mean by slow lightning but if you can hold lightning in your hand without holding the ends while also needing to chuck it, that means it has a speed that isn't set by virtue of being lightning.

 

[Keeweed]

^ but you can dodge the nameless king lightning which works even more like real lightning since it conduits to cloud water and comes from the sky

 

[Rune_Katashima]

Comes from his spear every time, even when he aims it in to the air. Rule of thumb, if it's yellow it's magic. White lightning is normal. Gael's lightning is the only "normal" lightning we've had in the series.

And not to sound like a dick, I'd like nothing more than to just simply agree and move on but even if NK did, I'd consider that more an outlier than the rule.

Can we also keep in mind that most dodging is due to iFrames? It's a game mechanic. Or we can just say he's invincible for .4333 seconds while performing a dodge :/

 

[Keeweed]

^ most animators usually draw lightning yellow (plus by that logic the bearer of the curse dodged lightning from the mirror knight), and it doesn't come from his spear, it comes from the sky after he uses his spear as a conduitor to summon it

 

[Keeweed]

Comes from his spear every time, even when he aims it in to the air. Rule of thumb, if it's yellow it's magic. White lightning is normal. Gael's lightning is the only "normal" lightning we've had in the series.

And not to sound like a dick, I'd like nothing more than to just simply agree and move on but even if NK did, I'd consider that more an outlier than the rule.

Can we also keep in mind that most dodging is due to iFrames? It's a game mechanic. Or we can just say he's invincible for .666 seconds while performing a dodge :/

Saying he dodges only because IF is like saying the bullet heaven characters dodge their attack from having a hit box the size of their foot. Also no it won't be an outlier since fodder have performed hypersonic feats and you can dodge lightning multiple times from different enemies.

 

[Rune_Katashima]

http://darksouls2.wiki.fextralife.com/Looking+Glass+Knight

LGK Doesn't do anything you describe.

Your last statement doesn't make sense at all.

Most Bullet *hell* characters DO only dodge because their hitbox is tiny. That's not a contradiction. If we;re talking about Touhou we have other depictions of their abilities besides just the games to determine their power.

 

[Keeweed]

^ so by your logic bullet heaven character ( bullet heaven is a game) apparently only defeat Akro because of gameplay mechanics which makes no sense once so ever. By that logic no character in video games can dodge attacks because "it's a gameplay mechanic" which goes completely against a dodge system in the first place. Also how does "it's not an outlier since fodder have done close" not make since.

• Edit it's 11:00 pm where I live so I'm going to bed (I will or someone will respond to anything you have to say today or tomorrow)

 

[Firestorm808]

@Rune Katashima

Sunlight Spear

In-Game Description:

"Miracle born from the fading soul of Gwyn. Hurl sunlight spear. In the war that marked the dawn of the Age of Fire, Gwyn wielded these rays of sunlight, which remains fierce even as they fade."

How else were they going to animate a spear made of sunlight. It's an upgraded version of the Great Lightning Spear. The lore states that it is actual light, and there's no other evidence besides how it's drawn that disagrees with it.

 

[Rune_Katashima]

> Also how does "it's not an outlier since fodder have done close" not make since.

I mean, literally read what you're saying. It doesn't make sense. There isn't grammatical consistency. Reword, rephrase. Anything, something.

@Firestorm808 They chose to animate it that way because that's how it is. Make no mistake, they made soul stream. If they made soul stream then Sunlight spear can be faster and also look like hardened light. The fact is, it doesn't. The very fact Soul Stream exists completely negates any argument one could have, "Well, that's just how they animated it."

@Keeweed Not necessarily. Gameplay mechanics are just a translation of events. It's weird that you're bringing this up because your argument comes down to "game mechanics are canon" when universally speaking most people consider game mechanics non-canon. From my perspective though the argument is worthless, for and against. Each game needs to be approached on a case-by-case basis. That's why you can't use a "by that logic" argument.

 

[Firestorm808]

@Firestorm808 They chose to animate it that way because that's how it is. Make no mistake, they made soul stream. If they made soul stream then Sunlight spear can be faster and also look like hardened light. The fact is, it doesn't. The very fact Soul Stream exists completely negates any argument one could have, "Well, that's just how they animated it."

What does Soul Stream have to do with anything?


Dark Souls 3 Surprise Soul Stream-1

Sunlight Spear is specifically stated to be made of light.

Soul Stream has no description regarding its speed.

Even in-game, arrows are super slow compared to what they should really look like, 329 feet per second.

 

[Keeweed]

> Also how does "it's not an outlier since fodder have done close" not make since.

