Dante vs Hoopa

[Delta333]

Till Earl comes back on wiki

It's still quick since I have seen him being active some previous days,I thought this match will last until Meliodas becomes tier 0

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I have been away a long time from here. Which ability are you talking about

I mean hax abilities in general, the kind that usually have their own unique set speeds. Speed equalization equalizing the speed of the opponents themselves is one thing, and thats obviously fine, but I have never seen our standards also apply it to hax that move at uniquely different speeds than the user can move at.

All of those haxxes are not even needed. That intangibility is just to give him margin of error to survive longer.
Also people with AE1 interaction and CM1 aren't able to hit him for 3 attacks. More than enough opportunity to go tag Hoopa.

I mean, sure, but Hoopas rings don't technically qualify as an "attack" per say. And given that multiple legendaries would be summoned forth, the 3 attack protection would quickly run out given the amount of opponents Dante would face (even if anything under the CT gets very quickly dealt with).

More important wincons for Dante were him being loads more skilled and tactical combatant via having sensory capabilities and analytical prediction and in general combat aptitude, that along with DT speed amp 2X and Doppelganger will give him plenty of opportunity to tag Hoopa.

Yes but because of the speed standards, the sensory capabilities shouldnt matter if Dante has no feats of sensing or precoging against infinite speed beings.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Either way this VS thread (as expected) has become a mess, can there be a "tl:dr" of the (viable) win-cons for both characters for those of us that don't want to dive into over 300+ messages?

We are at almost 500 messages btw and my intial question wasn't fully answered, this isn't just for me btw but for other neutral parties watching this thread too.

 

[Sevil Natas]

well it definitely isnt treated that way by the wiki, and it isnt even on the rules page, and that logic defeats the whole purpose of speed equalisation to begin with.
also i've seen that thread, it isnt trying to make Infinite speed still be infinite speed even after equalisation, it just makes so it is relative to the person using it
for example the bullets of a gun would still be faster than its shooter, dantes instinctive reactions and tp still work here
and this all doesnt matter if dante starts with something like time stop or untouchable, which he could do

Pokemon have Non Physical Interaction, so intangibility is irrelevant. Dont need to address that. And im very certain people here before me already argued Dante isn't leading with TS.

said intangibility works on people who could affect AE1 concepts
and also the people that argued that are completely wrong, there's no telling what dante could lead with, in the game iself, every cutscene with a boss doesnt show dante leading with anything

 

[deonment]

it just makes so it is relative to the person using it

yes, relative, if an attack moves twice as fast as it's user then that ratio stays, but this is a thing that is infinitely faster and the ratio would still stay

 

[Sevil Natas]

How long will this match last

it shouldnt be going on anymore since grace ended

 

[Sevil Natas]

yes, relative, if an attack moves twice as fast as it's user then that ratio stays, but this is a thing that is infinitely faster and the ratio would still stay

1-No just because it affected people with infinite speed, doesnt mean it remains infinite speed after being equalised
2-That thread didnt even get concluded so bringing it up here is useless

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

said intangibility works on people who could affect AE1 concepts
and also the people that argued that are completely wrong, there's no telling what dante could lead with, in the game iself, every cutscene with a boss doesnt show dante leading with anything

It is infact in-character, prerequisite being he uses it when overwhelmed,
Hell in this cutscene when he was 19 and more callous ,he used it just for simple defense from dropping stones. 28 yr old Dante is more serious.


Danmaku, crowd, fast characters....all these will help him use that. His general intelligence covers it.

 

[Sevil Natas]

im gonna upgrade DMC to infinite speed out of spite if this keeps up

Hoopas rings don't technically qualify as an "attack" per say.

it is an attack, everything that could be used offensively is an attack

 

[deonment]

im gonna upgrade DMC to infinite speed out of spite if this keeps up

try it, i dare you

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Since my question never got answered, can we just close this thread please?

