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Copen vs Archer: Men among Demigods
- Thread starter The_Smashor
- Start date
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Well, Copen's Septima are purely replications. Not sure if that science can really harm Servants at all.
Anyways, assuming he gets passed that, I'm not gonna vote but I better explain how Prevasion works in case no one understands and misinterprets
It's essentially (automatic on hit) elemental intangibility, it turns Copen into electrons to automatically negate incoming damage. It costs one "Bullit", but Copen can instantly "reload" his Bullits. Even the game itself acknowledges that Copen is essentially "invincible" so long as he keeps track of his Bullit count and "reloads" accordingly. In this intangible state however, he still is capable of attacking as well with his weapons, even striking with physical blows too. Best way to think about it is that you don't really "hit" the dude without taking care of the Bullits first, which then again, can be reloaded.
But even then, uh- Copen can't really hurt... EMIYA either.... Caladbolg II GG Stomp?
Anyways, assuming he gets passed that, I'm not gonna vote but I better explain how Prevasion works in case no one understands and misinterprets
It's essentially (automatic on hit) elemental intangibility, it turns Copen into electrons to automatically negate incoming damage. It costs one "Bullit", but Copen can instantly "reload" his Bullits. Even the game itself acknowledges that Copen is essentially "invincible" so long as he keeps track of his Bullit count and "reloads" accordingly. In this intangible state however, he still is capable of attacking as well with his weapons, even striking with physical blows too. Best way to think about it is that you don't really "hit" the dude without taking care of the Bullits first, which then again, can be reloaded.
But even then, uh- Copen can't really hurt... EMIYA either.... Caladbolg II GG Stomp?
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but from my understanding playing GV1 and GV2, most things in the verse are technology-based, with the only exception being Septima. However, Copen simply replicates each Septima taken from a GV boss with science, not any supernatural or magical means.
Thus... Copen kinda can't hurt Archer... at all.
All Servants are immune to natural things in the world that aren't mysteries, supernatural, or magical, and since Copen replicated each Septima he obtained through science, he can't harm Archer.
Even if he was able to, Archer would swiftly recognize the AP gap and immediately play the range game, and comparing the two, Archer has more projectiles to throw out. There's also the fact that Caladbolg II exists, which would one shot since Durability Negation, and since it bends space-time it'd ignore Prevasion.
This is all not accounting for UBW either.
Thus... Copen kinda can't hurt Archer... at all.
All Servants are immune to natural things in the world that aren't mysteries, supernatural, or magical, and since Copen replicated each Septima he obtained through science, he can't harm Archer.
Even if he was able to, Archer would swiftly recognize the AP gap and immediately play the range game, and comparing the two, Archer has more projectiles to throw out. There's also the fact that Caladbolg II exists, which would one shot since Durability Negation, and since it bends space-time it'd ignore Prevasion.
This is all not accounting for UBW either.
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Update: Copen in GV2 can. I had Mark play through the games and we both kinda skipped the dialogue because yeah. I forgot a detail.
Normally, with Copen's EX Weapons. He replicates em, as seen in LAiX
"Using data from the fight, we were able to imitate that Falcon's Septima to create a new weapon: an EX Weapon"
But in Gunvolt 2 (this is 8-4 Translations so take this with a grain of salt, I can't find the better translations anywhere)
"The EX Weapon System lets me install Shards into Lola. Then she can use them to recreate Septima"
For context, the Shards refer to Zonda's Phantasmal Mirror, her Septima. They contain the Muse Septima, as well as the original holder's Septima. If Lola uses those to create Septima, then they are likely very legit and are the actual thing, instead of the Pseudoseptima he normally creates in GV1 and GV2.
This fact may be subject to change though as I do more research, just in case... We should likely put this in Copen's page.
Still... Caladbolg gg... Copen's Septima "resistance" does sort of work, but it's more of that it doesn't let Septima screw with his technology. In the scan that Septima Resistance links to (which is legit btw, comes from Dangeki Profiles provided by Inti themselves), it specifically is talking about Milas, the water Septima user trying to short circuit Copen's tech, which doesn't work. So it's not that Copen has resistance, it's that his technology has that resistance, assuming further would likely be NLF. Besides, these resistances are built up by actual experiences in battles, Copen has never fought a space warper before (if you wanna count analyzing Jota... Fine? But he only really got the light portion out of it instead of the whole ripping space time. Merak never used his space warping offensively either, so that's a no go). Even after all of that, even a 100 years later in LAiX, Copen wasn't able to get a good defense against electricity Septima for his tech, so it's likely that this resistance is just for general things that can screw with tech and not for every little thing, especially something as strong as Space manip, warping a part of reality itself.
