CRT Foundations for ToAru - Calc Section on the Verse Page and Scaling Chart

[DontTalkDT]

Everyone in the ToAru community wants to do lots of revisions, but updating all the characters correctly is hard. So I thought we should lay some groundwork. Totally not because I have a hard time with the next revision I wanna do or anything, baka.

Calc Section​

These days verse pages usually have a section listing all accepted calcs. It's one of the quality improvements that any verse should do at some point. So let's do that.

Just give me all calcs that are currently accepted and I will put them in a list and on the verse page. Simple as that.

To make a start:

• Kiyama Harumi vaporizes a pillar (8-B)
• Gunha blocks Misaka's attacks (Mach 292.764, by scaling upwards 2.89 times, given that we use an average lightning speed of 440,000 m/s)
• Misaka's Railgun vaporizes wind turbine wing (8-A)
• Misaka destroys an HsF (8-A)
• Tobio's wind sphere (7-C)
• Misaka parts clouds (7-B)
• Index Beam Speed and Kanzaki's Wire Speed (Massively Hypersonic+ for Index's Beam & Sub-Relativistic for Kanzaki's Wires)
• Accelerator borrows Earth's rotational energy (High 6-A)
• Hel freezes ocean (7-A)
• Gabriel vaporizes mountain (6-C)
• Gabirel causes explosion (6-B)
• Mjölnir vaporizes flying island (High 6-C)

So much for a start. I know there are a lot missing. Especially Fanta's calcs that are not yet linked on pages.

Scaling chains​

For the controversial part of this thread, I think it would be useful if we made two charts that document the scaling chains of the verse. One documenting who is stronger/equal/comparable to whom in strength and one who is faster/equal/comparable to whom in speed. Having that would make applying future revisions so much easier, as one could easily see who exactly will be affected.

We have 184 characters, I think. So that will be quite some work. But probably worth it.

So yeah, if you want to help with that, just say who you think scales to whom, say due to which feat, and if it checks out I will note it down and in the end create some chart from it... or something like that. (Gotta see how I manage to Index physicals and powers separately)

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good to me.

 

[Doggo]

Agree

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I agree with adding a calc section. Can't really help with the scaling chart since I don't know the verse but I think it's a good idea.

 

[Churronzon]

I can't really propose a scaling chain without having my questions from previous threads answered or statements rebuked.

1. Aleister tanked an attack from a notoriously furious fullpower Magic God looking to kill. What rating would that be via magic?
2. Niang-Niang currently physically scales above Coronzon for damaging her offscreen, but why can't we presume that Niang-Niang has any form of durability negation through her sparks which are compared to cosmological phase sparks or even magic that has higher AP than Niang-Niang's physicals?
3. Does Coronzon fueling a barrier that requires a max-value Magic God attack to destroy not scale to herself in any way?
4. Does Coronzon's soul not have a quantifiable durability in order to give a rating for Touma's fish eggs which destroyed it? For a suggestion, her soul would survive her incomplete ceremony since she's looking to destroy the Sephirah afterwards.
5. Lilith (who is the only one who can match Coronzon in strength for mutual destruction due to having 'escaped' the surface world) can drive Magic Gods away on her own — compared to Aleister who needs either the A.A.A and Aiwass to have a chance. More Lilith scaling includes her feat of stopping Coronzon's High 1-C Magick: Flaming_Sword and possessing unfathomable power due to passing through Aiwass and lacking original sin. (Coronzon later states Lilith wouldn't be enough.)
6. Is Coronzon being wrung through a noodle maker flowery language?
7. Is Coronzon schizoposting when she postulates the possibility of surviving her complete ceremony?
8. This is already applied in the profiles, but it bears repeating: Aiwass was unquantifiably stronger and Coronzon was unquantifiably weaker in their fight in space.
9. Base Accelerator's drop of water cleaved out a good chunk of Nephthys' body. Does Accelerator's spear scale above a drop of water? Would it kill Coronzon without needing to soulrip her?
10. Do platinum wings provide a boost in terms of AP/Dura?
11. Why does the Invisible Thing have an unknown durability rating for tanking LPSaD Fiamma?
12. The Invisible Thing that Othinus crushed was unquantifiably weaker than the one that appeared in WWIII. How does that affect her scaling to planet level?
13. Why does Othinus' physicals simultaneously scale and not scale to her phase manipulation? For example, she has phase manipulation in her 50/50 key yet she's planetary, while her 100% key has High 1-C durability even though it's widely accepted in the fandom that her unified possibilities didn't increase her strength. Make the physicals in both keys either planet level or High 1-C and remove the likely conditional for her reality warping. (Assuming characters even scale to planet level when this is over with)
14. Shouldn't Accelerator's speed justification include that he kept up with Nephthys? Niang-Niang currently scales to Coronzon in speed.

This series is a meme.

 

[XDragnoir]

I can't really propose a scaling chain without having my questions from previous threads answered or statements rebuked.

1. Aleister tanked an attack from a notoriously furious fullpower Magic God looking to kill. What rating would that be via magic?

H1C Dura with Blasting Rod, just like we do with his AP.

1. Niang-Niang currently physically scales above Coronzon for damaging her offscreen, but why can't we presume that Niang-Niang has any form of durability negation through her sparks or even magic that has higher AP than Niang-Niang's physicals?

Why would we presume she has dura neg? Did she ever do anything with dura neg properties?

As for magic with higher AP, that's a fair point but it really doesn't matter IMO, all MGs should be comparable because they went from the same level down to the same level.

1. Does Coronzon fueling a barrier that requires a max-value Magic God attack not scale to herself in any way?

Queen Britannia was amping that barrier, no? Also, all that would give is H1C with that barrier regardless if QB had anything to do with it or not.

1. Does Coronzon's soul not have a quantifiable durability in order to give a rating for Touma's fish eggs which destroyed it?