I mean, literally read what you're saying. It doesn't make sense. There isn't grammatical consistency. Reword, rephrase. Anything, something.

@Keeweed Not necessarily. Gameplay mechanics are just a translation of events. It's weird that you're bringing this up because your argument comes down to "game mechanics are canon" when universally speaking most people consider game mechanics non-canon. From my perspective though the argument is worthless, for and against. Each game needs to be approached on a case-by-case basis. That's why you can't use a "by that logic" argument.

No I'm not saying there canon; I'm saying IFrames in dark souls aren't canon thus the chosen undead doesn't use them to dodge. Also it's not an outlier since weaker creatures have preformed hypersonic feats casually and a bell can perform a massive hypersonic feat (calc for the Bell is in the thread)

 

[Keeweed]

Can we also keep in mind that most dodging is due to iFrames? It's a game mechanic. Or we can just say he's invincible for .4333 seconds while performing a dodge :/

^ you were the one who was saying gameplay mechanic effected the chosen undead (but that isn't how gameplay mechanic work that's just how the game recognizes you dodged something, because without IFrames dodging would be worthless because the attack would always hit you)

 

[Overlord775]

it was agreed that any elettricity-based attack that is as strong as a real lightning and that behaves like a lightning should be as fast as a lightning

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Do we not have a Pontiff Sulyvahn profile? this needs to be fixed

 

[Rune_Katashima]

What "lesser creatures have performed hypersonic feats"? Please share. Also, what is the Bell calc?

Overlord that only proves my point more, not that I even agree with it. Since all the lightning spells have variable damage. Not only that the lightning spells don't behave like lightning even a little.

@Firestorm808 (I see the kind of people I debate with now) I brought up soul stream because you tried to make the argument that Sunlight spear only looks that way because that's the way they chose to animate it, implying it is NOT canonically as given. Also implying that the speed of said ability as shown is not canonical, that it must be faster. To which I reply that because Soul Stream exists as an ability that travels much faster than any other AND can be seen as a stream of light... disproves that entire theory.

Sunlight Spear, regardless of what it is made of, travels at the speed of what we see in game. Which is slower than lightning. Same for Lightning spells.

Give me proof it doesn't or you have no argument. I even said you can use the opening cinematic of DS1 to calc it if you want.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Not only that the lightning spells don't behave like lightning even a little.

They conduct in water actually.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Rune The Asylum Demon, aka the first boss in the game, has Hypersonic speed.

This is the Bell calc

 

[Rune_Katashima]

246.633 meters per second is .7 the speed of sound aka not even mach 1 aka not hypersonic. Explain please.

I'm wondering what I am missing here.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Where are you getting 246.633? Its 2582.11m/s

 

[Firestorm808]

@Rune Katashima

Click Expand at the bottom.

Full swing = 5.03m

Time = 0.0199s

Asylum Demon swing circumference = 51.384m

Speed = 51.384/ 0.0199 = 2582.11m/s

Energy = 18532.8*0.5*2582.11^2 = 14.77 Tons

 

[Firestorm808]

@Firestorm808 (I see the kind of people I debate with now) I brought up soul stream because you tried to make the argument that Sunlight spear only looks that way because that's the way they chose to animate it, implying it is NOT canonically as given. Also implying that the speed of said ability as shown is not canonical, that it must be faster. To which I reply that because Soul Stream exists as an ability that travels much faster than any other AND can be seen as a stream of light... disproves that entire theory.

Sunlight Spear, regardless of what it is made of, travels at the speed of what we see in game. Which is slower than lightning. Same for Lightning spells.

Give me proof it doesn't or you have no argument. I even said you can use the opening cinematic of DS1 to calc it if you want.

@Rune Katashima

What calculation or comparison shows that Soul Stream is faster than Sunlight Spear?

I would like to see such a side by side analysis.

 

[Rune_Katashima]

This puts CU at Hypersonic at the high end. Not Massively Hypersonic + or relativistic as his profile implies. Your dodge speed never increases throughout the game, hell, you can't even get a speed boost spell.

@Monarch It does in DS3. That'll suffice for me. Doesn't really behave in many other ways it should. I'm not sure whether to continue using that to discount it or chalk it up to limitations of games. Depends, really. Sunlight spear does too which is not good for it's argument, making it more similar to lightning than just pure light. Still, while cool, doesn't change it's speed calcs at all.

