Right looks like a tacticle revolver of some type. Probably a 357 Magnum which achieves top velocities of 655.32 m/s (Averaged)
Oh, my mistake. I meant the right picture. With the big guy and the giant gun. Unless that is the same gun as the ones in the left that the guys in the armor are using. Though it looks a LOT bigger, so I figured not.
I dunno. They don't look too similar. I feel it looks closer to an LMG than a Heavy Machine Gun, no?
Ah. Thought you meant the soldiers on the left. Mb. Since it's apparently a machine gun, should I use the muzzle velocity of that, or a P90 because of its appearance?
Do two ends so the calc members can decide
Huh, didn't know we considered all tech weapons traveling at that speed. But I'll definitely consider that. I'll make two ends.
Yup and that's actually older tech weapons moving at those speeds in the blog so go for it
Tech weapons Hypersonic speed? Or the least feat? If so, there's now two relativistic feats. The one in David vs Adam Smasher, and the one from before that I redid.
The Adam Smasher one definitely isn't Relativistic. You can hear his gun firing while in slow motion and see bullets be ejected, meaning the timeframe is happening fast enough for the gun to cycle rounds.
Saying it definitely isn't relativistic is dishonest. Many things move at inconsistent speeds in the time slow scenes of the show. You'll sometimes have regular people moving faster than things they shouldn't even come close to. Sometimes they'll be frozen. Sometimes some things move in a scene and some things don't. The fact that the muzzle flash stopped moving after traveling a certain distance and we don't see the bullet moving after means the muzzle flash was initially faster than the bullet, and then by the time it decelerated to the bullets speed it froze up. This is like trying to argue that the amp isn't even Massively Hypersonic in the scenes where bullets barely move because the bullet can leave the barrel of the gun, which would make the feat substantially slower. Clearly not all of this is thought through clearly and you're meant to suspend disbelief to some extent. Unless you wanna argue the bullet moves a hundred times faster right before it leaves the barrel but the moment it does it decelerates to be tens of times slower out of nowhere. So I think this is being overly nitpicky about something Trigger clearly didn't think about. Not to mention, I pixel scaled the first shot Adam Smasher fired before he activated his Sandevistan and started ringing out more shots.
It was from a distance of like 20-60+ meters away to my memory. They also don't statue the bullet but barely move out of the way before it hits them.
It's not dishonest, I gave a valid reasoning for it.
That's a prime example of speed inconsistentcy. Just taking the absoutle highest end and only using that when the show itself is inconsistent is a bad idea. David's Sandevistan can range from subsonic to Rel, but the consistent rang is MHS to MHS+. Picking a high end feat that contradicts other source material shouldn't be the norm here.
So we don't suspend our disbelief when it fits an agenda but do when it does? These are all fan calcs and nothing is official. If a calc had issues they have issues.
You're being overly aggressive here for some reason. I'm dismissing it because this isn't a franchise dedicated to a Netflix anime. It's a multi-faceted franchise with multiple canon sources and the anime has inconsistent speed levels.
Nope, only 2 meters away and without the use of a Sandevistan (When you have reflexes 8). And of course they don't statue it. They don't even use the Sandevistan in the feat as far as I'm aware. They just dodged it from up close.
I don't disagree with you presenting evidence. The problem is that Trigger inconsistently depicts speed within Sandevistan time, so your reasoning isn't the only viable reasoning. I gave my own reasoning on why the relativistic end WOULD be viable logically. I think your proposition is fair, but it feels dishonest when the feat can be interpreted in so many different ways that are all viable due to the inconsistencies in the time slow. Like rain falling faster than bullets travel in time slow. That shouldn't be possible at all, but it happens.