Most souls don't have dura as long as they're not physical in some way, the fish eggs could get NPI for this if they get a key but any AP is very unlikely.

1. Lilith (who is the only one who can match Coronzon in strength for mutual destruction) can drive Magic Gods away on her own, compared to Aleister who needs either the A.A.A and Aiwass to have a chance.

Yeah? This seems about right, Lilith was also able to redirect the Flaming Sword and there's all that talk about her soul having endless possibilities, she is clearly a really strong, although unstable, baby soul.

1. Is Coronzon being wrung through a noodle maker flowery language?

Probably not.

1. Is Coronzon schizoposting when she postulates the possibility of surviving her complete ceremony?

Pretty much?

1. This is already applied in the profiles, but it bears repeating: Aiwass was unquantifiably stronger and Coronzon was unquantifiably weaker in their fight in space.

Yeah:

Earth Coronzon > Space Coronzon ~ Space Aiwass > Earth Aiwass

@DontTalkDT this is how you want the scaling chains? Some quotes about it and the ><~= following it?

1. Base Accelerator's drop of water cleaved out a good chunk of Nephthys' body. Does Accelerator's spear scale above a drop of water? Would it kill Coronzon without needing to soulrip her?

Yeah, it's obviously stronger, but why would it kill Coronzon? Strength wise, the spear should indeed have the power to destroy Coronzon's body, but they would still need to deal with her soul afterwards.

1. Do platinum wings provide a boost in terms of AP/Dura?

Read his profile

1. Why does the Invisible Thing have an unknown durability rating for tanking LPSaD Fiamma?

Cause his profile is outdated, it should have 5B dura.

1. The Invisible Thing that Othinus crushed was unquantifiably weaker than the one that appeared in WWIII. How does that affect her scaling to planet level?

I discussed this with Fanta off site, we need the exact value Fiamma scales to (turning the planet into dust) calced, cause going by the recent Vaporization thread, if it doesn't disperse the planet then it doesn't scale to the GBE.

A downgrade could happen yeah, but not before the calc is done and it wouldn't affect everyone due to Aiwass's own statement of destroying the planet and GABRIEL'S FEAT OF EJECTING THE PLANET THAT NO ONE CALCED.

1. Why does Othinus' physicals simultaneously scale and not scale to her phase manipulation? For example, she has phase manipulation in her 50/50 key yet she's planetary, while her 100% key has High 1-C durability even though it's widely accepted in the fandom that her unified possibilities didn't increase her strength. Make the physicals in both keys either planet level or High 1-C and remove the likely conditional for her reality warping. (Assuming characters even scale to planet level when this is over with)

The profile is just outdated/badly worded.

Also I am pretty sure everyone disagreed with me when I said Othinus should be 5B and have H1C AP when throwing Gungnir and Phase hax, idk if anything changed.

1. Shouldn't Accelerator's speed justification include that he kept up with Nephthys? Niang-Niang currently scales to Coronzon in speed.

Yeah, his last key should include that.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I can't really propose a scaling chain without having my questions from previous threads answered or statements rebuked.

1. Aleister tanked an attack from a notoriously furious fullpower Magic God looking to kill. What rating would that be via magic?

It's off-screen. We don't know what the attack was or if Aleister tanked it. It could have been that the attack only hit the third of his body that was burned away. It was also nearly certainly not a full power attack, as a full power attack would inevitably have destroyed the universe. High Priest losing his temper is not equivalent to going all out. Otherwise, he could have just proceeded to hunt and kill Aleister after he fled. To that comes Aleister's immortality...
Basically, it would be no rating, as we don't have the information to say that he actually tanked it at all. We only know he survived an unknown attack.

1. Niang-Niang currently physically scales above Coronzon for damaging her offscreen, but why can't we presume that Niang-Niang has any form of durability negation through her sparks which are compared to cosmological phase sparks or even magic that has higher AP than Niang-Niang's physicals?

It is specified that they clash head on, so I don't think either can be much stronger than the other. And if they didn't scale that way, they would scale indirectly over Aleister.

1. Does Coronzon fueling a barrier that requires a max-value Magic God attack to destroy not scale to herself in any way?

It does indeed not scale in any way. The boat she uses is an ultra powerful magic item that just does that. It's not even a Coronzon exclusive technique in my understanding, but something a proficient human wielder can likewise do.
Always remember that due to the Idol Principle, the power magic in ToAru is limited more by skill, knowledge and prep, than by individual mana pool.

1. Does Coronzon's soul not have a quantifiable durability in order to give a rating for Touma's fish eggs which destroyed it? For a suggestion, her soul would survive her incomplete ceremony since she's looking to destroy the Sephirah afterwards

As Dragnoir said, souls typically have no real durability. You would need something that simultanously has physical power and have that power also apply to souls to have some sort of scaling.

1. Lilith (who is the only one who can match Coronzon in strength for mutual destruction due to having 'escaped' the surface world) can drive Magic Gods away on her own — compared to Aleister who needs either the A.A.A and Aiwass to have a chance. More Lilith scaling includes her feat of stopping Coronzon's High 1-C Magick: Flaming_Sword and possessing unfathomable power due to passing through Aiwass and lacking original sin. (Coronzon later states Lilith wouldn't be enough.)

Yeah, we really need to create a Lilith profile sometime. She is a god tier of the verse. Although that weakness with her miracles not working on Coronzon while she's physical is strange. No idea how that would verse equalize.

1. Is Coronzon being wrung through a noodle maker flowery language?

I think that entire section describing her destruction was a fake out? Like, it describes how Coronzon is wiped from the face of the Earth (literally says she did), just for Coronzon to then say "just kidding" and stab Aleister with her body still intact. In the following, it says that her physical body actually deflected the attack with ease.
Basically, I think none of the destruction actually happened at all.

