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EXPLAIN YOURSELF
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Cyberpunk Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Phoenks
- Start date
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For the last couple years Cyberpunk has had this ARG thing going on with the Witcher universe. Don't know much about it though.
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Some 4th wall/metafictional stuff recently discovered which is kinda funny
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ok,basically,nothing at all
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Nah 4th wall/metafictional stuff can be tier 1 (as here it's a canonical entity within the story of cyberpunk and literally erase a dude from existence) but there's not enough info on the being(s) to make a profile IMO it's just cool speculation.
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Anyways here's my current V sandbox. I'll tackle the various Cyberware later when I think of a way to include the limitations of it.
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So I might be downgrading Adam smasher, David, and V's 8-B rating and Class G LS
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All stars must eventually burn out.
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Wanted to talk to you precision since one of the calcs is yours
See what you think
The basis is that the attack David did was over an area and the inverse square law negs alot of the force smasher is actually tanking
Basically Smasher would only be scaling to the portion of the wave he tanked which going by normal human body surface area is around 2 m^2 which negs the result by a large amount.
Similar to how we do explosion calcs
Do you or any other calc members agree with this reasoning?
See what you think
The basis is that the attack David did was over an area and the inverse square law negs alot of the force smasher is actually tanking
Basically Smasher would only be scaling to the portion of the wave he tanked which going by normal human body surface area is around 2 m^2 which negs the result by a large amount.
Similar to how we do explosion calcs
Do you or any other calc members agree with this reasoning?
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I dunno if we use inverse square law for gravitational crushing attacks... not from what I've seen anyway. For explosions, it works. So I dunno if I should be commenting in that regard..
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We do it for black holes and the like (See dragonball and Yuki's black hole)
Plus it doesn't change the fact that this attack was done over a wide area and the actual per meter AP value is much much lower than the entire area affected's AP
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Inverse Square law is for omnidirectional forces/energy though. It asserts that the further you are from a force, the weaker it becomes. Gravity crush is just a downward force. It doesn't spread out like an explosion evenly in all directions like an explosion or the gravitational waves of a Black Hole do.
What you're talking about regarding force acting over an area is a wholly different problem altogether.
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Well yes, I understand that
I'm making a comparison in regards that the downwards force is over an area and thus can't fully be scaled to a character within said area
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I'd like to see what other calc members think but I'm faily certain the full value that was found can't be used to scale directly to Adam Smasher
I'll make a post in the calc group discussion thread to see if my point is justified
I'll make a post in the calc group discussion thread to see if my point is justified
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I suppose? However I feel this would be the equivalent of saying someone doesn't scale to the shockwave of a punch if said shockwaves from a punch are like, 6-B for example. But on the wiki, we'd scale characters directly to the shockwave instead of using the pressure exerted over their surface area.
That said, David withstood his own gravity attack, and the gravity harnesses on his suit were meant to withstand the full forces of the grav-attacks. And Adam... smashed them pretty easily. Pun intended.
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For this it would be more that Smasher only scales to the crater David made with him rather than the larger Militech craters.
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I'm not the best at arguing points so I'll just leave it up to calc members after this but this doesn't seems to be a great comparison.
In this situation there no center point that receives the full force of Davids gravity crush like a punch, instead it's spread out over an area and an amount of force sufficient to crush both metal and stone is produced
The "AP" of the attack is fully dependent on how big David decides to make the area as you can see by the calculation for the two different craters he created
With that in mind Adam Smasher isn't spread out over the 1000+ M^2 of area that the attack occupies
Instead he is relegated to just the area he occupies, which we could treat as either his surface area or volume
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I get that. I just don't see why David wouldn't use the full force of his gravity attack against Adam Smasher who murdered one of his friends (Rebecca), was going to kill his girlfriend, and was beating the snot out of him while he pushed himself to a new level to protect Rebecca... Just seems like the same force concentrated in a smaller area since large AoE was unnecessary at that point.
I was talking about the shockwave of a punch. Not a direct punch.
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That argument isn't useable for feats like this. Since Smasher isn't the size of a building any excessive range regarding the gravity crush would be a useless expenditure of energy.
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Then to be honest, David shouldn't even have an AP or Lifting Strength rating based on his gravity manipulation as the strength of it is solely dependent on the area if acts over. Against a microscopic character with normal human durability, it won't even phase them by that logic. I think the logic proposed here is enforcing rules on this a bit too harshly. It just seems like David controls the same amount of force which he can concentrate on a smaller area or a larger area.
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His AP/LS would just be the minimum it's shown to act over. Which afaik is still Tier 8 and Class G.
Also surface area would still impact it. Smasher physically isn't large enough to take the all the energy.
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The point I'm making is the AP and force of the attack are entirely dependent on the area he decides to apply it to, it can vary dramatically.
We do now at the very least the wave emits rock pulverizing levels of force per cm
Here's an example:
A character pushes his hand hard enough to pulverize a wall, thus he must be emitting 214 j/cc * whatever his hand surface area is (Lets say 10 cm^2
This equals 2140 newtons of force
Cool, he can emit Peak Human levels of force
So that must mean that 1 cm^2 of his hand also presses with 2140 Newtons of force right?
