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D&D: More Revisions (Deities)

What Planewalker is that, Matt? I'm not up to date with 5e stuff, we playe 3.5/2e.

ALSO. High 6-A is an Avatar, as demigods and archdevils are comparable to beings that have the High 6-A feat. Orcus might be an exception, though I'm not sure if the extinguishing all suns thing is in Avatar form due to that was essentially making that another one of his layers, meaning... full power Orcus.

Though the living planet thing may be interesting.
 
Oh. Alright. Nevermind.
 
@Qawsed I'll quickly write up a list of abilities this would mean for each respective god you've linked, cheers. We should also look into making pages for more relevant beings in the verse (Bane, Mystra, Lolth, and so on).
 
Most of the DnD pages are either out of date or missing a lot of powers.
 
Eyup. All gods can regenerate to what point? Like, at least back to their home plane (which goes for Orcus doubly so, what with him being a demon, which can't die outside their home plane iirc). And immortality lol.
 
Ao is not the Overdeity of all of this (each multiverse has an Overpower, apparently). Lumi is the ultimate being of all of this, however. Dunno what that'd mean for him, if a tier change is even needed aside from him being infinitely and transcendentally superior to a High 2-A

Each overpower has only one universe, which are also known as "spheres" or crystal spheres. Spheres can contain anything from a single planet with a moon and a sun, a solar system, a galaxy, or many galaxies, or even an "infinite" plane world. A sphere with its own local version of the exterior planes (parallel, inner, outer, what have you) is a multiverse. (As mentioned in an earlier post, the exterior planes are all shared by all spheres at the same time, but have local manifestations for each sphere, inhabited by the local versions of the gods, demons, etc).

Ao have two spheres (Abeir and Toril). But that is rather an exception to the rule.

All spheres exists within the Material Plane, and the MP is enveloped by the exterior planes. Some editions have the concept of multiple MPs, but is not explained if there are multiple versions of the planes beyond the Material or if all multiple MPs share the same planes.

Also, each overpower has control over one pantheon, but they can only control the "aspects" of their deities within their spheres. Not all gods are multi-spheric, tho.

Within the context of a thread, would all of his opponents not originate from beyond his domain? Seems pretty crippling.

Nope, because in D&D being able to trespass the shell of a sphere is quite the feat. Gods cannot, by raw power, do that. The shells are hard enough to withstand the Phlogiston (raw energy of creation). So, if you want to attack Ao you either need to be inside his sphere (where he is stronger than anything) or by incredibly powerful to do something not even greater deities can (breach the shell of a crystal sphere).

An overpower cannot control a being from other sphere, that its true. But they by no means are totally weak against them. They just have not total control over them, unlike with beings that are from their sphere.

So Ao literally can't be fought unless they originate within the Forgotten Realms

No, he can be fought. He will be just not all-powerful against this individual. As I said in my example, while Ao can crush Toril's Demogorgon just by thinking it (regardless of how powerful Toril's Demogorgon can be), he would have to actually fight against Oerth's Demogorgon, and have chances of either losing or wining (nor an insta-win).

This happens in Dragonlance, for instance, when High God (the overpower of Krynn) had to fight Chaos (a god that comes from the void from which the High God created the universe—something outside Krynn's sphere).

Though the living planet thing may be interesting.

Good ol' Allabar. I can bring its stats, if needed.
 
Oh. Allabar. I've heard of that, I think. Would that scale to Orcus?
 
Zeromaru X said:
No, he can be fought. He will be just not all-powerful against this individual. As I said in my example, while Ao can crush Toril's Demogorgon with a thought, he would have to actually fight against Oerth's Demogorgon, and have chances of either losing or wining (nor an insta-win).

This happens in Dragonlance, for instance, when High God (the overpower of Krynn) had to fight Chaos (a god that comes from the void from which the High God created the universe—something outside Krynn's sphere).
Click to expand...
If this is the case, why is he not "At least 2-A", exactly? Ao in general seems extremely confusing in terms of tiering for the site.
 