1. Is Coronzon schizoposting when she postulates the possibility of surviving her complete ceremony?

It's just a possibility. And I have my doubts that it's about durability. I would guess that it's more about her spiritual self surviving. IIRC Coronzon is known to life in a void anyway, so if the ceremony doesn't kill her, she wouldn't die just because nothing else is left.

1. This is already applied in the profiles, but it bears repeating: Aiwass was unquantifiably stronger and Coronzon was unquantifiably weaker in their fight in space.

That's alright for a scaling chain. Of course, they are within scaling of each other.

1. Base Accelerator's drop of water cleaved out a good chunk of Nephthys' body. Does Accelerator's spear scale above a drop of water? Would it kill Coronzon without needing to soulrip her?

Probably is stronger, yeah. About killing Coronzon... I guess there is a real possibility it would stop her physical body from regenerating, but Coronzon can exist just as a soul, so it wouldn't truly kill her.

1. Do platinum wings provide a boost in terms of AP/Dura?

I mean, Accel has much greater feats with them, so probably yes.

1. Why does the Invisible Thing have an unknown durability rating for tanking LPSaD Fiamma?

As far as a likely intangible force would have durability, I guess it might as well scale.

1. The Invisible Thing that Othinus crushed was unquantifiably weaker than the one that appeared in WWIII. How does that affect her scaling to planet level?

I don't see where it says it was weaker?

1. Why does Othinus' physicals simultaneously scale and not scale to her phase manipulation? For example, she has phase manipulation in her 50/50 key yet she's planetary, while her 100% key has High 1-C durability even though it's widely accepted in the fandom that her unified possibilities didn't increase her strength. Make the physicals in both keys either planet level or High 1-C and remove the likely conditional for her reality warping. (Assuming characters even scale to planet level when this is over with)

Incomplete Othinus is clearly not that durable, seeing as her own arrows can harm her.

That said, I personally see no reason complete Othinus wouldn't be physically more durable. In her nerfed states she can't use her god powers to create powerful magical defenses (without fearing constantrandom knockback) but in her full power state she can. It would make a lot of sense for her to have it.

1. Shouldn't Accelerator's speed justification include that he kept up with Nephthys? Niang-Niang currently scales to Coronzon in speed.

Yeah, that could be added.

@DontTalkDT this is how you want the scaling chains? Some quotes about it and the ><~= following it?

Yeah, something like that would be great. Like, make clear if it's scaling above physicals or an ability. As well as whether it is incomparably stronger or stronger, but not so much that they wouldn't scale.

I discussed this with Fanta off site, we need the exact value Fiamma scales to (turning the planet into dust) calced, cause going by the recent Vaporization thread, if it doesn't disperse the planet then it doesn't scale to the GBE.

Calced this before somewhere without posting it and the dusting adds little to the GBE.
I don't think we will stop assuming GBE for regular planet destruction. The thread you reference is a thing because there's a Bleach character that destroys a world by unknown means over a span of several hours, which basically means that it's extremely unlikely to be via exploding the planet, as explosions tend to be rapid. Hence the difference in treatment.

 

[XDragnoir]

We don't know what the attack was or if Aleister tanked it. It could have been that the attack only hit the third of his body that was burned away. It was also nearly certainly not a full power attack, as a full power attack would inevitably have destroyed the universe.

His body wasn't burned away (as in, with some parts outright missing), it was burned badly, going by Noukan's words in the scan.

Also, that last part is bs, they were not fighting inside the universe, they were fighting in the Hidden Phase, otherwise just standing there would have destroyed the universe.

But all this doesn't matter, because Blasting Rod can strengthen defensive spells just like it can do with offensive spells.

 

[Churronzon]

Assume I don't care about the result of things I don't respond to. I'll go with any scaling chain so long as reasons are actually given for them. That's really my only gripe with the profiles.

It's just a possibility. And I have my doubts that it's about durability. I would guess that it's more about her spiritual self surviving. IIRC Coronzon is known to life in a void anyway, so if the ceremony doesn't kill her, she wouldn't die just because nothing else is left.

Then we might need to remove its existence erasure, unless she has a resistance to EE. If it's not EE, then how would she survive its NPI+AP if her soul has no durability? If it's a case of the Ceremony not having NPI,(which we would also need to remove if true) does that mean Atziluth is reliant on the very bottom of the Sephiroth? Are we equating phases to the Four Worlds?

Speaking of the Kabbalah, does anyone know which thread(s) this comes from? I don't plan on doing anything with 1-A(since Ain has like two scans tops) but it seemed like an odd statement that the entire series and not just Magic Gods are incapable of reaching it some day. (Qliphah even foreshadows it)

Probably is stronger, yeah. About killing Coronzon... I guess there is a real possibility it would stop her physical body from regenerating, but Coronzon can exist just as a soul, so it wouldn't truly kill her.

So the energy spear (which has the most evidence of being AIM) doesn't have NPI to destroy her soul?

Incomplete Othinus is clearly not that durable, seeing as her own arrows can harm her.

Agreed. I was more in favor of having both keys at planet level physically. Also probably need to give Dying Othinus key unknown(or some other rating if we know it) AP physically, planet level via crossbow.

That said, I personally see no reason complete Othinus wouldn't be physically more durable. In her nerfed states she can't use her god powers to create powerful magical defenses (without fearing constantrandom knockback) but in her full power state she can. It would make a lot of sense for her to have it.

To me, it sounds like durability gained through magic, not at base. A very similar situation to Aleister's even.

---

Coronzon tanked a kick from Accel, but I don't know if he was using his full power.
In another attack, it's stated that Accelerator poured all of his strength into it, but she avoided a kick to the face by using her hair and a spell 'negating the vectors' which also connected/corresponded the macro universe with a micro body. Would it have obliterated her similar to what he did to Nephthys if he actually landed a clean hit?