And if we know that 1 cm^2 = 2140 Newtons then we can just multiple by his hand surface area to find his full force
2140 * 10 = 21400 newtons or Class 5?
As you can see the force is relative to the surface area of the object
What your doing in this calculation is taking the total force emitted over an area and applying it to a much smaller area and saying it's the same, which it's not
I'm not trying to insult you btw with this example I know your a very talented calculator but this is just me trying to explain as simply as possible so that others can see where I'm coming from
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It'd be about 50x less than what he currently scales to IIRC
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Yeah, it'd only be Tier 8 destructive capacity. But it wouldn't be applicable against opponents who are smaller than the area he effects. His AP would be rated as Tier 8, but a dude who has a surface area of like, say 0.5 m^2 is going to take far less than Tier 8 damage.
I don't get why we can't assume that the 8-B energy is distributed equally across every square meter it acts on.
Nah, nah. I understand. I just feel this method can be a bit restrictive if we enforce it like this. It's more of a nitpick on my part. I personally wouldn't call myself a talented calculator tbh, lol. Just copy what I see other people doing. So a talented copier if anything.
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Because the 8-B energy is the result of spreading it over a much larger area
And unlike in situations where people kick someone into a crater we cant say all that energy comes directly from the gravity since the gravity is just a static constant over an certain area
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If everyone else is fine with it, I'll go along with it but...
How would this be treated in a versus match? This essentially means from now on, we have to calculate the force acting on a person on every person in a versus match-up since the force acting on them will be different depending on size. The force acting on Godzilla will be different from the force acting on Ant Man.
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Just to showcase what the downgrade would be like I'll do the math here and assume Smasher has a surface area of 2.96 m^2
LS: ((2960000 * 214)/9.8)/1000 = 64636.73469 Tons (Class M)
AP: 633.44 Mpa * 2960000 cm^2 = 1.8749824 * 10^9 Joules or 0.44 Tons of TNT (8-C)
Actually it looks like the wave is also capable of pulverizing steel so lets use that for an end
LS: ((2960000 * 655)/9.8)/1000 = 197836.7347 Tons (Class M)
AP: 1938.8 Mpa * 2960000 cm^2 = 5.738848 * 10^9 Joules or 1.37 Tons of TNT (8-C+)
LS: ((2960000 * 214)/9.8)/1000 = 64636.73469 Tons (Class M)
AP: 633.44 Mpa * 2960000 cm^2 = 1.8749824 * 10^9 Joules or 0.44 Tons of TNT (8-C)
Actually it looks like the wave is also capable of pulverizing steel so lets use that for an end
LS: ((2960000 * 655)/9.8)/1000 = 197836.7347 Tons (Class M)
AP: 1938.8 Mpa * 2960000 cm^2 = 5.738848 * 10^9 Joules or 1.37 Tons of TNT (8-C+)
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8-B always felt like an unreasonable jump in power to me. 8-C feels far more reasonable.
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You made a mistake. You're using Adam Smasher's full surface area. But the gravity is only acting downwards. It's not acting on his entire body from every angle. You'd need the surface area of only small parts of his body. Like the top of his head. His shoulders, top of his feet, and that's pretty much it.
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I would say it is acting on his entire body from every angle considering, ynow it's gravity
In fact I'm pretty sure I could get away with using volume on this calc
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It's acting downwards. From top to bottom. If it were all pressing inwards at Adam, the ground wouldn't have been compressed at all. It's not like Adam is deep under the water where that would be happening. Using his whole surface area greatly exaggerates the result.
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Yes but is a gravity field, it doesn't behave like a normal directional blast
Gravity doesn't impact half your body it exerts its effect over every single part of in all at once and pulls it downwards
If he's in the field and the field affects the entirety of his body I feel it's fine to use his entire body SA if not his entire volume
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I can't recall if it was stated to be a gravity field. But I recall it just just be a very strong downward force as opposed to acting on every part of the body. Otherwise, the stuff getting crushed wouldn't be flattened downwards. But flattened inwards.
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Adams profile describes it as this, both your calcs describe it as this, the entire time we were arguing about it you never once brought up the fact that it wasn't a gravity field.
Even the wiki describes it as increasing the gravitational field in a certain area
What gives?
It being a gravity field doesn't mean it needs to go only omnidirectionally inwards
It's fiction
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I mean it has been a while since I looked at the calcs.
I would normally be fine with the its fiction excuse, but the whole reason we're here to begin with is because we're injecting reality into fiction. When it comes to that, I like to go the full way. Not throw it out the window when it starts to inconvenience a calc or smth.
That said, would you even be able to use volume for this? I don't think the force acting on something is measured by pressure over a volume.
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This is the way the wiki has done it for ages we inject real world math into a fictitious setting even if it goes against certain narratives
I wish I could explain in detail but I'd rather just make the CRT tomorrow and just get it approved
You can debate it out there
That's why I'm not 100% certain about using it
Alternatively we could find Adam's mass and use that at least for LS
Might upgrade it a little
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Could you
Use the currently used Class G LS feat, find the Newton per Square Meter value (Divide the LS by the area in my calc), apply that to Adam's weight and solve for PE?
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Which is fine but... you can't use the excuse "It's fiction" when you're arguing real physics to apply something. If that were the case we'd scale Adam to the full yield of the gravity attack because "It's fiction".