Further discussion is meaningless and I don't want this thread to fully derail into madness also this.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I mean hax abilities in general, the kind that usually have their own unique set speeds. Speed equalization equalizing the speed of the opponents themselves is one thing, and thats obviously fine, but I have never seen our standards also apply it to hax that move at uniquely different speeds than the user can move at.

I can understand the sentiment somewhat, but I can easliy see the case otherwise.

But say what, why don't you mention which particular hax from hoopa you are talking about so we can see what the deal is.

I mean, sure, but Hoopas rings don't technically qualify as an "attack" per say. And given that multiple legendaries would be summoned forth, the 3 attack protection would quickly run out given the amount of opponents Dante would face (even if anything under the CT gets very quickly dealt with).

Ehhh?
Can you show a clip of that?
Also just to clear, even CT necessarily aren't safe from Dante and his superior CM1, in last Kratos vs Hoopa match they were incapable of getting past his resistance and he himself with single resistance negation layer could affect them.
Dante is far superior in CM1 department.

Yes but because of the speed standards, the sensory capabilities shouldnt matter if Dante has no feats of sensing or precoging against infinite speed beings

Ehhh?? Thats not how it works, just because Hoopa was infinite speed doesn't mean after equalized he would remain infinite speed, senory abilities would work just fine here on predicting Hoopa.

 

[Sevil Natas]

try it, i dare you

you think we're featless but think again PoC is wank incarnate :v

 

[DemonKingAkuto]

im gonna upgrade DMC to infinite speed out of spite if this keeps up

Do it, make daddy Dante OP

 

[deonment]

you think we're featless but think again PoC is wank incarnate :v

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

well it definitely isnt treated that way by the wiki, and it isnt even on the rules page, and that logic defeats the whole purpose of speed equalisation to begin with.
also i've seen that thread, it isnt trying to make Infinite speed still be infinite speed even after equalisation, it just makes so it is relative to the person using it
for example the bullets of a gun would still be faster than its shooter, dantes instinctive reactions and tp still work here
and this all doesnt matter if dante starts with something like time stop or untouchable, which he could do

Which is an if that was, IIRC, argued against here. Either way, I'll make a quick thread to get clarification on that then, as I disagree with this being a thing.

said intangibility works on people who could affect AE1 concepts

You mean people who can affect AE1 concepts can't bypass the intangibility? Which as said above is very limited to only 3 attacks?

and also the people that argued that are completely wrong, there's no telling what dante could lead with, in the game iself, every cutscene with a boss doesnt show dante leading with anything

So this is another case of us having both characters literally using anything.

it shouldnt be going on anymore since grace ended

Which doesn't apply if new arguments come up or if arguments get countered.

im gonna upgrade DMC to infinite speed out of spite if this keeps up

it is an attack, everything that could be used offensively is an attack

The rings themselves and calling things through the rings are not an attack.

I can understand the sentiment somewhat, but I can easliy see the case otherwise.

But say what, why don't you mention which particular hax from hoopa you are talking about so we can see what the deal is.

Hoopas rings and the speed of which they summon things through them operate at infinite speeds since Hoopas rings can drag forth infinite speed beings as low as Rayquaza to as high as the CT, so the rings operate at infinite speeds.

Even if Hoopas speed is equalized to Dante's speed, the speed of the rings should not fall under this as it's uniquely set at infinite speed. Which leads me to the discussion on what speed equalization should and shouldnt apply to.

Ehhh?
Can you show a clip of that?

A clip of what?

Ehhh?? Thats not how it works, just because Hoopa was infinite speed doesn't mean after equalized he would remain infinite speed, senory abilities would work just fine here on predicting Hoopa.

This isn't in reference to Hoopa. This is in reference to Hoopa's rings. My point being, Dante sensing Hoopa with equalized speed is fine, but he wouldnt be able to sense the rings.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

So this is another case of us having both characters literally using anything.

I already countered this. Time Hax is in-character.
But genuinely not needed here. Dante won regardless.

Which doesn't apply if new arguments come up or if arguments get countered.