---

What are your thoughts on crossbow arrows blitzing Accel's vector field?

---

What tier is the magic of Magic Gods in their High 1-C keys? Does it outscale RZIONR?

 

[XDragnoir]

Then we might need to remove its existence erasure, unless she has a resistance to EE. If it's not EE, then how would she survive its NPI+AP if her soul has no durability? If it's a case of the Ceremony not having NPI,(which we would also need to remove if true) does that mean Atziluth is reliant on the very bottom of the Sephiroth? Are we equating phases to the Four Worlds?

What? She wouldn't survive, stop overthinking it, the entire quote is exactly about "she is being that extreme cause she has to kill herself alongside everything else, otherwise it's a failure". Coronzon CAN'T survive the spell.

Also, wtf? EE doesn't need to erase souls to be EE, erasing the body alone is already EE, you made some huge jumps in logic here, Zon.

Speaking of the Kabbalah, does anyone know which thread(s) this comes from? I don't plan on doing anything with 1-A(since Ain has like two scans tops) but it seemed like an odd statement that the entire series and not just Magic Gods are incapable of reaching it some day. (Qliphah even foreshadows it)

Meh, it's a really old and pretty outdated thing, doesn't really changed anything so far and we can just remove it if we ever get something that could give 1A.

So the energy spear (which has the most evidence of being AIM) doesn't have NPI to destroy her soul?

Why would it have NPI to destroy her soul?

Agreed. I was more in favor of having both keys at planet level physically. Also probably need to give Dying Othinus key unknown(or some other rating if we know it) AP physically, planet level via crossbow.

Makes sense, Ig.

To me, it sounds like durability gained through magic, not at base. A very similar situation to Aleister's even.

Yeah but we don't really make a distinction most of the time, we only do it when it's an specific case of (has X dura using Y magic). Just look at Anna Sprengel's stats.

Coronzon tanked a kick from Accel, but I don't know if he was using his full power.
In another attack, it's stated that Accelerator poured all of his strength into it, but she avoided a kick to the face by using her hair and a spell 'negating the vectors' which also connected/corresponded the macro universe with a micro body. Would it have obliterated her similar to what he did to Nephthys if he actually landed a clean hit?

Yeah, more than likely given Nephtys should scale above Coronzon in dura.

What are your thoughts on crossbow arrows blitzing Accel's vector field?

Why does it matter? They should give they are faster and his speed feat saving Last Order was never added, but that doesn't really change much here.

What tier is the magic of Magic Gods in their High 1-C keys? Does it outscale RZIONR?

Their magic is H1C, so yes. Why tho? This is an oddly specific question.

 

[Churronzon]

Also, wtf? EE doesn't need to erase souls to be EE, erasing the body alone is already EE, you made some huge jumps in logic here, Zon.

I wasn't aware of that my b.

Why does it matter? They should give they are faster and his speed feat saving Last Order was never added, but that doesn't really change much here.

Yeah this one can be ignored. It's not important or relevant upon reflection.

Their magic is H1C, so yes. Why tho? This is an oddly specific question.

Yo don't find it pertinent to scale the magic of Magic Gods?

 

[XDragnoir]

I wasn't aware of that my b.

No problems.

Yo don't find it pertinent to scale the magic of Magic Gods?

The MGs' magic yes, but I was asking why does RZIONR matter here?

 

[DontTalkDT]

His body wasn't burned away (as in, with some parts outright missing), it was burned badly, going by Noukan's words in the scan.

Also, that last part is bs, they were not fighting inside the universe, they were fighting in the Hidden Phase, otherwise just standing there would have destroyed the universe.

But all this doesn't matter, because Blasting Rod can strengthen defensive spells just like it can do with offensive spells.

I would continue arguing, but as long as we agree that he doesn't scale in durability or power in any way except Blasting Rod, which scales anyway, I'm fine.

So the energy spear (which has the most evidence of being AIM) doesn't have NPI to destroy her soul?

I see no evidence for it having that.

(Also have my doubts its just regular AIM. Remember, AIM is just regular energy. Like, Misaka's AIM is just regular electromagnetism. A Pyrokinetics AIM would just be heat. Etc.)

Agreed. I was more in favor of having both keys at planet level physically. Also probably need to give Dying Othinus key unknown(or some other rating if we know it) AP physically, planet level via crossbow.

Physical strength is probably fine.

For the durability.. not sure. IIRC it was decided that MGs can't just oneshot one another in some thread? Admittedly don't remember the details anymore.

To me, it sounds like durability gained through magic, not at base. A very similar situation to Aleister's even.

What do you mean durability gained through magic? Like, most durability of magicians in Index is gained that through magic.

Coronzon tanked a kick from Accel, but I don't know if he was using his full power.
In another attack, it's stated that Accelerator poured all of his strength into it, but she avoided a kick to the face by using her hair and a spell 'negating the vectors' which also connected/corresponded the macro universe with a micro body. Would it have obliterated her similar to what he did to Nephthys if he actually landed a clean hit?

Questionable, especially as this was base.
However, that is good enough evidence to put Coronzon's durability as "comparable" to base Accel's AP.

What are your thoughts on crossbow arrows blitzing Accel's vector field?

We don't know how fast the arrows are so... no opinion.

What tier is the magic of Magic Gods in their High 1-C keys? Does it outscale RZIONR?

What even is RZIONR?

 

[Churronzon]

What even is RZIONR?

It's the pure element of fire that takes superiority over surface world phenomenon by using the laws of Beriah rather than Asiyah and erased Niang-Niang's magic.
Is Niang-Niang more durable than her own magic?
It's probably one of the perks of Abyss knowledge that prevents access to the top three Sephirah.
Not all Calls use pure elements as LILACZA is a mix of two elements and as such described as an act of the surface world that can be influenced by other acts of the surface world.