Overpowers are really confusing. For instance, in Forgotten Realms there are three overpowers (Ao, Fate and the Celestial Bureaucrat). I don't know how they can coexist.

Oh. Allabar. I've heard of that, I think. Would that scale to Orcus?

It's one of the stronger monsters in 4e. It's a lv.30 solo monster ("solo" meaning he has the power of at least 5 monsters of his same level). I've mentioned in 4e lv. 30 is the cap for players, and they are on the level of demigods. Orcus in base (he has an upgrade in one adventure) is a lv.33 solo monster.
 
If this is the case, why is he not "At least 2-A", exactly?

I never said Ao was not a High 2-A. I just said he will be in the low tier of High 2-A if he fights another High 2-A that has none of his limitations (beings like the Lady of Pain or the Serpent).
 
Zeromaru X said:
If this is the case, why is he not "At least 2-A", exactly?
I never said Ao was not a High 2-A. I just said he will be in the low tier of High 2-A if he fights another High 2-A that has none of his limitations (beings like the Lady of Pain or the Serpent).
Click to expand...
So does this mean the Lady of Pain and the Serpent should also be possibly High 2-A or...?
 
Possibly, yes. LoP and the Serpent are among of the few beings that can reorder the whole D&D multiverse (that includes the "lesser multiverses" of the Material Plane(s) and the external planes).

Though I was talking figuratively.
 
@Qawsed Once we start getting into godly terrritory, I think it might be best to disregard the CR as it would likely not accurately portray the character's power.
 
Zeromaru X said:
Possibly, yes. LoP and the Serpent are among of the few beings that can reorder the whole D&D multiverse (that includes the "lesser multiverses" of the Material Plane(s) and the external planes).
Though I was talking figuratively.
Click to expand...
Well, if they can do that, while Ao is also explicitly restricted in influence to a single sphere, I don't see why those two should have "possibly/likely High 2-A", especially if there's nothing that contradicts it.
 
Looking at Allabar, and disregarding CR for a second since at this point it is largely irrelevant... I doubt Allabar scales to Orcus' avatar form or whatever you'd like to call it. It was a creation of the Primordials, and then added to by the Gods (I'd assume the Greater Deities but eh). It should be 5-B, but no reason to scale it to Orcus.

Side note, how the hell does a planet only have 1100 hp. What is this.
 
1100 hp planet = 4e rogues are planet killers


Also, looking into it, I really think that the Lady of Pain should be High 2-A if we're granting Ao that rating. He's explicitly the Overgod of Abeir-Toril, not "Overgod of all things ever". There are apparently millions upon millions of beings just like him assigned to their own spheres by the Luminous Being.

This genuinely seems to pale in comparison to a being who could reorder and alter every aspect of the entire multiverse. Ao being completely beyond all deities under his influence doesn't make him more impressive than this, especially since the Lady has also killed Greater Deities with a thought.

If Ao is being given High 2-A via being well above Greater Deities who are within his own sphere, there's not really any reason the Lady shouldn't scale to this. At worst, I'd think they're comparable.
 
If the LOP becomes High 2A what will we do about Vecna's Greater God rating?
 
Greater Vecna wasn't really a threat to the Lady, unless I'm misremembering. She just couldn't kill him without wrecking the multiverse, which is what she was trying to prevent. That's why she had the DVD! party do it.
 
Yeah, but he resisted her restricted power and she couldn't kill him without going into her true form. So even if it was using most of his power he was resisting her removal attempts when right after she rather easily rewrote the multiverse. Plus he was using a special magical ritual given to him by the Serpent and was described as a waxing god, so its not PIS either.
 
Since Azathoth is taking care of this thread, I can probably unsubscribe.

If you need help with unlocking pages later, you can place a request on my message wall.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
snip
Click to expand...
At worst, that would just be a feat against her restricted self though, who still killed Greater Deities with a thought. Plus, as you said, he was using a ritual given to him by a being who was treated as a peer to the Lady of Pain. It's not something he could resist just by being a Greater Deity.
 
