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D&D: More Revisions (Deities)

Yeah, there is a book often ridiculed by some fans (Guide to Hell), in which Jazirian and her brother Ahriman created the Outer Planes. Both are champions of the alignment of Law (in fact are called the Serpents of Law), but Jazirian is good and Ahriman evil. So, when they fought over whether if Good or Evil is the best alignment to rule the multiverse, they separated (and greatly damaged themselves). Jazirian ended up in Mount Celestia and a greatly weakened Ahriman ended up at the bottom of the Nine Hells. He changed his name to Asmodeus, the devil we all know and love.

They are said (by fans) to be overpower level because they don't need belief to exists or being powerful. Just like Ao or any other overgod.

Source:

Jazirian and Ahriman, part 1
https://i.imgur.com/lkYBx3o.png
Part 2
https://i.imgur.com/65U03jK.png
Part 3
https://i.imgur.com/AQhJHnA.png
On Asmodeus stuff
https://i.imgur.com/Il3zNdK.png
Part 2
https://i.imgur.com/feLkOEO.png
 
Oh, I'm aware of Guide to Hell (and all its weirdness), but I'm just wondering why people use it to say Asmodeus and Jazirian are overpowers simply due to not needing belief when the book itself states they're greater powers. The only reason they don't need belief is because they predate it in the planes, but at the same time they cannot gain power from it. The guide even makes it clear that greater power is Asmodeus/Ahriman's true level, and not the one he's pretending to be. He's very clearly not overpower level, and even more recent editions have driven home the idea of him being a greater power.

"In truth, Asmodeus is a greater power, just like Jazirian. However, the Twin Serpents predate the rule of belief in the planes. They neither gain power from the adoration of mortals, nor lose it from lack of worship. They have no priests and can grant no spells. This only helps Asmodeus convince his enemies that he is not a real power."

It definitely seems to just be one of those misconceptions people create, on their own.
 
Typically misconceptions form from second hand information and games of internet telephone. Plus unlike a lot of series DnD is more prone to homebrew/fan ideas since the game actively supports it.
 
Figures. D&D is definitely prone to that if trying to get info from it from others over the internet, as most of the time, people are just reciting what they vaguely remember as fact and not providing sources.
 
"people are just reciting what they vaguely remember as fact and not providing sources"

Backs away slowly

Yeah, who'd do that, crazy right, not like... the DM just tells us whatever he pleases, it seems... and the books are... a guideline to him... and... yeah...
 
> the books are... a guideline to him

I mean, they're really are meant to be guidelines rather than rules. Plenty of guides say "The DM can change the game to suit whatever the needs are". If a rule hampers game play/fun the books say to just ignore it or adjust it. It does make proper cataloging difficult though. That and the constantly changing and contradictory lore at times.
 
@Foggysniper

Lesser Deities and Demon Lords: Becoming something along the lines of "At least Low 2-C, likely 2-C", for stronger demon lords being able to fully control and warp multiple layers of the Abyss through sheer will

Greater Deities: Remaining 2-A

Lady of Pain and the Serpent (who doesn't have a profile): Becoming either "Likely High 2-A" or just flat High 2-A

Tarrasque: Needs some sort of upgrade, not sure exactly to what

Physical Manifestations of Demon Lords (right now we only have Orcus): Probably need some sort of upgrade, not entirely sure


This is only in regards to tiering, as most of the D&D pages are missing a huge chunk of abilities. As pointed out earlier, Orcus doesn't even have Immortality or Regenerationn listed on his page, yet.
 
Yes, they are missing a lot of hax, like The eye and hand of Vecna can survive from complete erasure and they are just minor body parts (Mid Godly maybe?)
 
Also, this isn't deity related, but it's some stuff that could maybe help solidify the tier of stronger monsters if someone were to calc it.

  • A legendary blue dragon's mere presence has strong enough magic to cause thunderstorms to constantly rage within 6 miles of its lair. This is a six mile radius with the origin point being the dragon's lair, so that's presumably 12 miles in diameter. The minimum requirement for a legendary blue dragon is an adult blue dragon, which is CR 16.
"The region containing a legendary blue dragon's lair is warped by the dragon's magic, which creates one or more of the following effects: Thunderstorms rage within 6 miles of the lair."