We gotta revise that part of the profile... Yeah.
Of course, the possibility of dodging it still exists. Caladbolg II hit through Medea's teleportation, but that was because like, Medea's teleport was space displacement if I recall. Not sure if that's the case, but if it is, Copen could potentially Bullit Dash to dodge, which gives quite a massive speed boost. But then there's Eye of the Mind and the massive gap of experience. Copen is 14 in Gunvolt 2. Archer has been fighting for longer than Copen has even lived. I'm not gonna say it's a stomp where Archer fires one arrow and it's GG since I don't think he'd start with that (Caladbolg takes a decent bit of sauce if I recall), along with the charge time. So Copen has a chance here-
So I guess here I go with Copen's points:
First off, Prevasion. Well, that's pretty much the most significant thing he has. Pretty much none of Archer's attacks work against it if I recall all of his weapons aside from Caladbolg, letting Copen cross the distance unscathed until he does so. With his speed from Bullit Dashing, Copen is likely gonna at least tag Archer some of the time, though it'd be hard with Eye of the Mind. He'll need attacks that cover a larger area for that... That is the case, if he can even get close enough for CQC in the first place. But, if he does get a tag in- he has a one shot of his own. Hailstorm Blade is a weapon that generates "below absolute zero" ice (official websites states that, as well as Dangeki), causing those who are hit by it to lose pliability and shatter on contact. But considering that kiting... Exists since Archer would see Copen approaching and back off. Eventually, Archer would see his arrows don't work in this cat and mouse game, and use Caladbolg eventually.
Flashfield would deflect normally arrows, but all Archer would have to do if either use a sword arrow or just charge up his arrows more. We've seen swords and crystals ignore the barrier, it's safe to say that Archer's stronger attacks could as well.
Healing is very effective, but it basically is just delaying the evitable, nothing will really change since Caladbolg is just a one shot anyways
Copen won't get many, if at all any chances to get his OHKO off. While Archer has access to his own at all times. But still, Prevasion makes all the difference here so Copen really does have a chance if he closes the gap. Copen still does have an answer to this with Vantage Raid, which binds victims in place when the projectile hits. But considering it's a linear angle of fire, Archer won't have a problem dodging it or destroying the projectile, after all, he's Archer, a Servant class skilled at ranged combat, while Copen is defined to have a closer range style given his style involves slamming his gun into them, just that he has tools that work at long range less effectively.
One last thing up Copen's sleeve, Bullit Dashing, his main tool is a very great tool to have for gap closing. However, it's also pretty linear, which means Eye of the Mind comes into play. Copen CAN get close enough, but it costs a lot of Bullits to do so, he's gonna have to reload often (which stops his movement a bit, if he's in the air, he'll fast fall stomp into he ground... I gotta add that to the profile too... Ugh), giving Archer time to run away some more. Copen's still going to have a hard time rushing him, the point still stands that Archer's OHKO can be attempted any time, and Copen's can't. Sure he has the versatility to help him get to closer ranges via something like Vantage Raid, but again, not very relevant against Archer.
And if he DOES get in, Rho Aias would stop a Bullit Dash in its tracks, all of this while Archer is probably chanting UBW recognizing that Copen can beat him if he gets close, which at that point... He'll have a lot of Caladbolg's to work with.
TL;DR: Both can get one shot. Copen's OHKO is close range, Archer's is long range. Copen can't get in easily, even with Bullit Dashing (cuz he needs to reload). Archer can't land a hit easily. But Archer has more chances to actually land his, and Copen doesn't. Archer has experience advantage, and Copen is on a time limit because UBW.
Archer high-diffing imo. It's a dangerous opponent he's up against tho.