Anyone have any speed calcs that are greater than Asylum Demon's swings? I know there's faster stuff besides lightning spells. Gotta calc that stuff out and make sure you're not just dodging them because of iFrames.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Hypersonic for the beginning of the game

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Lightning conducts in all the games I'm pretty sure

 

[Rune_Katashima]

Hypersonic at the beginning doesn't matter. As I stated your dodge speed never increases.

Which means you're *only* Hypersonic.

 

[Keeweed]

Hypersonic at the beginning doesn't matter. As I stated your dodge speed never increases.

Which means you're *only* Hypersonic.

You ignored the Bell calc and your speed doesn't increase because you are always seeing the world through the chosen undead eyes meaning his reactions and movement speed increased so it would seem the same to him, but to everyone else he would be faster (or it could be chalked up to gameplay mechanics).

 

[Firestorm808]

@Rune Katashima

Did you expect the developers to make some sort of adaptive dodge mechanic that scales to the dexterity stat?

Upgrading dexterity in general already shows that the Chosen Undead gets faster as the game progresses.

 

[Rune_Katashima]

I did ignore the Bell calc because it's irrelevant.

> you are always seeing the world through the chosen undead eyes meaning his reactions and movement speed increased so it would seem the same to him

This is massively headcanon and it's amazing you don't see that.

> Upgrading dexterity in general already shows that the Chosen Undead gets faster as the game progresses.

It does! And that throws Keeweed's point out the window even more. If you level up your Dex and you're able to perceive your spells cast faster then logically you should be able to perceive your dodges get faster, wouldn't you? Wearing lighter/no armor actually DOES increase your dodge speed. See, we have a mechanic for that. We have a way to perceive an increase in speed. So you can't say it's perception based

Since dodging doesn't get any faster than light rolls, I think that about wraps up this argument, doesn't it?

Have you guys noticed that you take some Dark Souls things literally but you cherry pick which things you do and don't to satisfy your headcanon?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

> you are always seeing the world through the chosen undead eyes meaning his reactions and movement speed increased so it would seem the same to him

This is massively headcanon and it's amazing you don't see that.

Ok, so Kratos isn't massively hypersonic, Kirby isn't MFTL+, Sonic isn't relativistic, because if they was we wouldn't be able to see what he's doing onscreen.

No one in Dragonball Z is past superhuman, because if they were we wouldn't be able to perceive their motions. Same with Kill la Kill, etc

You see the problem with what you are saying now?

 

[Rune_Katashima]

Nope, because those are different verses. Not Dark Souls. Wasn't that hard to think past your ill logic, really.

Also, there's a fair number of verses that need toning down on this site anyway. You have Cloud at Solar System level for example.

 

[Rune_Katashima]

Also that's a massively bad argument you used I can't believe you tried it to be honest. Dragonball Z uses animation techniques to imply a greater speed than perception. Dark Souls lays it all bare. It's not even equivalent.

 

[Firestorm808]

While off topic, why do you say Cloud isn't? He did survive Supernova.

 

[Rune_Katashima]

I don't want to delve too deep in to it but Supernova is a summon and it doesn't ACTUALLY destroy the Solar system. Sephiroth can use it over and over again. It's also similar to gravity/demi spells. It always takes a certain amount of your life irrespective of your mdef (I believe it's 9/10ths) which immediately means it doesn't care how strong you are.

Also, because it ends up as more of an outlier. All his previous showings indicate he's somewhere in Tier 7, maybe 7A but now he jumps to 4B? Yeah, hm. Gonna be a skeptic on this especially since I actually know how Supernova works.

 

[Firestorm808]

Didn't Bahamut's Fury, a much weaker boss destroy the moon?

 

[Rune_Katashima]

I don't consider Bahamut Fury a "weaker" boss, but not permanently, still obeyed summon mechanics. As it can do it multiple times and we still have one by VII anyway.

Moon or even star level is still not Solar System level anyway. But yeah.

Bahamut's speed is a non-factor calc. But let me be clear about it. The calc itself isn't wrong and I respect it, but that's BF's *travel* speed. During your fight with it, it's as still as a brick and only moves to do Exaflare (and it's travel speed comes in to play but then again you can't hit it anyway) or to mount the platform you're on, which is done very slowly (compare to how it moves for Exaflare) and isn't relevant to your ability to hurt it or dodge things. So when people bring up VII characters and scale them to BF I just have to ??? Because it's speed is impressive but you're never pitted against it.

In terms of damage it's quite impressive though. Still, small moon level.

You know if these guys were Solar System level Meteor wouldn't be a threat, right?

Edit: If you wish to discuss this more, please message me or whatever or open a new thread. I have no interest in derailing this one.