I haven't really seen any subsonic showings in the show tbh. Aside from the scenes where we see him from an outside perspective. But the feat would easily be supersonic if we saw it in his slow-mo PoV. But I get what you're showing. I always interpreted the speed discrepancies as David being able to toggle or adjust the slow-mo affect to certain level since he might not always want the fastest boost. The consistent range is just MHS. There's only 1 or 2 MHS+ at best. If you believe that is consistent, then I don't see why you wouldn't think Relativistic isn't when there's 1 or 2 relativistic feats. The gap between MHS and MHS+ is smaller sure, but it's not like the gap between the MHS+ feat and Relativistic is super massive either. The gap is like a little over 140x at most. Which isn't all that big in the grand scheme of it. It's not small sure, but I don't think it's to a point where it can't even be considered. And it's not like I took the absolute highest highball possible. I know methods I could take to wank the value way higher. I only create ends that I think have merit to them. Including low-ends and high-ends since both seem feasible.
Actually, as far as the blood stuff is concerned, it actually does make sense. Anything hit by David or Adam Smasher is gonna carry a portion of their momentum and thus move at a good portion of their speed. So that can actually be explained away. You don't see rounds being ejected. You see the muzzle flash, yeah, but you don't see any bullet movement (Pretty sure Muzzle Flash is WAYYY faster than a bullet at first but seems to decelerate quickly in Edgerunners). The gun has to cycle for the Sandevistan to be useful to any extent. Otherwise they'd have to rely on just fists. To me, it just seems like the gun cycles at somewhat relative speed to the user for the sake of it not being useless in time slow. I don't think there's any reason we can't assume the bullet travels way faster when in the barrel and cycles faster so guns aren't entirely useless for sandevistan to be useful. Otherwise you'd have 3 bullets jammed in the barrel due to not moving fast enough to leave the barrel. It would make sense why the bullet freezes only once it's left the barrel.
Apologies, I'll admit I was intentionally a bit aggressive. But only because I feel you always shut my ideas because you have a VERY strong opinion against Relativistic speed. As if it isn't possible even if several feats say so and like intentionally taking the lowest interpretation possible even if it makes less sense than the high-ends. It admittedly gets frustrating.
Edgerunners due to being an Anime is inconsistent with pretty much any other depiction of the Sandevistan in the Videogame and TTG. I'm starting to think it'd be a better idea to just separate the canons into their own pages at this rate. The videogames and TTG don't seem to come close to MHS-MHS+ with the Sandevistan from what I've heard. If not, I think we should be a bit more flexible even if it doesn't go consistent with standards set in the other media because this is a different media with different rules/limitations set.
And I strongly disagree with the misrepresented bit. All the scene entails is that the rotation of rounds in Adam Smasher's gun is way faster than the bullet once it's left the barrel. And that the muzzle flash is faster than the bullet by a large amount (Which makes sense all things considered. It is an explosive flash of light). The fact that the muzzle flash froze after traveling a certain distance despite being > the speed of the bullet means that the bullet had to be frozen in place as the light would decelerate to a speed equal to the bullet before freezing (Since if the bullet was moving, then the muzzle flash would've also been moving in slow-mo since it would've decelerated to that level of speed first before stopping). The only problems come about when you don't turn your brain off and question the mechanics of everything. Guns work faster so they aren't useless for Sandevistan users, I personally think it's as simple as that. Since guns are very useful in verse and would make the Sandevistan class one of the most useless if guns wouldn't even function properly (i.e., pressing the trigger would cause a very delayed primer reaction that they'd have to wait seconds for instead of it just occurring instantly. Bullets would be stuck in the barrel for seconds and they'd need to stand there in place, etc.).
Apologies from me again too. I'll admit I'm being a bit immature which isn't very in-character for me. I get that you appreciate my calcs, it jut feels very dismissive towards me and my opinions when you state that they're impossible and make no sense. It makes me feel like you're insulting my intelligence for even feasibly viewing a feat in a certain light. It feels overly critical.
The evasion roll is Dex + Evasion + d10 vs the shooter's Ref + weapon skill + d10. At 14 you're only guaranteed to avoid an attack at 26-50 meters and that's assuming the person shooting had no ability score. To dodge a point blank shot is rather difficult.
