CTR Fairy Tail

[Davidsteel1]

Chelia I don't think works very well as a comparison. Not everyone in the world can use magic only 5% I think can, those who can't don't outright die because of this. I guess I may be being a bit technical with this but being unable to use magic doesn't mean you do not have magic in you at all, the distinction is important for this argument.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

@CNB

The X balls aren't like chakra pills that give you magic, they just unlock and allow you to use your magic. Magic is not life force and the only thing in the entire manga to even slightly suggest this is Layla substituting her magic for Aquarius' key and getting a terminal illness as a result. Going to/from Edolas doesn't magically alter how your body works or else the Exceed would function differently in Earthland.

So her standard abilities without magic and exhausted in Edolas and Earthland just happen to ne the same? You are seeing the issue with your argument, yes?

Do explain how she was different? Durable in many situations? You mean like the rest of the cast?

 

[CNBA3]

chakra pills are not different than tools which was permitted in the Chunin Exams, they even stated this when they were introduced, magic is still separate fromt he EL Wizards while in Edolas, instead of being linked to each other. EL Wizards still used Magic items to fight in edolas. you are forgetting Makarav who was drained of his magic and was going to die, even stated that their magic and life force are connected to each other. That is not true for the Exceeds, they can use magic because they were born with it in Edolas, so they can still use it in Earthland, the reason Happy and Carla could not use it the first time is because they had doubts and insecurities preventing them from using it.

Edolas does alter the people from Earthland as they cannot access their magic and magic power, and their physical capabilites are linked to their magic power, that is why they kept losing to standard soldiers. Erza did not even experience pain nor fatigue when undergoing the Second Origin release which put everyone in that state for days.

 

[CNBA3]

Chelia I don't think works very well as a comparison. Not everyone in the world can use magic only 5% I think can, those who can't don't outright die because of this. I guess I may be being a bit technical with this but being unable to use magic doesn't mean you do not have magic in you at all, the distinction is important for this argument.

And remember, the lacrima that contained all the wizards from FT includes the life force of all the civilians in town. and it is 10% that uses magic, it is a basic system to maintain balance in the organized world

 

[Davidsteel1]

If I may make a suggestion b4 leaving:

Leave Edolas as a whole out of this debate. The issue is your all stuck arguing in a circle, Calaca and co argue that Erza saying that she's all out of magic is sufficient evidence but it is undermined by CNBA3 arguing that the X-balls changes the rules. But the issue is we are not given any technical details on how the X-balls work, then the opposition argues against CAB3s statement then relies on Erza again and it all continues in a circle.

We have a number of other cases where the characters are completely out of magic but don't die, and those cases don't have Edolas to clog up the rules just use those. This Edolas matter is clearly going nowhere

 

[AnonymousBlank]

You completely missed my point. I am not saying X balls are not a magic item, they are. I am saying they do not give you magic but allow you to use the magic you already have. The only Earthland members to use magic items in Edolas were Natsu and Wendy (before they got the X balls) and Scarlet (the person who uses magic items anyway).

Guess who else was born with the ability to use magic? Earthland mages. How on earth can you argue one thing but immediately turn around and argue the opposite the moment your logic is used against you.

No, it doesn't. Not in the way you are arguing. Physical abilities are not linked to magic power beyond magic power being able to amp physical abilities, something you must actively do as evidenced by Mavis in the last Arc and Hades in Tenrou. Did it even occur to you that the soldiers are just that strong? Edolas natives spend the entire arc proving just how physically capable they are when Knightwalker physically matches Scarlet, Sugarboy can take hits from Gray, the army can fight FT mages who have access to their magic, Edo FT are able to fight and even save Team Natsu from the soldiers. Why dont we also take a look at other arcs hmm? Mystogan takes Laxus' lightning to the face no diff, same lightning that harms Natsu a lot. Or that Mystogan was stronger than the entire guild bar Makarov, Laxus and Gildarts, 3 people who are known to be monsters?

The only difference that makes between Erza and the rest is that she has higher pain tolerance and stamina than them which, if you even skim the story, would be painfully obvious. If Laxus got his 2nd Origin awakened I have absolutely no doubt he would show no sign of it.