Normally, with Copen's EX Weapons. He replicates em, as seen in LAiX
"Using data from the fight, we were able to imitate that Falcon's Septima to create a new weapon: an EX Weapon"
But in Gunvolt 2 (this is 8-4 Translations so take this with a grain of salt, I can't find the better translations anywhere)
"The EX Weapon System lets me install Shards into Lola. Then she can use them to recreate Septima"
For context, the Shards refer to Zonda's Phantasmal Mirror, her Septima. They contain the Muse Septima, as well as the original holder's Septima. If Lola uses those to create Septima, then they are likely very legit and are the actual thing, instead of the Pseudoseptima he normally creates in GV1 and GV2.
This fact may be subject to change though as I do more research, just in case... We should likely put this in Copen's page.
Still... Caladbolg gg... Copen's Septima "resistance" does sort of work, but it's more of that it doesn't let Septima screw with his technology. In the scan that Septima Resistance links to (which is legit btw, comes from Dangeki Profiles provided by Inti themselves), it specifically is talking about Milas, the water Septima user trying to short circuit Copen's tech, which doesn't work. So it's not that Copen has resistance, it's that his technology has that resistance, assuming further would likely be NLF. Besides, these resistances are built up by actual experiences in battles, Copen has never fought a space warper before (if you wanna count analyzing Jota... Fine? But he only really got the light portion out of it instead of the whole ripping space time. Merak never used his space warping offensively either, so that's a no go). Even after all of that, even a 100 years later in LAiX, Copen wasn't able to get a good defense against electricity Septima for his tech, so it's likely that this resistance is just for general things that can screw with tech and not for every little thing, especially something as strong as Space manip, warping a part of reality itself.
We gotta revise that part of the profile... Yeah.
Of course, the possibility of dodging it still exists. Caladbolg II hit through Medea's teleportation, but that was because like, Medea's teleport was space displacement if I recall. Not sure if that's the case, but if it is, Copen could potentially Bullit Dash to dodge, which gives quite a massive speed boost. But then there's Eye of the Mind and the massive gap of experience. Copen is 14 in Gunvolt 2. Archer has been fighting for longer than Copen has even lived. I'm not gonna say it's a stomp where Archer fires one arrow and it's GG since I don't think he'd start with that (Caladbolg takes a decent bit of sauce if I recall), along with the charge time. So Copen has a chance here-
So I guess here I go with Copen's points:
First off, Prevasion. Well, that's pretty much the most significant thing he has. Pretty much none of Archer's attacks work against it if I recall all of his weapons aside from Caladbolg, letting Copen cross the distance unscathed until he does so. With his speed from Bullit Dashing, Copen is likely gonna at least tag Archer some of the time, though it'd be hard with Eye of the Mind. He'll need attacks that cover a larger area for that... That is the case, if he can even get close enough for CQC in the first place. But, if he does get a tag in- he has a one shot of his own. Hailstorm Blade is a weapon that generates "below absolute zero" ice (official websites states that, as well as Dangeki), causing those who are hit by it to lose pliability and shatter on contact. But considering that kiting... Exists since Archer would see Copen approaching and back off. Eventually, Archer would see his arrows don't work in this cat and mouse game, and use Caladbolg eventually.
Flashfield would deflect normally arrows, but all Archer would have to do if either use a sword arrow or just charge up his arrows more. We've seen swords and crystals ignore the barrier, it's safe to say that Archer's stronger attacks could as well.
Healing is very effective, but it basically is just delaying the evitable, nothing will really change since Caladbolg is just a one shot anyways
Copen won't get many, if at all any chances to get his OHKO off. While Archer has access to his own at all times. But still, Prevasion makes all the difference here so Copen really does have a chance if he closes the gap. Copen still does have an answer to this with Vantage Raid, which binds victims in place when the projectile hits. But considering it's a linear angle of fire, Archer won't have a problem dodging it or destroying the projectile, after all, he's Archer, a Servant class skilled at ranged combat, while Copen is defined to have a closer range style given his style involves slamming his gun into them, just that he has tools that work at long range less effectively.
One last thing up Copen's sleeve, Bullit Dashing, his main tool is a very great tool to have for gap closing. However, it's also pretty linear, which means Eye of the Mind comes into play. Copen CAN get close enough, but it costs a lot of Bullits to do so, he's gonna have to reload often (which stops his movement a bit, if he's in the air, he'll fast fall stomp into he ground... I gotta add that to the profile too... Ugh), giving Archer time to run away some more. Copen's still going to have a hard time rushing him, the point still stands that Archer's OHKO can be attempted any time, and Copen's can't. Sure he has the versatility to help him get to closer ranges via something like Vantage Raid, but again, not very relevant against Archer.