No new arguements I see.
Not to mention old wincons haven't been debunked.

Hoopas rings and the speed of which they summon things through them operate at infinite speeds since Hoopas rings can drag forth infinite speed beings as low as Rayquaza to as high as the CT, so the rings operate at infinite speeds.

Even if Hoopas speed is equalized to Dante's speed, the speed of the rings should not fall under this as it's uniquely set at infinite speed. Which leads me to the discussion on what speed equalization should

Hoopa himself is infinite speed in his verse, so its infinite hoopa with infinite ring.
So via speed equal, everything becomes FTL+.
Ratio maintained. Rules followed.

A clip of what?

Rings in work.

This isn't in reference to Hoopa. This is in reference to Hoopa's rings. My point being, Dante sensing Hoopa with equalized speed is fine, but he wouldnt be able to sense the rings.

See above.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

No new arguements I see.
Not to mention old wincons haven't been debunked.

The stuff im bringing up is very much new.

Hoopa himself is infinite speed in his verse, so its infinite hoopa with infinite ring.
So via speed equal, everything becomes FTL+.
Ratio maintained. Rules followed.

Okay and as said before, I disagree, since speed equalization should not apply to the speed of hax abilities. Doesnt matter anyway as im making a thread on this to get clarification before things are settled here.

Rings in work.

You mean something that literally everyone here has talked about since the beginning of the thread? And IIRC, even linked here already?

See above.

And also see above.

 

[deonment]

since speed equalization should not apply to the speed of hax abilities

no it does, it just keeps them relative to the user, and in this case, they are a 1:1 match so it gets equalized to the speed that hoopa becomes

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

The stuff im bringing up is very much new.

Oh trust me, Regice argued all of this already. Even if it was flawed.

Okay and as said before, I disagree, since speed equalization should not apply to the speed of hax abilities. Doesnt matter anyway as im making a thread on this to get clarification before things are settled here

First the rings are portals obviously so thats hax I guess, but moving them around using telekinesis isn't any seperate speed statistic of its own. Its literally an extension of his physiology that he controls as he wishes, i.e. physical. It scales to Hoopa's own speed.
Not that it has its own speed rating.

Only haxxes that remain unchanged in speed equalized is Passive Haxxes, which Hoopa operating rings doesn't even qualify as as normal hax, let alone something of its own speed.

Would you still say the same if this was MFTL+, 3C version of fight for both? Does 3C version have speed infinite speed statistics for moving around rings as such. I don't see that.

You mean something that literally everyone here has talked about since the beginning of the thread? And IIRC, even linked here already?

Yes, I already seen and know, just wanted a better explanation from you with some visuals on why you were advocating this bizzare idea of seperate speed statistic when it obviously scales to Hoopa's own speed.

But forget it.

 

[Ballsdeep69]

Till Earl comes back on wiki

He must ressurect Ikki back to his former glory.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

First the rings are portals obviously so thats hax I guess, but moving them around using telekinesis isn't any seperate speed statistic of its own.

Oh no, moving the rings around themselves isn't what I was talking about, just to clear this up. I meant the rings portals being formed and opened.

So like if Hoopa wanted to, say, open a portal behind Dante or underneath him, the thing im saying that should be kept infinite speed is the portal appearing by him.

 

[Delta333]

Should we close this thread since this match has been added?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Oh no, moving the rings around themselves isn't what I was talking about, just to clear this up. I meant the rings portals being formed and opened.

So like if Hoopa wanted to, say, open a portal behind Dante or underneath him, the thing im saying that should be kept infinite speed is the portal appearing by him.

Oh, I see.
Still don't see any difference. It would scale to his own speed anyways. Principle remains same.
Will you be able stake same claim for 3C MFTL+ Hoopa? I don't think so. Its wrong on principle.

If this is all that your counters can measure upto, I don't see any change in verdict.

Should we close this thread since this match has been added?

Yes please.

 

[Delta333]

Already asked for closing

 

[DarlingAurora]

from Hoopa profile.