 

[CNBA3]

That is what I have been saying about the x-balls, they do allow you to access your magic and even it generates magic power inside you. And even then, it is all because of the x-balls, not because they can use magic normally in Edolas. What does Earthland Mages being born with magic in a different universe have to do with them being disconnected to their magic in Edolas? And why is Exceed being able to use magic in Earthland such a problem? Yes they do as the MPF does display a number of magic power despite it being a physical attack. No, Soldiers do not have any superhuman abilities without any external magic supporting them, and when the magic was fading from their world, they immediately freaked out and despaired and retreated, Edo only "saved" Team Natsu is because they were overwhelmed with numbers and getting tired as well, that does not make the soldiers scale to them, and it has been confirmed that there are magic items that do grant physical enhancements. But to the point where there is no pain she has shown, she is just that good

 

[Davidsteel1]

A circle.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

X balls do not generate magic. Show me the scan that says this.

So Exceed who have magic containers just like Earthland mages are not beholden to this headcanon rule you pulled from nowhere? Show scans to support any of this. Exceeds using magic in Earthland is an issue because I am not using double standards. Read this all too perfect explanation of what you are arguing

• X = Y
• Y-X (if we bring the X over)
• X-Y (if we bring the Y over)
• X+Y (if we bring the Y over according to you)

Then explain why Knightwalker has superhuman abilities without Ten Commandments, explain why Mystogan has superhuman abilities without his staves, explain why Sugarboy has superhuman abilities without his sword? Thats right, you can't. You say Earthland mages are only human level because they have no magic but ignore the fact that they have run out of magic literal dozens of times on panel and still been superhuman but the one time they don't have access to magic in another dimension, they suddenly get nerfed below their actual physical ability? Thats bullshit and to believe otherwise is stupid.

Of course they would despair, magic is like freaking electricity, oil, water, wind, sunlight amd nukes put together to these guys. Gee, its only the energy your entire civilization is based around. Why be scared when it is what powers the weapons in your hands that greatly improve your combat ability and is responsible for keeping your army alive against 3 people that were taking on all of you. No need to be when they can still use the energy that let you conquer your home dimension. What about the giant landmasses that were floating miles in the sky because of said energy much like the very ground you are on? Meh, just an apocalypse occurring all around you.

Do you read what I type cuz I feel like its wasted effort rn. No shit magic can be a physical amp. I said this myself in the very post you are attempting to refute.

Use paragraphs, plz. And yes she is just that far above them, they are less than fodder to her. Look at every comparison between her and the rest so far.

• Eisenwald? She gets nerfed so hard by the SE car that Gray (who knows just how much of a monster she is) is worried she won't be able to figjt once they catch up to Eisenwald but she just demolishes a guild anyway when the rest of her team doubt them beating said guild.
• Phantom Lord? Just blocks a Jupiter which no one in her guild (once more, the people who would know how strong she is) thinks she can survive. Wakes 10 mins later extremely injured and oneshots a guy who was no diffing Natsu almost immediately and peoceeds to spend another few minutes being the punching bag for a guy who was casually taking on her entire guild without even focusing on them.
• Battle for Fairy Tail? Tells her hundreds of guildmembers to take out half the Thunder Palace while she alone takes the other half. 100+ lacrima which are each able to put one of the stronger members into a coma.
• Tenrou? Just beats the guy who (pre amp) was casually fighting the person closest in strength to Erza while he was amped.
• Feats after 2nd Origin are consistent with this as well with Kyoka making it so a slight breeze is like getting flayed, takes a **** load of hits that already hurt her normally while in this state, pushes through it and pwns amped Etherious Kyoka.

Literally everyone on her level that could logically do the same fecked off elsewhere to train for 3 months but your argument is that her feats are not just feats but make her some uber special being (like Exceeds apparently) that makes her exempt from some interdimensional law of physics that applies to the rest of her species.

 

[CNBA3]

it generated magic the moment when Natsu and Wendy ate them when they had their magic power sucked out of them.

Okay, so look at this

Edolas (possesses limited/losing magic, restricts magic usage for people from Earthland , possesses Exceed that are born with magic) Yet in Earthland (Magic is bountiful, When Exceed born in Edolas entered Earthland, they can use magic fine )

I do not see anything superhuman about it, Mystogen and Knightwalker were fighting bare fists with wizards who use bare fists as well. Sugarboy was oneshoted by Gray so he does not count. this only happens in Edolas because you can't use your magic here.

