D&D AP CRT and other fun acronyms.

[Mr. Bambu]

Just a short CRT to confirm everyone can still agree to this.

Proposed Changes
Mid-Tier monsters need AP changes. This is a fact.

And I've been thinking. Low 7-B is not an outlier in this verse. Between CRTs and calc pages, for monsters we have not one, not two, not three, but five calculations either on this level or supporting this level, with one calc being identical between two different breeds of dragon.

So, as of my suggestion. We should not lowball the characters. Low 7-B should be applied evenly to all mortals above CR 13 based on the numerous feats supporting this.

The Feats

• Legendary Dragons have not one but three Low 7-B calculated feats, with one being shared
• Earthquake, which can be used as early as level 13, has a minimum of Low 7-C
• Azzy found a creature in one thread (can't link to the calc) that I further calculated at Low 7-B
• The Elder Tempest feat Foggy found ages ago was accepted at High 7-C at the absolute minimum value I could use

Based on these facts, I believe Low 7-B is consistent enough to apply to all upper mortal tiers of D&D. Here are the affected profiles below.

• Beholder (Just barely in the same threat range as the Low 7-B Legendary White Dragon)
• Elminster
• Mordenkaine
• Drizzt Do'urde
• Krake (His island wiping feat was agreed to be a 7-C estimate as well)
• Empyrea
• Tarrasque (Should be laughably superior to the Low 7-B stuff, but still- I would nearly consider Tarrasque possible for scaling to Abominations, though I am unsure of this)

Concerning the Wizard Page
We really should update it to include many tiers. Namely, the "Wizard" page should be built into a Composite Adventurer page, as in theory every class can meld into each other via Mutli-Classing. A raw Wizard isn't needed when it would be simpler to have an insert for the player, a Composite Adventurer. Additionally, it should be reworked to include the following tiers:

9-B | 9-A | High 8-C | Low 7-B, 6-B via Prep Time | Varies, High 6-A to 5-B | 2-C | 2-A

• Wall level: Base. Scales to Burning Hands and Searing Smite, accepted at 9-B.
• Room level: Starts at CR 5. Scales to Fireball, among others, accepted at 9-A.
• Large Building level: Starts at CR 9. Scales to Sunbeam and Daylight, both of which are High 8-C.
• Small City level+: See above.
• Country level: Scales to the multiple terraforming prep time spells that exist, such as Ice Age.
• Multi-Continent level to Planet level: Avatars since we have accepted that players can become gods. Much like real gods like Lolth and Moradi, High 6-A comes from scaling to the Abomination that heated the core of the world, and 5-B comes from the statement that the Leviathan, just by waking up, can destroy the world- and that only godly avatars can defeat it.
• Low Multiverse level: Lesser god. Scales to the multiple lords capable of bending all of time and space within their spatially infinite realms, some of which can do so to multiple realms.
• Multiverse level+: Greater god. Scales to characters like Mystra, who could damage the entire multiverse with her death.

The latter tiers (5-B, 2-C, and 2-A) were all discussed in the Deities revision thread for anyone curious.

To be frank, this page could use its own CRT considering the absurd amount of abilities would be available to a composite being in D&D, but still.

Sources

• High 7-C Elder Tempest Calc
• Two Low 7-B Dragon Calcs
• Low 7-C EQ Calc
• All relevant low-tier calcs
• High 6-A Avatar Calc
• 6-B Prep Time Calcs

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I definitely agree on the last one

 

[Mr. Bambu]

And the rest of it?

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Looks fine

 

[Udlmaster]

If it is as you say it is, then I whole-heartedly support this, this is very well done.

 

[Qawsedf234]

> Krake (His island wiping feat was agreed to be a 7-C estimate as well)

Personally iffy on this

> Tarrasque (Should be laughably superior to the Low 7-B stuff, but still- I would nearly consider Tarrasque possible for scaling to Abominations, though I am unsure of this)

Depends. The Abominations in 3e were vastly above what the Tarrasque could do, but its not like I can't see it scaling either.

Anyways I agree with the composite Adventurer page.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Qawsed, do you have any issue with the other supporting feats?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Nah. All the spells have been accepted and Adventures by high levels are expected to be able to take out the Phathon and the one Planetary Storm Abomination dude.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Alright. Cool. Even without those as supporting fodder we have more than enough basis for Low 7-B at this point.

And... like I said above, the Composite Adventurer needs tons of love to become viable.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Found a possible tier justifications here . Demigods > Mortals to such a degree they can't tell the difference between them and Greater Gods. Although the part about spell limitations may have been re-retconed so I'll have to check it out

 

[Qawsedf234]

Nope, checked it out and 3e says Demigods can grant a cleric any level of spell. Although its a contradiction compared to 1e and 2e from my memory.

 

[Antvasima]

I also think that this seems reasonable.

 

[Dragonstitch]

I agree with the low 7-B stuff. Also I do like the composite adventurer idea, and if the idea does happen. I would be willing to look though some 4E stuff. Since There are some epic destinies that should give good stuff toward that.

As well there are feats like Paladin's Truth, where the paladin's attacks Ignore resistances and immunities when attacking a taget that is marked by them.