You're admitting it's inconsistent then you're acknowledging we should only take the highest end, which doesn't make sense. In the Smasher scene a normal rocket moves in visible motion along with the other things I mentioned. It's only Rel if you ignore everything that could make it slower.
1: A 140x gap is absolutely massive
That's the issue with the Sandevistan in both the Anime and in 2077. The only weapons that work with the top tier Sandevistans are melee weapons and tech weapons. Everything else fires one bullet that doesn't move and the gun can't properly cycle due to the speed.
The Sandevistan is a neural spinal infusion. It's not the speedforce.
That line of reasoning doesn't work with a fan calc. Since either entirely relies on turning your brain wrong. In addition to the other issues in that scene.
If PL, the upcoming novel or any of the comics give it, yeah. If it's just Edgerunners I don't think it's a good idea.
I don't know the specifics of the TTG, but from the calc it sounds like it's possible, but just hard to dodge tech weapons up close. While 26-50 just makes it guaranteed. I think that's grounds to scale it to reactions at the very least (but maybe not combat speed). And that is without a top of the line Sandevistan, right? I don't know much about the TTG.
I didn't say we should only take the highest end. I said we should take the highest end in this case since it makes the most sense. There was some calcs I made for the Sandevistan where I opted for the lower end as opposed to the high-end. And there's nothing wrong with the rocket moving. It just means it's faster than Adam Smasher's HMG. And it's not like the rocket was moving normally. It was also moving very slow, whereas the gun wasn't moving at all. Heck, I could calc the speed of the rocket based on that scene. The other stuff such as blood and what not carry some of David's momentum and thus move faster than anything that didn't come into contact with David. Ofc anything David comes into contact with during his use of Sandevistan is gonna move. Because they carry a portion of his speed. This is the case in like any slow-motion scene ever.
I think it's big. But absolutely massive I think would be outliers that are like thousands of times above any previous feat. Tho admittedly this is subjective. Since you could argue that the 10x gap between David's second strongest fear (Large Building level) and strongest feat (City Block level+) is a absolutely massive gap.
In 2077 that's not true. In two of the feats I did, two non tech weapons fire multiple rounds when used by a Sandevistan user. But I'm curious now that you bring that up. Can you send me a clip of them only firing one bullet that doesn't move?
I'm not saying the Sandevistan amps the bullet. I'm saying that the bullet is at its fastest while it's still in the barrel. And that when it leaves the barrel, it moves at regular muzzle velocity. That would explain why the bullets can move fast enough to leave the barrel, but basically freeze the moment they leave the barrel. I don't think it's too hard to believe the bullet is at its fastest while it's in the barrel.
There's issues in almost every scene like I said. You could lowball all the Sandevistan scenes to hell and back to have subsonic to hypersonic Sandevistan at best due to the inconsistencies. It makes sense to pay attention to the stuff it slows down the most because that's meant to best display how much it slows stuff down.
Honestly, if PL AND the upcominc Novel gave Relativistic feats, then I think it should just be a straight out rating. Not a possibly, lol. But maybe that's just me. I think if all the proof we have is two feats in Edgerunners, possibly works. Since possibly doesn't NEED to be concrete. If it happens in two other medias, then I think it would just be consistent enough to give a flat rating.
In RED the Sandevistan only gives you a bonus to acting first in combat rather than a flat reflex boost.
This is the same rocket he uses on V which doesn't move that fast. Smasher doesn't exist in a vacuum, he has another appearance right after Edgerunners.
Sure, whenever I get the chance I'll screen grab something from my game.
A bullet is faster before it leaves the barrel, but it's no so fast that it would move in conjuction with something moving at Relativistic speeds.
Which is exactly my point. We can't arbitrary only go with the highest versions of feats. Especially when Edgerunners has varying levels of speed.
Well, yeah you're right. I was just answering your question regarding the rating.
You are correct. I redid the game with vanilla and things with a high rate of fire can cycle through, but slower items like pistols cannot.