  • A legendary red dragon has two notable things. First, it can cause magma to erupt from the ground simply by willing it. Second, it causes small earthquakes for a 6 mile radius around its lair. The minimum requirement for a legendary red dragon is an adult red dragon, which is CR 17.
"On initiative count 20 (losing initiative ties), the dragon takes a lair action to cause one of the following effects; the dragon can't use the same effect two rounds in a row: Magma erupts from a point on the ground the dragon can see within 120 feet of it, creating a 20-foot-high, 5-foot-radius geyser."

"The region containing a legendary red dragon's lair is warped by the dragon's magic, which creates one or more of the following effects: Small earthquakes are common within 6 miles of the dragon's lair."

  • Finally, a legendary white dragon can create blizards within a 6 mile radius of its lair when resting. The minimum requirement for a legendary white dragon is an adult white dragon, which is CR 13.
"The region containing a legendary white dragon's lair is warped by the dragon's magic, which creates one or more of the following effects: Freezing precipitation falls within 6 miles of the dragon's lair, sometimes forming blizzard conditions when the dragon is at rest."

Considering most of these effects span 12 miles in diameter and are literally just a side effect of the dragon living somewhere, I think these could yield solid results for stronger monsters.
 
@Azzy The High 7-C calc for high tiers is based around the Elder Tempest, which has a 10-mile radius storm following it at all times. As for these feats... I think the red dragon one would just fall within 7-C if we are to assume it is lowballed (I've heard that's baseline for a volcano). Unsure for the EQ as it doesn't say how severe, sadly.

As for the white dragon, could I see a scan for that? That might actually change things, temp change feats can get pretty hefty results. Granted, all of this means nothing if we can't get someone to check it, but still.
 
Scan of the blizzard thing I posted above followed by a scan confirming that the dragon's presence is capable of freezing the area if it isn't already so. From pages 103 and 102 of the 5e Monster Manual.

IMG 1909
IMG 1910
 
By the way, is there a reason stuff like the Empyrean and Kraken aren't "At least High 7-C"? That seems to be the accepted end for Control Weather, and those two are well above beings like Planetars (CR 16) and adult Bronze Dragons (CR 15), both of whom use Control Weather (with the Bronze Dragon's being less restrictive than the PC's, as well).
 
Control Weather takes like ten minutes to cast. It was regarded as with minimal prep time. That said, if we can just get someone to look at the Elder Tempest thing, they'll be At least High 7-C anyways, since they'd be on the tier of an Elder Tempest.
 
The Adult Bronze Dragon's variant of Control Weather has no casting time. It simply chooses to activate it once per day within a 6 mile radius of its lair (so it has an extra 2 miles to its overall diameter on normal Control Weather, too).

Would probably be nice to get the Adult Blue Dragon and Adult White Dragon's feats calced as well as both of those are literally just done by the dragons existing and scale to slightly more stuff, over all (especially the AWD, which is CR 13. That's Beholder level).
 
That much is different, but honestly, our Elder Tempest thing is longer range and likely higher. Adult White Dragon's feat could mean a nice bump for all of the verse in terms of strength, and yeah, it'd scale to anything CR 13+ (caster level 7th).
 
Honestly, I'm somewhat skeptical on scaling lair effects to the monsters themselves, since it seems to be a result of magic permeating the land and the magic of the land itself becoming an emanation of the creature.

As proof: the legendary drakes do NOT have this effect follow them wherever they go, simply in their own chosen lair. It would be a prep effect, to wit, and therefore highly suspect to scale from in my humble view.
 
That may be true, and it may not. Basically, we could leave it as "At least High 7-C" (since Elder Tempest isn't in question) and possibly whatever if it comes out higher than they are now.
 
Lair effects are 100% done via the dragon's power in their case, I can tell you that much.

"The region containing a legendary ____ dragon's lair is warped by the dragon's magic"

Most dragons with lairs spend the vast majority of their time there. The dragon's magic is what does the warping; it emanates from the dragon's lair because that's the place where the dragon makes its home. Effects continuing when the dragon leaves do not mean these effects are not attributed to the dragon, as it is rarely gone for long, and the game even specifies that said effects vanish when the dragon is killed, because their magic no longer sustains it.
 