Then let me ask you this, if Exceed are the only beings in Edolas with magic inside them, then why haven't they ruled over the non magic humans with their own power? the answer is, they can't because they are no stronger than humans, that is a constant, even in both dimensions, they are born weak despite having magic inside them. because believe it or not, magic that amps your physical condition is not consistant as well, especially when you devote your time to only your spells and neglect your physical body.

That only proves my point, they do not have magic so how can they fight superhuman beings powered by magic? How does Knightwalker have superhuman capabilities when she was just going toe to toe with no magic Erza who's strength was tied to her magic as well?

That is not what I am saying at all, she is just that tough a woman, and all the examples you put are her with magic, and this is her without magic in a different dimension, this is not special as NAtsu and Wendy were without magic too and they were no match for Edolas soldiers who are just humans with advanced magic tech, she was going toe to toe with a tough woman too who is with out magic.

 

[The_Calaca]

A circle.

Goddamn you're right.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

You realise that doesn't prove jack shit right? The Royal Army was still absorbing magic from them which means they were not empty, just had some power taken and the X balls let them use their magic that they already have.

You still are missing my point. Not once did I say that Edolas has no effect on them. I said it does not have the compeletely stupid and arbitrary effect you say it does. Remember that? The bullshit you were spouting on how going to Edolas nerfs their physical ability with no magic below their shown physical ability with no magic and some other crap about separating their magic from lifeforce that hinges on the sole fact that its another dimension and thus enforces your absurd headcanon on people.

No shit cats are weaker than people who can fight what we currently list as 7-Cs. And here we go with your double standards argumentation. The thing that is actually inconsistent is your logic because it flips on a dime.

>Says physical amps via magic are responsible for everyone from earthland being Tier 7 and are Tier 9 without it (seems pretty consistent)

>Says physical amps via magic are inconsistent.

What do you mean it proves your point? You dont have a point. Mine is that they (Edolas natives) without magic can match Earthland mages who do have magic. You seem to have no issue with Team Natsu being tier 7 with magic so if the Captains can fight them while not having magic to amp their stats, then their raw stats simply scale. Going by abrogation (because how else can you not be contradicting yourself) tou are saying that Earthland mages with magic are human level.

Erza was always different from the others, as she was a durable woman in many situations

Your exact words I copy and pasted. Do explain what you mean by she was always different and then proceed to mention her durability. Go on, I can't wait to see how you backtrack this point too.

So Scarlet with magic = Knightwalker without magic amps? So you concede that Edolas natives are well able to be be as strong as if not stronger than Team Natsu members with magic? So explain why you have been arguing the human level idiocy posted above?

Jesus christ. So much derail just because you have a stupid disagreement of magic not being life force despite being shown and told it dozens of times throughout the series.

 

[CNBA3]

Okay, first off, no need for such vulgar language, What do you even mean? The fact that they not present when Natsu and Wendy's friends arrive means they are empty and done extracting the magic from them and even stated as such. If you say it doesn't have the effect on them then how are they not using magic in the beginning? Because the fact that they are still alive even without access to their magic power proves this, Edolas operates differently, they are no different than any other resident there with no magic inside them meaning they don't have access to it. Those Efi natives have magic items with them that allowed them to fight as well as they did, take that away and they are nothing to actual powerful wizards. Magic does amp your physical capabilities as the MPF shows with a physical attack displays a number. What are you even talking about, both Erzas were relatively equal to each other with and without magic. And the manga consistently explains how magic power and life force is interchangeable with each other, even humans can die when their magic/life force runs out in a different world such as the CSW, and the same applies for CS in the human world where it is explicitly stated that their magic/life force is what sustains them, and running dry kills them. Your baiting for Erza stats does not prove your point as you use situations that are unrelated to what happened with Edolas. And that makes even more sense with how Franmalth absorbs spirits which have the strength and magic that goes along with it, and considering that Celestial Spirits have been absorbed whole furthers this point.

Here is a question, if you put say Ban (NNT) in Edolas, do you think he would physically be at regular human stat?

 

[AnonymousBlank]

One thats hardly vulgar.

Two can you use bloody paragraphs? Its not that hard. Just press the enter/return key once you have finished a point.

Three you are conflating your made up effect for the X balls with what it actually does.

Them being alive without magic is not something exclusive to Edolas, something you have been told time and again on this thread.