Oh, weird. But makes sense. So it's more of a priority boost. Still, I'd imagine if one can with difficulty dodge a smart weapon from 2 meters away without a Sandevistan, then with a Sandevistan boost could dodge it relatively easily from the same range.
I mean, projectile speed in video games are kinda weird tbh. I imagine they want to make it dodgeable. Would be kinda unfair if it just instantly hit the player with no chance of dodging whatsoever. Things gotta be balanced after all. And it's not like the missile is moving at Relativistic speeds in that scene. It's still significantly slower than David. It'd prolly be High Hypersonic or MHS at best.
Thank you. Depending on how slow gunshots move, it might be worth calcing.
I'm not saying it's moving in conjunction. Just fast enough to travel the distance of the barrel fast enough for it to be practical for a relativistic user. I.e. In around a second or less from the users perspective. Fast enough for them to at least shoot someone, walk over to someone else and shoot another person like the Cyberpsycho from Ep. 1 who headshot multiple police officers. David's clearly moving than the bullet in the feat, but it moves fast enough to escape the barrel and then decelerate and freeze.
It's not really arbitrary tho. The animators aren't gonna pay attention to every little detail, and are gonna focus on slowing down/freezing certain things to best demonstrate how much of an affect Sandevistan has on its surroundings. If you see bullets slow down to a near half, but rain is faling at a walking pace, you'd use the bullet as reference. Not the rain. As the animators clearly intended for the bullets to be a demonstration of how potent the time slow is in said hypothetical scene.
So you'd be fine with just a possibly rating for Relativistic for only the top tier Sandevistan users? If so, that seems like a fair compromise. It could be written as
I made a mistake. I was saying that's not true in Edgerunners, but glad I made that mistake so you could make that discovery. It shows that the weapons fire rate is only somewhat relative to a point it can cycle another round faster than the rounds travel after leaving the barrel.
The explosions actually were statues in the scene. But only for a little. After a few seconds we see they were instead just moving really slow. And David was able to get Maine's arm and escape the room as it was blowing up which would easily get MHS+ results (possibly low relativistic). I might actually try my hand at calculating that feat now that you've mentioned it.
Hm I actually could have some stuff
What'd ya have?
Idk I feel like a lot would need to be done to remedy this cause the highest possible grade sandevistan is a 10x amp it doesn't get any higher than that so we'll really need a shit ton of support for all the other speed tiers which would need upgrades for this to work
V has some environmental destruction shit that can maybe be scaled to physicals and also we can calx LS from the Super jump shit and ripping open some doors or turrets off their mounts
I think it'd cause less narrative issues to say that the Sandevistan isn't actually just a 10x amp. No 10x amp would let you statue someone comparable to you like it does for David or any other Sandy user in the Anime. Maybe 10x is a lower bound or something. Though for what it's worth, if the highest end of this calc got accepted, they'd have Mach 28 reactions which with a 10x amp would be 280x SoS. Which falls in the MHS range.
Interesting. I think for lifting strength, we can calc David redirecting the force of the rocket propelled harpoon he caught. Just not idea what the speed of a rocket propelled harpoon WOULD be. If I'm remembering correctly, there's some mechs or something of that vein in 2077 which you can blow up with explosives. The frag value of that might be good given they seem to be made of a good amount of steel.
Oh shit good to know and idk that could blow up the LS cause of the speed
We wouldn't use the speed David travels at to calc force. We'd be using the speed of the harpoon without outside influence. It prolly only travels at subsonic to supersonic speed at most. Rocket propelled stuff usually travels in that range. Calc'ing the speed using the Mach 400 figure I calc'd would definitely inflate his LS. To Class M or G range I imagine. The problem is finding the speed of the harpoon since I don't think a real life equivalent exists.
I didn't miss it that's not even a thing in the game ATM its coming in the new update in September
Sorry, let me be a bit more specific. There are enemies that have been in the game since day 1 that can block attacks with katanas.