We're not saying it isn't through the dragon's strength, merely that it may have taken time to set up. Which does seem like a possibility, since if it is setting up a lair, that wouldn't be out of the question to set up magical defenses for.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
We're not saying it isn't through the dragon's strength, merely that it may have taken time to set up. Which does seem like a possibility, since if it is setting up a lair, that wouldn't be out of the question to set up magical defenses for.
Click to expand...
I don't know if I'd say "takes time to set up" so much as "its magic takes time to permeate the area". The former implies the dragon is actively doing something, which often isn't the case.

Nobody is saying something like "Blue Dragons excrete the energy of a thunderstorm through their skin every single second". It's more the fact that the excess energy coming off of its being can cause these things once it settles down into a lair, which should not be greater than the energy the dragon actually uses to fight other things.
 
It'd be in question. I'm happy to calc them, but it would be someone else's call to say if it should be applicable (as in, not one of the D&D squad that keeps discussing D&D and D&D stuff).
 
It's worth calcing anyway, just for the hell of it.

The White Dragon's could potentially scale to a few pages we already have if it's applicable and the result is decent, and the Blue Dragon's is a solid back up feat.
 
Wait. No. The page says that the blizzard activates when the dragon rests. That sorta implies it is their energy causing that much, at least- if it is hinged explicitly on their actions, I believe it should be applicable.
 
And yeah, I'll have the calcs done inna bit.
 
The fact that the regional effects end 1d10 days after their death implies it is their innate magic warping the land, to further the point.
 
Xulrev said:
The fact that the regional effects end 1d10 days after their death implies it is their innate magic warping the land, to further the point.
Click to expand...
Yes, exactly. It is their innate magic that is constantly secreted from their being, and the effects quickly end without said magic to sustain it.

I can't imagine the dragon being weaker than the innate magic it emanates just from living somewhere, for a while.
 
Well. White Dragon's blizzard is, as I've done it, Low 7-B+. An upgrade. I'm gonna do Blue rn, wanna add anything in real quick?
 
@Mr. Bambu

Well, a new Control Weather calc might be nice.

I just noticed our current one is based on 3.5's Control Weather, which has a radius of 2 miles.

5e's Control Weather has a radius of 5 miles.

Coincidentally, I just now realized that 5e Storm Giants also use Control Weather. They are also CR 13.

Also worth noting that 5e's Control Weather is an 8th level spell instead of 7th level, but like I said, a CR 13 monster uses it as one of its signature moves.
 
Control Weather PC version isn't of consequence due to prep time AP of other spells. It wouldn't scale to on-the-fly casting, and this Low 7-B+ would, and hopefully, so would the Blue Dragon's, which is also better.

If Blue's stuff comes out as higher than Low 7-B (doubtful), then I can pop it in there.
 
Blue Dragon's would be helpful.

As I think I mentioned earlier, Adult Bronze Dragons have 6 mile radius at-will Control Weather (that also works in-doors), so that may also be worth a calc, as it would scale to CR 15 monsters if it happened to be above or comparable to the White Dragon's blizzard.

The Storm Giant's Control Weather is likely the exact same as the PC's without the cost, so the prep probably still applies there.
 
Btw super good finds boyo. Easy to calc, too, so nice repreive from the fkn Monster Hunter stuff, which is a bugger.
 
I'm glad. Just been flipping through some 5e books to ease my mind.

White Dragon's is especially nice, due to the fact the Adult White Dragon has the lowest CR (and is canonically the weakest) of the Chromatic adult dragons, so it scales to more stuff. Beholders and Storm Giants appreciate it.
 
Yeah. Like I said, it may be best to have their current ratings remain, since technically it is still in question whether or not this is legitimately in a single action (though it seems implied). Better safe than sorry and have another CRT a few months down the road.
 
Fair enough. I'll post this and the other (now supporting) calc of the Elder Tempest on the board. Might be best to personally request they get looked at since at least then its harder to just ignore it lol.
 
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