Magic is not a ridiculous amp like you seem to think it is. Laxus got harmed by Hades when he was taking him seriously ergo he would have raised his defense. He then takes an even stronger attack from Hades with no magical energy and already injured with fresh wounds, still concious and able to converse with Team Natsu. Natsu specifically beats down an amped Franmalth with brute force and didn't use magic. And before you bring up that MPF thing again, that just goes to show that the amount of magic contained in a physical attack is completely negligible even among comparable mages.

Ten Commandments doesn't amp Knightwalker's speed (aside from Silfarion), strength or dura so explain how she was keeping up with Erza with magic? Thats right, she is just that fast, strong and durable. Erza keeps up with this and has feats in Earthland where she is low or out of magic and can still fight people on her level. Your entire premise is only supported by its equally stupid conclusion which is (obviously) stupid.

Magic and life force are not interchangeable and never have been as seen in just about every fight where people run out of magic. You have one case with CS which doesn't hold with the slightest bit of scrutiny as them leaving the CSW for a week is so toxic to them that it threatens to kill them. The only example of any spirit going beyond that belongs to Loke, the strongest spirit after CSK. Great, so spirits from another dimension require magic energy to tough it out in a foreign dimension that is toxic to them. You have proved exactly zilch with this point.

Baiting for Erza's stats? Nice duck. Go back and re read the post where you brought up her stats as reasoning that she is apparently different from the rest. Being in Edolas is irrelevant when magical energy doe not drastically alter her stats so everything I brought up stands unlike the strawmans you have.

Good lord. His Curse is to absorb spirits, of course he is going to absorb spirits. What on earth does him absorbing the entirety of a spirit prove? That CS are different from normal beings and thus the same rules and assumptions are not interchangeable/cannot be applied? Good job, you contradicted your own argument ..... again.

I never once claimed magic doesn't affect stats, I said they do not affect them to the degree you claim they do as shown in every bloody fight. Even when specifically directed to amp a stat it still doesn't amp it to whatever you think it does. What on earth are you trying to prove with all this useless shotgunning. That you can spout more BS that is irrelevant to the thread? No need to continue, I concede that you are my superior in this regard.

Are you by any chance illiterate in english? An honest question here because you somehow misunderstand/misconstrue/misinterpret my words everytime despite clarification after different clarification.

 

[CNBA3]

Well you are easily triggered for something that shouldn't cause anger. Which has been disproven time and time again that there are wizards that died after rapid loss of their magic. And it has been proven how the DS were stripped of their magic power which the X-balls give magic power too. Knightwalker explicitly stated that her weapon amps her fighting capabilities, it is practically the same as with Scarlet's Knight. I was not referring to actual stats here but her dura in story, that is not to calc for her stats. That physical attack was just from one weak character who's best ability is Magic drain. And yet Laxus was down at that point. It proves that Souls doe have magic power and magic either as Celestial Spirits or human spirits. They are indistinguishable from each other, especially how they are considered spirits, besides the worlds they live in, that is true, and that proves that magic and their life force is connected as being in their different worlds drains it and kills them. Look again with the examples you brought up which are not related to Erza's Edolas fight.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Triggered by what? Where did this even come from? The supposed "vulgar" language is how I speak. If I was actually angry I would have gotten banned or have over a dozen warnings from the filter. The only thing that is starting to get to me is your inability to use paragraphs.

Speaking of .... seriously, use paragraph's. There is no excuse to not format your posts when you are addressing multiple points.

DS were never stripped of their power, it got sealed away. Note how Wendy and Natsu never notice that they are out of magic unlike Erza. They only say they can't use magic.

Fighting ability =/= stats. If I can move x10 faster than prime Mike Tyson, my stats are trash overall but my fighting ability would be much higher than literally any human in history purely because this one advantage I have makes it so no one can touch me in a fight. If you give a random guy a gun, his fighting ability goes up too, not because his physical stats have been affected but because he has a weapon.

How can you be speaking of her dura but then say you are ignoring her dura feats?

That physical attack was just from one weak character who's best ability is Magic drai

I don't know what you are addressing here.

Laxus was practically blitzing Hades but one attack made it so he couldn't even dodge. Going from being basically down to being down is not a large change in condition especially when the enemy is using an even stronger attack than what made you immobile in thee first place. Magic made no difference to that situation.

You're strawmanning again. Who said souls didn't have magic power? And no, it proves nothing of the sort. It shows Celestial Spirits need magical power to not die, for normal souls its "Omae wa mou shindieru". So to summarise your thought process, living people have life force/magic. When they don't have it, they die. As dead things, they lack life f- ...... wait no, they still have life force.