Dragnoir and I had a whole debate about it and completely disagreed on its efficacy on the discussion thread.

 

[XDragnoir]

I would continue arguing, but as long as we agree that he doesn't scale in durability or power in any way except Blasting Rod, which scales anyway, I'm fine.

Yeah, the point is moreso that his profile only lists it as AP, when it should affect other stats as well (dura, range and probably striking).

(Also have my doubts its just regular AIM. Remember, AIM is just regular energy. Like, Misaka's AIM is just regular electromagnetism. A Pyrokinetics AIM would just be heat. Etc.)

Yeah, the spear seems to either be made of Leylines or yet another power that covers the planet, as its only description was "an invisible power that covered every part of the world"

For the durability.. not sure. IIRC it was decided that MGs can't just oneshot one another in some thread? Admittedly don't remember the details anymore.

It was stated that MGs can't defeat each other, yeah.

What do you mean durability gained through magic? Like, most durability of magicians in Index is gained that through magic.

Yeah, Zon is more or less saying "shouldn't their dura be X without magic and Y with magic?" I don't think we need to, but we technically do that with Anna already.

Questionable, especially as this was base.

Base Accel is the one that tore part of Neph's torso, tho.

We don't know how fast the arrows are so... no opinion.

What? We just added MFTL speed to them.

Dragnoir and I had a whole debate about it and completely disagreed on its efficacy on the discussion thread.

It was less about efficacy and more about tiering, we have no idea how strong "Beriah magic" is when comparing to MGs H1C magic.

Which reminds me how much I hate Kamachi for not explaining how things work in practice.

 

[XDragnoir]

I discussed with Fanta a lot offsite but there are some... small problems with our 5Bs.

Fiamma's planet dust statement is only 5C and that's the main feat we use for scaling, so we will have to start using the other 5B statements (Aiwass' world destruction, Gabriel's planet ejection + True Archangels and... maybe Othinus for support?)

Note: the planet dust and the ejection feats I linked were the only ones Fanta found, I couldn't find anything else either, just to note.

But overall, these feats should get properly indexed in the profiles and all that stuff, as for the scaling:

True Archangels < LPSaD < IT's durability < Aiwass' AP < Space Aiwass ~ Weakened Coronzon < Coronzon ~ Accel ~ Nerfed MGs < Post-Clonoth Accel

Coronzon ~ SoG Aleister = INRI Mathers

IT's durability < Othinus = Ollerus

That's mainly for NT stuff, I guess we all know that GT stuff is so far a mess (we should tackle it here as well, but I'd say we first have to get everything else clear).

 

[DontTalkDT]

Welp, other threads once again distracted me for waaay to long. Sorry about that.

---

It's the pure element of fire that takes superiority over surface world phenomenon by using the laws of Beriah rather than Asiyah and erased Niang-Niang's magic.
Is Niang-Niang more durable than her own magic?
It's probably one of the perks of Abyss knowledge that prevents access to the top three Sephirah.
Not all Calls use pure elements as LILACZA is a mix of two elements and as such described as an act of the surface world that can be influenced by other acts of the surface world.

Dragnoir and I had a whole debate about it and completely disagreed on its efficacy on the discussion thread.

Ah, the pure elements, I see. I don't think those are Tier 1 attacks, seeing the way nerfed Niang-Niang clashed with it, even if she seemed somewhat at a disadvantage.

Given, they seem to be similar to Magick in that they might have a priority to attacks of lesser Aeon.

Yeah, the point is moreso that his profile only lists it as AP, when it should affect other stats as well (dura, range and probably striking).

Not sure. Like, if he manifests a shield then yes. Not sure if it would affect his punch or something.
And yeah, would of course affect range.

Yeah, the spear seems to either be made of Leylines or yet another power that covers the planet, as its only description was "an invisible power that covered every part of the world"

Yeah... I think probably will be explained. I don't think Kamachi will never bring up Platinum Wings stuff again. It seems vague on purpose at the moment.

Yeah, Zon is more or less saying "shouldn't their dura be X without magic and Y with magic?" I don't think we need to, but we technically do that with Anna already.

What we do with Anna is different. The reason hers is split up like that is because the idea of "if you have physical attack of strength x you need durability y to not destroy yourself" is based on Newton's third law. If you throw a punch with magic, like Anna does, it might be that Newton's third law might not apply to the punch and hence the strength of the physical punch doesn't scale to the durability.

If she tanked a planet level attack in a regular way I would absolutely just list at as we do with other magicians.

But yeah, personally I don't think we need a separate "without magic" durability for everyone. Like, IB would probably reduce the durability of a good chunk of fantasy creatures on this wiki, because "lol, your magical biology doesn't work anymore". (well, at least if they are sufficiently unnatural)
In practice we probably list durability gained by supernatural means for countless fantasy creatures without adding a word.

Base Accel is the one that tore part of Neph's torso, tho.

All in that range of power can probably harm each other, yeah. Probably not insta kill each other, though.

What? We just added MFTL speed to them.

Let me correct myself: We don't know exactly how fast they are. Not enough that I could definitely say whether they are faster than Accels calcs or not.

I discussed with Fanta a lot offsite but there are some... small problems with our 5Bs.

Fiamma's planet dust statement is only 5C and that's the main feat we use for scaling, so we will have to start using the other 5B statements (Aiwass' world destruction, Gabriel's planet ejection + True Archangels and... maybe Othinus for support?)

Note: the planet dust and the ejection feats I linked were the only ones Fanta found, I couldn't find anything else either, just to note.

Well, Gabriel's planet ejection scales to nobody not even himself.
But I generally think using GBE for "blowing away a planet" and reducing it to dust via an explosion like Fiamma does is perfectly reasonable. So I think the tier he has is fine as it is.