 

[Foggysniper]

Looks good to me.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Dragonstitch The composite Adventurer would be a very, very, very large undertaking with a lot of abilities to consider.

@Foggy and Ant Alright, noted. I think this can be added, then? The Low 7-B implementation, I mean.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Composite Adventurer will be super fun...

 

[Antvasima]

@Mr. Bambu

I suppose so, yes, or do you think that it would be best for Azathoth to take a look at this first?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Probably. I messaged him concerning the upgrades a long time ago, but I'll leave him a message now that the CRT is up.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Mmhmm. No problem.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I also agree with Low 7-B mid-tiers, as I have expressed before.

The Empyrean is extremely hard to judge for me, because I don't know where it should be, lore-wise. Certain ultra-high CR monsters in 5e are left very vague in where they're supposed to stand in terms of power. I'm pretty sure the Empyrean is, at absolute minimum, "At least Low 7-B, likely far higher", but I'd like to look into some of its lore.

90% sure the Tarrasque has some absolutely ridiculous power displays/statements in stuff like dragon magazine, but I still need to look into it. Regardless, I can almost guarantee it scales far beyond the Low 7-B stuff, so its page should still be under construction, for now.

Composite Adventurer is a good idea, but holy shit I have no idea where to even begin.

 

[Antvasima]

@Azathoth

Thank you for the help.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Like I said, the Tarrasque is considered the ultimate monster, so I'd like to see a CRT for it if someone can compile feats.

Empyreans? Maybe. But as of CR 13 and higher (creatures like Legendary Dragons and Beholders) should be Low 7-B. Stuff that is massively above that can be "At least Low 7-B, likely higher" or whatever- that'd include creatures like Tarrasque, Empyrean, and Kraken, since Kraken is literally twice the CR of the Legendary Dragons in question.

I can edit the profiles since everyone seems agreed upon for the Low 7-B thing.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems fine.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Definitely. I'm pretty sure one of the issues of Dragon flat-out states it can destroy the planet, but I'd need to look into that.

That was strictly for stuff like Empyreans and Krakens, yes. I say this because 5e is really kinda weird with CR (though, to be fair, so is pretty much every edition). Solars (CR 21 compared to the Empyrean's CR 23) are supposed to be powerful enough to frighten demon princes, and this is the same edition with extensive lore about those guys sucking entire planes into the Abyss, so I'd like to see if Empyreans actually have any lore to provide a more consistent power level. Things like the Kraken are, to my knowledge, more often just treated as "really ******' big monsters".

Seems fine.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

CR definitely becomes weird in some instances. I've heard a story of an Allip (CR 2) of being able to take down much higher tier monsters due to hax (It is non-corporeal and sucks intelligence, effectively killing your mind).

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Any matches on the proposed pages will have to be removed from both profiles due to tier shifting, is that alright?

 

[Udlmaster]

CR definitely becomes weird in some instances. I've heard a story of an Allip (CR 2) of being able to take down much higher tier monsters due to hax (It is non-corporeal and sucks intelligence, effectively killing your mind).

I think that's the perfect example on what Hax are, like, for further examples, I'll use that example because it makes a lot of sense for even those who don't know much about how Hax can kill stronger beings.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Tbf the Empyrean is the child of a God. It being stronger than a Solar isn't to weird considering that.

 

[Udlmaster]

Wouldn't that put him as Demigod ro a Quasi-God in the Divine rank system, the reason I use it is just as a measuring stick.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Using the system it'd be a Quasi or Hero deity without going into individuals (so Divine Rank: 0). You have to have worshipers or be granted divine power to ascend to even a Demipower (for example Hercules was noted as ascending in recent memory indicating that he wasn't born as a Demipower ).

EDIT: More statements about them being Quasi-Gods

 

[Mr. Bambu]

So Empyreans might as well get their own CRT, then?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Dunno. Unlike Demigods they're sorta vague and don't have much to scale from. At least for someone like Hercules he's has a few statements about his power (Quasi-Deity Hercules for example was famous throughout the multiverse and is considered to be one of the strongest mortal beings to have walked the Materiel Plane ). The Empyreans lack that sorta stuff to my knowledge. The most they would warrent is something like "At least Low 7-B" or something.

 

[Antvasima]

Any matches on the proposed pages will have to be removed from both profiles due to tier shifting, is that alright?

Yes. That is fine.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The [lightning calc was accepted]. Should bump up all of the non-infinite speed profiles.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

For now. Any being rated at 9-B in the verse would not scale, the spell is higher tier than them. They'd scale to Subsonic arrow dodging.

The only profile under this is the baseline Ogre.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Ao being High 2-A is legit but the justification is weird

It should be changed to "Is on a higher level of existence than, and exists outside the ranking system of the gods, to the degree he is immeasurably superior to all of them combined"

 

[Udlmaster]

Well, basically, he's stated to be an Overdeity, the only one that has been comfirmed in the entire series.

As well he also got rid of all the power that the Gods had, Demi-Gods to Greater and took their powers away then reassigned them their status.

He is also stated with being able to both destroy them all with their power and recreate them with a single thought.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Nah, there's three or four other named Overgods.