No shit they aren't the Edolas fight. You know what they have in common though? Erza being low or out of magic and somehow not dead. Magical, ain't it?

I don't even understand why you insist on focusing on Edolas so much when your argument says going to Edolas apparently separates your life force from your magic yet throughout this thread you have argued

• Erza isn't out of magic because
• No magic in Edolas = dead which is apparently a rule that gets enforced on them despite nobody in Edolas has magic
• Magic is a huge amp to stats and Laxus only got downed because of no magic
• But no magic = dead in Earthland because CS

A blind man can see how contradictory most of these arguments are but you support all of them and often in the exact same post.

 

[The_Popular_Loser]

Idk im not too sure but Edolas is not a good example as it is another dimension. Thats just my two cents. I'll probably come back at a later time to look at more arguements.

 

[CNBA3]

^Agreed, since it is another universe and plays by it's own rules

 

[The_Popular_Loser]

Magic is the physical embodiment of the spirit. When the physical spirit of an organism connects with the spiritual flow of nature, the spirit forms Magic as a product of the connectio. Though Magic goes beyond reason, it is still born of reason and it takes an enormous amount of concentration and mental ability to use it. One's magical powers are also tied to one's life force.

This is from Fairy Tail wiki, it comes from the manga however.

Interpret as you will.

 

[CNBA3]

Bump

Also, here is another point of which why that retcon with Erza is not valid, when the Anima reversed, sending all magic back into Earthland, both from their and originated from Edolas, that includes that that exists inside the body, that means Erza still has magic inside her body, so it cannot be a recton.

 

[CNBA3]

Bump

 

[Trinimac15]

Im neutral here but here's my two cent's when Mavis "died" Precht assesses whether she was alive or dead based on how much magic was inside her, though when he says magic i believe he refers to the overall ethernano within her and not just her magic power.


Now that i think about it Zerefs curse should have magic absorbtion too.

 

[CNBA3]

That's a good assessment

 

[Zackra1799]

Now that i think about it Zerefs curse should have magic absorbtion too.

Zeref already has magic absorbtion.

 

[CNBA3]

Now that i think about it Zerefs curse should have magic absorbtion too.

Zeref already has magic absorbtion.

I think he is referring to when his death curse takes life their magic goes with it too

 

[Zackra1799]

I mean it would be redundent since he can already take peoples magic.

 

[CNBA3]

I mean it would be redundent since he can already take peoples magic.

Well with his curse he takes the lives and magic of others, but not as in he can actually use their magic as in just kills them, while with his other he can actually take the magic of others

 

[The_Calaca]

He already has it. Redundant addition is redundant.

 

[CNBA3]

What does that mean?

 

[The_Calaca]

Why would you add Magic Absorption when he already has it? It's redundant.

 

[CNBA3]

It is not technically magic absorption when the magic leaves you when your life leaves you, when it comes to the Death Curse, actually, his curse does seem to cancel multiple forms of revival magic

 

[The_Calaca]

What is it, then?

 

[CNBA3]

It is Death Inducement, and it does seem to be potent enough that using multiple revival spells cannot bring someone back to life from it.

 

[The_Calaca]

Which is the Death Manipulation listed on his profile. AKA nothing New.

 

[CNBA3]

Except though it can negate or resist multiple revival spells, which is something that is not present on his profile

 

[The_Calaca]

I wonder why those revival spells were never mentioned nor used before if they existed.

But it's kinda obvious they didn't work. Mavis wasn't dead. How do you revive an alive?

 

[CNBA3]

Well she was more in a half death state, with no pulse but she is faint with magic, well, those Magic's maybe exclusive to Hades' knowledge, he did keep all this a secret for years.

 

[The_Calaca]

Yet August is way more knowledgeable and none of those spells were mentioned.

Which means nothing. She was still alive, and for some reason Glittering the Lacrima worked even better. There's nothing to add at all. This is the same as using water to wet a river. The river is already wet.

 

[CNBA3]

He may have knowledge, but he may not have had those spells in his arsenal at the time, it was more of a stasis field than a revival spell. She even stated it was just preservation, not revival, she would later state that her life was stolen from Zeref at the time

 

[The_Calaca]

> it was more of a stasis field than a revival spell

So you agree there's nothing to add here.