But overall, these feats should get properly indexed in the profiles and all that stuff, as for the scaling:

True Archangels < LPSaD < IT's durability < Aiwass' AP < Space Aiwass ~ Weakened Coronzon < Coronzon ~ Accel ~ Nerfed MGs < Post-Clonoth Accel

Coronzon ~ SoG Aleister = INRI Mathers

IT's durability < Othinus = Ollerus

Yeah, all of that makes sense.

---

would you take the usual struggle Kuroko and Misaka have as evidence for them physically scaling? Or would that be a stretch, cause those are comedy scenes?

 

[Churronzon]

Welp, other threads once again distracted me for waaay to long. Sorry about that.

I don't mind at all

---

Then we might need to remove its existence erasure, unless she has a resistance to EE. If it's not EE, then how would she survive its NPI+AP if her soul has no durability? If it's a case of the Ceremony not having NPI,(which we would also need to remove if true) does that mean Atziluth is reliant on the very bottom of the Sephiroth? Are we equating phases to the Four Worlds?

We prob should remove the EE and NPI from the ceremony and assume Atzilut is reliant on Asiyah-Gashmi for w/e reason tbh. We have evidence for much of the destruction being a chain reaction and not enough to conclude she is EE'ing metaphysical realms imo.

---

How does grenade > Accelerator fit into w/e the stats are going to be

 

[DontTalkDT]

We prob should remove the EE and NPI from the ceremony and assume Atzilut is reliant on Asiyah-Gashmi for w/e reason tbh. We have evidence for much of the destruction being a chain reaction and not enough to conclude she is EE'ing metaphysical realms imo.

Since she destroys the planes of reality as such I can not imagine that it would leave elemental particles and regular matter intact. Fairly sure it erases things on some level, just as a consequence of destroying a plane of existence (i.e. the bottom-most world and then the phases)
And the NPI should be fine for the reason it's listed? Like, the Sephiroth is intangible. It's just that not all intangibilities are equal.

How does grenade > Accelerator fit into w/e the stats are going to be

As I see it currently, the physical stats of all the low tiers that are part of the low tier physical scaling chain (which includes Accel due to tanking Touma's punches) should be either Street level+ or outright wall level (depending on how we downscale and which further feats I find.)
Grenades are generally somewhere in 9-B and fragments have piercing damage, so that would fit in well.

 

[XDragnoir]

Not sure. Like, if he manifests a shield then yes. Not sure if it would affect his punch or something.
And yeah, would of course affect range.

Blood Sign for example is a spell (so it's targetable by Blasting Rod) and it amps his dura (and striking too), same goes for Son of God, not like we didn't see that in practice with Aleister fighting High Priest and surviving attacks from him, so it has to be able to amp his Dura.

What we do with Anna is different. The reason hers is split up like that is because the idea of "if you have physical attack of strength x you need durability y to not destroy yourself" is based on Newton's third law. If you throw a punch with magic, like Anna does, it might be that Newton's third law might not apply to the punch and hence the strength of the physical punch doesn't scale to the durability.

What? What are you even talking about? When was Anna ever stated to not follow Newton's Laws? We don't assume characters don't follow physics if that's not stated.

We list her dura like that because she was punched by Touma, so she is specifically only 5B with magic amps, what you just said makes no sense at all.

All in that range of power can probably harm each other, yeah. Probably not insta kill each other, though.

He did more than harm her with that attack tho, he straight up made a hole through her torso, without regen she'd be dead.

Let me correct myself: We don't know exactly how fast they are. Not enough that I could definitely say whether they are faster than Accels calcs or not.

We rate them as MFTL+, Accel's best feat (which wasn't added yet, but still) is MFTL, everything else is like, 3x FTL at best.

Well, Gabriel's planet ejection scales to nobody not even himself.
But I generally think using GBE for "blowing away a planet" and reducing it to dust via an explosion like Fiamma does is perfectly reasonable. So I think the tier he has is fine as it is.

As I have said before, that literally scales to True Gabriel, that was the entire point of that scene.

Do you have the quote for "blowing away a planet"? Do we already have a calc for it?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Blood Sign for example is a spell (so it's targetable by Blasting Rod) and it amps his dura (and striking too), same goes for Son of God, not like we didn't see that in practice with Aleister fighting High Priest and surviving attacks from him, so it has to be able to amp his Dura.

I mean, again, we have no idea how he survived the attack from High Priest. Could have manifested a shield or whatever.
With Blood Sign you mean the Blood Sacrifice spell? If so, that's technically supposed to be a spell that kinda optimizes his existence. It's in practice a stat amp, but since it works in a roundabout way I'm not sure if Blasting Rod affects it like that. Especially since the effect is supposed to be permanent, I think.
Is the Son of God spell indicated to physically boost him?

What? What are you even talking about? When was Anna ever stated to not follow Newton's Laws? We don't assume characters don't follow physics if that's not stated.

We list her dura like that because she was punched by Touma, so she is specifically only 5B with magic amps, what you just said makes no sense at all.

No, I gave the stat the description it has for specifically that reason.

We specifically do not assume Newton's laws for anything supernatural, actually. That's why, say, telekinesis is not assumed to have a knockback that scales the users durability to their TK strength. Magic in fiction regularly produces a one-directional force, without a counter-force, obviously breaking physics in that respect. Unless the magic is just stat amping the punch, we wouldn't really assume that it definitely scales. (I would look for the thread on that, but that almost certainly was like 6 years ago...)
I mean, the page on that specifically talks about physical attacks for this reason.

He did more than harm her with that attack tho, he straight up made a hole through her torso, without regen she'd be dead.

I don't think that was base Accel looking at it? But yeah, he can just shoot with things through her body.

We rate them as MFTL+, Accel's best feat (which wasn't added yet, but still) is MFTL, everything else is like, 3x FTL at best.