And if he DOES get in, Rho Aias would stop a Bullit Dash in its tracks, all of this while Archer is probably chanting UBW recognizing that Copen can beat him if he gets close, which at that point... He'll have a lot of Caladbolg's to work with.
TL;DR: Both can get one shot. Copen's OHKO is close range, Archer's is long range. Copen can't get in easily, even with Bullit Dashing (cuz he needs to reload). Archer can't land a hit easily. But Archer has more chances to actually land his, and Copen doesn't. Archer has experience advantage, and Copen is on a time limit because UBW.
Archer high-diffing imo. It's a dangerous opponent he's up against tho.
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Doesn't Archer's OHKO take 40 seconds to charge? A Sub-Rel+ character can cover 4 km in 40 seconds.
Also, it can be argued that Copen's septimal resistances could be comparable to Gunvolt's that let him survive Jota's Spatial Manipulation, espesially since Jota is a DLC boss in Gunvolt 2 and Copen can survive his Spatial Manipulation there. This is further reinforced by Copen's septimal resistances likely being what let him survive Tenjian's Septima.
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Xmark voted for Archer btw
Not sure about the charge time being required- but first off, speed equal, Bullit Dashing can help it, but another thing- even if he catches up with the kiting, Archer is likely going to be in Spirit Form to hide away, which is an infinitely long intangible state, something Copen just can't get past like he can with Gunvolt. Archer runs away while Copen doesn't know where is- resumes chanting and Caladbolg II.
We'll discuss the spatial thing later. But even assuming that it only damages, still think Archer high diffing for basically all of the above reasons except that it'd be multiple hits instead of one, it still deals a heck ton of damage if it can one shot a life of Herc (apparently), just that he has less chances to shoot from what I originally had estimated. 40 seconds is a lot, yet not a lot for these characters imo. In addition, he may notice Copen reloading from time to time with his arrow shots, so not only will he be using Caladbolg, but also Hrunting as well. That thing tracks hard, even if it phases through Prevasion it'll keep doing that over and over until it hits. Copen would have to spend more of his time Reloading, and while his Bullit Dashing requires.... Bullits. Yes Copen can heal, but the fact remains that there's more time for Archer to run and chant UBW, and I don't think Healing can recharge as fast as a storm of Caladbolg death to activate a second time.
Not sure about the charge time being required- but first off, speed equal, Bullit Dashing can help it, but another thing- even if he catches up with the kiting, Archer is likely going to be in Spirit Form to hide away, which is an infinitely long intangible state, something Copen just can't get past like he can with Gunvolt. Archer runs away while Copen doesn't know where is- resumes chanting and Caladbolg II.
We'll discuss the spatial thing later. But even assuming that it only damages, still think Archer high diffing for basically all of the above reasons except that it'd be multiple hits instead of one, it still deals a heck ton of damage if it can one shot a life of Herc (apparently), just that he has less chances to shoot from what I originally had estimated. 40 seconds is a lot, yet not a lot for these characters imo. In addition, he may notice Copen reloading from time to time with his arrow shots, so not only will he be using Caladbolg, but also Hrunting as well. That thing tracks hard, even if it phases through Prevasion it'll keep doing that over and over until it hits. Copen would have to spend more of his time Reloading, and while his Bullit Dashing requires.... Bullits. Yes Copen can heal, but the fact remains that there's more time for Archer to run and chant UBW, and I don't think Healing can recharge as fast as a storm of Caladbolg death to activate a second time.
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Was it the giant explosion of spacehax Caladborg or just shooting the sword?
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what
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No I mean did the explosion happen or did Archer shoot the sword without it exploding? Because I seriously remember it being stated Archer needs to charge up his bigger explosions.
John985
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Thats Hrunting, not Caladbolg.
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Ah. Well it's kind of weird that a sword that just pierces things takes longer to charge than a space-distorting explosion but aight.
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Correct
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The first is much more dangerous because most servants resist spatial manipulation
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...
It it wasn't for how long I've been in Versus Debating that would be one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. And yet I absolutely believe it.
It it wasn't for how long I've been in Versus Debating that would be one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. And yet I absolutely believe it.
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Archer FRA
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