I doubt Allabar scales to Orcus' avatar form or whatever you'd like to call it.

Well... Allabar and is ilk (the Far Realm-touched stars) are mostly featless in canon. The only star we do know is active in one FR novel is Caiphon, and she only serves as a patron for the warlock protagonist. By lore, we know they are on the same team of the Far Realm elder evils, nothing more. By lore, Allabar should be planet-level.

So even if it was using most of his power he was resisting her removal attempts when right after she rather easily rewrote the multiverse.

Yeah, but the Lady wasn't restricting herself when she repaired the multiverse, unlike when she wanted to expel Vecna. There is a difference there.

Plus he was using a special magical ritual given to him by the Serpent

A being that the adventure states many times, is on the same level of LoP.
 
> At worst, that would just be a feat against her restricted self though

I'm not claiming she's weak for not removing Vecna, I'm saying Vecna is strong for not being removed by her. Plus she fixed the multiverse with her restricted power. So ultimately I was wondering if a "2A, Possibly High 2A" rating would be applicable to him.

Unrelated, but on further reading I think the DnD Greek Gods could be 2A considering they beat the Titans (assuming this myth is true that is).
 
@Qawsedf

I think the defenses be attributed to the power granted by the Serpent, not Vecna himself. I think at most, it would scale to his Greater Deity self's durability with the Serpent boost.

Regardless, I'm pretty sure the Lady's true power should be High 2-A.
 
> I think the defenses be attributed to the power granted by the Serpent, not Vecna himself. I think at most, it would scale to his Greater Deity self's durability with the Serpent boost.

Gotcha


> Also unrelated, but are you going to fuse Magic and D&D stuff? Because WotC is doing it officially...

If it becomes a permant offical thing I don't see why not.
 
If we're considering Lady High 2-A, Dendar (I'm assuming that's the Serpent in question, could be wrong) would also be High 2-A, yes?
 
Well, they are doing all the other Magic settings for free on DM's Guild. They will be releasing Dominaria soon. Tho, dunno if they are going to release D&D stuff on Magic.
 
Are you talking about Merrshaulk proper? Or about the archetype of the World Serpent? Because those are two different things.

The World Serpent is just an archetype of a being that represents totality. The archetype has the shape of an infinitely large multi-faceted and really complex serpent-like being with its tails in its mouths. The idea is that it never ends; if you begin at one part and travel around you will eventually return to where you started. This circular or cyclical view of the multiverse is common to many different philosophies and faiths in the D&D lore (as its explained in Monster Mythology, a 2e sourcebook).

Io (Asgorath), Jazirian and Shekinester (heads of the divine pantheons of draconic, coualt and naga gods) are said to be representations of the World Serpent archetype because of their complexity and power. Merrshaulk is not a representation of this archetype, he's just a deity in decline as it is Blipdoolpoolp (the kuo-toa goddess).

But the World Serpent as worshiped by sarrukh of the Forgotten Realms is a different being (described in Serpent Kingdoms, 3e FR sourcebook). He is just the Sarrukh god, that divided itself in too many aspects that is no more the powerful entity it once was.

Here are the sources:

About Merrshaulk and Blipdoolpoolp
https://i.imgur.com/8GqxwBL.png
About Io and Shekinester
https://i.imgur.com/eHQw7jt.png
Part 2
https://i.imgur.com/zumPcHU.png
About the FR version of the World Serpent
https://i.imgur.com/iY5gJg1.png
Part 2 + lore about FR Merrshaulk
https://imgur.com/iO0TjDC
 
Speaking of Jazirian, does anyone know why people online sometimes refer to her and Asmodeus as being Overgod level? A lot of the lore they bring up is from 2e's Guide to Hell, but said book specifies both of them are just higher-end Greater Powers.

Is it just one of those internet misconception things?
 
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