I guess then they could shoot through it, assuming Accel doesn't do advance calculations.

As I have said before, that literally scales to True Gabriel, that was the entire point of that scene.

No, it wasn't. Gabriel was getting power from an external source to the point that his vessel couldn't hold it.
That true Gabriel would have that power without first charging up with water is speculation.

Do you have the quote for "blowing away a planet"? Do we already have a calc for it?

In fact, the great swirl of light Fiamma had fired had split in two right in front of the boy and scattered to either side of him. Yet that attack had held such power that it could blow away a planet or recreate any of the legends in Christianity.

From OT 22 of course.

I think turning a planet to dust and blowing it away is sufficient evidence to assume GBE is overcome. GBE is our standard for proper planet destruction, as when its not overcome the planet is technically still pretty much intact. We don't typically require very explicit evidence for it, as long as it's clear that the planet is properly destroyed.

 

[XDragnoir]

I mean, again, we have no idea how he survived the attack from High Priest. Could have manifested a shield or whatever.

And what does that change? He would be indexed as "H1C with Blasting Rod" in Dura just like he is in AP, it's not like we've ever seen any of his spells have H1C AP either, so idk why you're being nitpicky about this.

With Blood Sign you mean the Blood Sacrifice spell? If so, that's technically supposed to be a spell that kinda optimizes his existence. It's in practice a stat amp, but since it works in a roundabout way I'm not sure if Blasting Rod affects it like that.

I am pretty sure Aleister named the spell as Blood Sign in NT20.

And what would "existence" here entail that can't be just a flowery way of saying physical body? Indeed, where is it stated that it optimizes his "existence"? The translation I read only said "optimizes this me".

Especially since the effect is supposed to be permanent, I think.

Unlikely, Aleister said he had used that blood sacrifice against the Golden Dawn back in the day and yet he is fodder physically nowadays.

Is the Son of God spell indicated to physically boost him?

Bro, you have to reread it again, but sure:

The two geniuses had both used spells based on the Son of God to build their bodies up to
a higher level. So what had divided the two of them? Why did Aleister have these wounds
while Mathers did not?

We specifically do not assume Newton's laws for anything supernatural, actually. That's why, say, telekinesis is not assumed to have a knockback that scales the users durability to their TK strength. Magic in fiction regularly produces a one-directional force, without a counter-force, obviously breaking physics in that respect. Unless the magic is just stat amping the punch, we wouldn't really assume that it definitely scales. (I would look for the thread on that, but that almost certainly was like 6 years ago...)
I mean, the page on that specifically talks about physical attacks for this reason.

Yes, but Anna literally used her bare hands to pierce Aiwass, so again, what are you talking about? She didn't use a projectile or other non-physical means, it was literally just magic stat amping the punch, like the part I bolded here says.

I don't think that was base Accel looking at it? But yeah, he can just shoot with things through her body.

? Accel made a hole in her torso with his water attack, no idea what that would be other than his base form

No, it wasn't. Gabriel was getting power from an external source to the point that his vessel couldn't hold it.
That true Gabriel would have that power without first charging up with water is speculation.

Quoting from OT22: "her goal was to return her existence to its rightful position".

Misha/Gabriel wasn't randomly absorbing more power for no reason like you're implying, she was doing it to attain back her "rightful position" or, in other words, a Perfect Archangel, beings who have all that power she was absorbing but don't explode.

But know what, we should have a thread to discuss this, and other parts of the 5B scaling, specifically, we need a proper CRT since this thread has pretty much become a scaling discussion rather than a CRT of any kind, could you create it and list all the planet level stuff? (That would be Gabriel's, Fiamma's and Aiwass' statements)

 

[Churronzon]

I am pretty sure Aleister named the spell as Blood Sign in NT20.

He did

“I shall teach you the true nature of the blood sacrifice used to kill every last member of
the Golden cabal. Or if you like, you could call it my Blood Sign.”

I don't think that was base Accel looking at it? But yeah, he can just shoot with things through her body.

Accelerator was in base. Clonoth was installed moments after this attack. The point was to showcase Accelerator not being able to leave permanent damage on Nephthys prior to the upgrade, not that he couldn't eviscerate her body like he did.

 

[Churronzon]

I don't see where it says it was weaker?

The part where she states it produced decent results in WWIII (implying this instance isn't a decent result) is why Touma's Invisible Thing is currently stated as being weaker or stronger at times in his profile.

“...Is that all?”

Othinus’s bloody hand grabbed something.

The one-eyed witch tilted her head to the side in confusion.

“It seems you produced decent results during the final stages of World War III, but is this
all I find when I open the lid?”

But Othinus was still confident in crushing the IT that scared Fiamma so this might be a moot point

Incomplete Othinus is clearly not that durable, seeing as her own arrows can harm her.

That said, I personally see no reason complete Othinus wouldn't be physically more durable. In her nerfed states she can't use her god powers to create powerful magical defenses (without fearing constantrandom knockback) but in her full power state she can. It would make a lot of sense for her to have it.

I just remembered the other reason why I brought up the question of Othinus physically scaling to her phase manipulation. It's because Nephthys' third key currently doesn't and I wanted an explanation for why it's inconsistent.

---

Edit: Oh also, we should give a justification for the likely far higher ratings if we want to keep them.

 

[Churronzon]

Why would we presume she has dura neg? Did she ever do anything with dura neg properties?

While I was making a sandbox to give profiles references, I found another quote that directly compares Niang-Niang's sparks to the sparks and spray that Aleister despises.

“Magic God Niang-Niang...”

“I’m here to play, Aleister.”

That monster grinned while making a weapon out of the sparks and spray that the silver
girl loathed more than anything else.

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Chapter 4 Part 9

"Why would a Magic God have dura neg" is not a question I expected to hear. I really don't think it's a wild possibility to suggest.

---

Another topic: Why does Aiwass scale to Aleister's ceremony of destroying all phases? That would be like scaling Coronzon to her ceremony that would destroy all of creation and which she stated she could survive.

“Aleister apparently wanted to save humanity by destroying every other phase and leaving
just this one behind, but I am the opposite. By removing the ‘bottom’ layer at the center,
the phases for all mythologies and religions will be destroyed. That is the Ceremony of Mo
Athair. Nothing at all will remain afterwards.”

I also have issue with the statement that Magic Gods can't enter the Pure World in Aiwass's profile since it's never stated. We could extrapolate it as being true, but I would then suggest for it to be reworded to say that they "shouldn't be able to" rather than them concretely not being able to. Something along those lines anyways.

Repeating what I said in the discussion thread: I believe it comes from the following quote as I and presumably others used to erroneously believe that it was referring to the layer of scientific laws and not a Buddhistic realm.

“You don’t know? The world is divided into different categories: human, animal, deva,
preta. But there is no path allowed for those like us who are known as Magic Gods. Yet we
did not rise to this position through the normal means, so the gates of the Pure Land or
of heaven will not open for us.”

(Pure World and Pure Land are very different)

Incredible how the most defining aspect of Aiwass is its existence in the aforementioned Pure World, yet it's not listed anywhere outside of the summary.

 

[XDragnoir]

While I was making a sandbox to give profiles references, I found another quote that directly compares Niang-Niang's sparks to the sparks and spray that Aleister despises.

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Chapter 4 Part 9

"Why would a Magic God have dura neg" is not a question I expected to hear. I really don't think it's a wild possibility to suggest.

First off, that wasn't what I was asking.

2nd, did the sparks and sprays ever dura neg anyone? Only thing I recall about them is that they hit you from unseen angles, nothing about dura neg.

3rd, I will try to explain again, we don't, in any way, shape or form, presume things, if there's no proof she can ignore durability, we don't presume she can.

I never said "why would a MG have dura neg?" or "a MG can't have dura neg" or anything close to that, we didn't see, as far as I can remember, Niang Niang (or even most of the other MGs, Nephtys was using water blades, after all) use dura neg, so her off screen fight will not be randomly assumed to have dura neg as a factor, that would be stupid to say the least.

---

Another topic: Why does Aiwass scale to Aleister's ceremony of destroying all phases? That would be like scaling Coronzon to her ceremony that would destroy all of creation and which she stated she could survive.

Aiwass' 2nd key is mostly an hypothetical, if that wasn't clear, we didn't see it in practice and even if his Real Form inside of the Pure World would be H1C too, that's different from the version we list in his profile.

But to answer your question, at least from what I understand, is that Aleister's ceremony was meant to strengthen Aiwass and then he would carry out the destruction of the phases.

So it's a different type of ceremony from Coronzon's, no reason to compare them.

Also, no she didn't state she could survive, you're misinterpreting that quote again, she said she was being so extreme because if she survived the destruction her plan would fail.

I also have issue with the statement that Magic Gods can't enter the Pure World in Aiwass's profile since it's never stated. We could extrapolate it as being true, but I would then suggest for it to be reworded to say that they "shouldn't be able to" rather than them concretely not being able to. Something along those lines anyways.

Repeating what I said in the discussion thread: I believe it comes from the following quote as I and presumably others used to erroneously believe that it was referring to the layer of scientific laws and not a Buddhistic realm.

(Pure World and Pure Land are very different)

Yeah, agreed, if it comes from that quote then it is wrong.

Incredible how the most defining aspect of Aiwass is its existence in the aforementioned Pure World, yet it's not listed anywhere outside of the summary.

What do you mean?

 

[Churronzon]

2nd, did the sparks and sprays ever dura neg anyone? Only thing I recall about them is that they hit you from unseen angles, nothing about dura neg.

3rd, I will try to explain again, we don't, in any way, shape or form, presume things, if there's no proof she can ignore durability, we don't presume she can.

If you're asking if there's onscreen feats of Niang-Niang's sparks negating durability, no there isn't any. I was proposing her ability to emulate the effects of sparks and spray which negate durability, caused Touma to release fish eggs which destroyed Coronzon's soul and made it so Aleister would possess Coronzon's body.

If that's not enough or if her magic is too different from the cosmological phase sparks, then it's fine for this argument to be dropped. I thought she might be comparable to other MGs that are confirmed to have dura neg such as Chimera's mind+soul destruction, Nuada's life force absorption, Nephthys' ash transmutation, [Proserpina's death curse], and High Priest's vague soul ranking manipulation. Could be faulty logic, I admit.

But to answer your question, at least from what I understand, is that Aleister's ceremony was meant to strengthen Aiwass and then he would carry out the destruction of the phases.

Scans would be great. You could be right, but I'd like to be sure.

Also, no she didn't state she could survive, you're misinterpreting that quote again, she said she was being so extreme because if she survived the destruction her plan would fail.

It's whatever; we can drop this since I don't agree with it myself anyways.

What do you mean?

It's not a scaling question; we can't go into it in this thread.
It was an offhand comment asking what in the P&A or techniques section mentions/describes its existence in the Pure World.

 

[XDragnoir]

Scans would be great. You could be right, but I'd like to be sure.

Aleister says Touma and Accel have to contact Aiwass' Core at the end of NT18, that's probably the most direct confirmation thag Aiwass himself would play a role in the ceremony (unlike Coronzon's which is just an explosion that doesn't really happen through someone), it's also worth adding that time Aiwass was listed as something Aleister needed to fight Magic Gods.

It's not a scaling question; we can't go into it in this thread.
It was an offhand comment asking what in the P&A or techniques section mentions/describes its existence in the Pure World.

I mean, sure, but I have no idea what exactly there is to add about it, iirc he has not really got any special ability due to being from the Pure World, at least so far.