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Guess we do not have other option than wait.
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Cooling and Cloud Calculations
- Thread starter RatherClueless
- Start date
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Nobody claims this will be easy. I'm not ok with delaying this to the summer, but if it need be, I can wait.
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Because it's right, or if it isn't you utterly failed to prove otherwise.
The math behind heat feats is made up just so that we can slap a tier on abilities that are otherwise no more quantifiable than creation feats.
It being hard does not mean its strong. The longer it goes the harder it'll get.
Just put out the note for heat feats to not be applied anymore, and slice it up into segments. Ice creation, ambient heat changing, cloud feats, however.
It's bizarre to see people throw "this again?" out as if it's an argument. The fact that the exact same thing passed for water on account of it being employed only for three verses as far as we see certainly shows why this isn't being accepted.
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Bump
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bump
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I guess it would be more appropiated to continue this revision when people enter in vacations from school, that I guess it would be in... July? Not sure how it works now with the pandemic and such.
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I think we could probably be with a recap too.
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Since we are almost hitting july, perhaps it would be good idea to resume this revision soon.
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I agree with continuing this.
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Whew, I'll try to read through it again, but a very abridged version of this was "physics for cooling are extremely different than physics for heating, our current calcs use made-up physics, they should be discarded".
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So, a TL;DR of the OP below. Of course, read it itself to get the full and better argument. And some direct refute for past arguments are there, too.
In the realms of heat manipulation, magically increasing the heat of something can be equated to adding energy to a closed system (exchange of energy, but not of matter). This heat makes molecules move faster. There seems to be the misinterpretation that to heat one thing, another has to cool, which is incorrect (for example, working out burning calories, but not cooling anything).
Cooling, however, is different. Adding energy would merely heat the (closed) system up. So calcing freezing this way is impossible.
You could try to force a molecule to stop moving with energy, but that would heat things up even more, endlessly escalating until you need infinite energy.
Lastly and most realistically, you could try to move the energy into another system (ie. a fan blowing air on you, cooling your body down by the air taking the heat). However, here the energy needed to move the heat from one system to another isn't proportional to the energy moved.
The wiki deals with it differently. How? Dunno. Most often I (and the OP) see the assumption being that the energy is poofed out of existence. I personally can agree some stories just handwave that, but then there is an obvious problem of how could you possibly force physics to apply in such a case just to make a sweet calc?
The cooling problem applies to cloud condensation calcs as well. It assumes that to move the energy from water away to condense it, is equal to the amount of energy moved. As the OP says: It's like claiming putting a lid on a boiling pot takes as much energy as water condensing on the lid does.
Cloud condensation would be an exothermic reaction (reactions that release light or heat), but to cause such a reaction doesn't at all have to scale to the amount of energy moved by the reaction itself.
Another problem, entropy: Separating an ice cube that has melted into soda is a lot harder than dropping an ice cube into soda. Entropy works like that, where to reverse something can be a lot harder than to do it, such as cooling vs heating. While this could technically mean freezing calcs are lowballs, the problem is that exothermic reactions are highly varying in energy needed. Water vapor condensing can happen with no added energy, while we all know that fridges need to be powered, and yet both are exothermic.
In the realms of heat manipulation, magically increasing the heat of something can be equated to adding energy to a closed system (exchange of energy, but not of matter). This heat makes molecules move faster. There seems to be the misinterpretation that to heat one thing, another has to cool, which is incorrect (for example, working out burning calories, but not cooling anything).
Cooling, however, is different. Adding energy would merely heat the (closed) system up. So calcing freezing this way is impossible.
You could try to force a molecule to stop moving with energy, but that would heat things up even more, endlessly escalating until you need infinite energy.
Lastly and most realistically, you could try to move the energy into another system (ie. a fan blowing air on you, cooling your body down by the air taking the heat). However, here the energy needed to move the heat from one system to another isn't proportional to the energy moved.
The wiki deals with it differently. How? Dunno. Most often I (and the OP) see the assumption being that the energy is poofed out of existence. I personally can agree some stories just handwave that, but then there is an obvious problem of how could you possibly force physics to apply in such a case just to make a sweet calc?
The cooling problem applies to cloud condensation calcs as well. It assumes that to move the energy from water away to condense it, is equal to the amount of energy moved. As the OP says: It's like claiming putting a lid on a boiling pot takes as much energy as water condensing on the lid does.
Cloud condensation would be an exothermic reaction (reactions that release light or heat), but to cause such a reaction doesn't at all have to scale to the amount of energy moved by the reaction itself.
Another problem, entropy: Separating an ice cube that has melted into soda is a lot harder than dropping an ice cube into soda. Entropy works like that, where to reverse something can be a lot harder than to do it, such as cooling vs heating. While this could technically mean freezing calcs are lowballs, the problem is that exothermic reactions are highly varying in energy needed. Water vapor condensing can happen with no added energy, while we all know that fridges need to be powered, and yet both are exothermic.
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As someone whose having to retake Physics in summer school and just had their head rammed through a Calorimetry lab, I think that basically sums up the problem.
Ice calcs basically work by saying- "This measured volume of ice was originally water that got frozen. The specific heat of water and latent heat of fusion of ice means that for this mass of ice, it'd take [X] much energy to heat it to the water it originally was. Therefore, it must also take [X] much energy to freeze the water into ice."
This implies that
1. Either the character who froze the water has thermal energy manipulation and just removed that much energy to turn it to ice. (Where that much heat energy went? It got deleted or something.)-
This is kinda reasonable considering that conservation of energy is violated all the time in fiction, and some people with freezing abilities genuinely do use thermal energy manipulation to freeze stuff. However, this doesn't hold as a universal method for AP by freezing, as it assumes that every character who has cold/ice powers does it by removing energy, which they often don't. Character's often freeze things by just... using their freezing abilities on an object, and the object suddenly acts like it's inside a fridge or drenched in liquid nitrogen, even though it's still in open air. (Either that or by shooting "coldness" at it)
- or 2. Since melting a mass of ice into water require this much energy, freezing an equal mass of water into ice must also require that much energy as it's the same thing just reversed. In other words, the water got frozen into ice... by adding energy to it.
This is not how physics works. (And it's also going by the same logic that the Creation Feat of [Z] has the same AP as what would be required to destroy [Z], because creation and destruction are the same thing but reversed)
(Also, folk heat up while working out because a bit of mechanical energy gets turned into thermal energy like when you rub your hands together; no part of them has to get cooler)
Ice calcs basically work by saying- "This measured volume of ice was originally water that got frozen. The specific heat of water and latent heat of fusion of ice means that for this mass of ice, it'd take [X] much energy to heat it to the water it originally was. Therefore, it must also take [X] much energy to freeze the water into ice."
This implies that
1. Either the character who froze the water has thermal energy manipulation and just removed that much energy to turn it to ice. (Where that much heat energy went? It got deleted or something.)-
This is kinda reasonable considering that conservation of energy is violated all the time in fiction, and some people with freezing abilities genuinely do use thermal energy manipulation to freeze stuff. However, this doesn't hold as a universal method for AP by freezing, as it assumes that every character who has cold/ice powers does it by removing energy, which they often don't. Character's often freeze things by just... using their freezing abilities on an object, and the object suddenly acts like it's inside a fridge or drenched in liquid nitrogen, even though it's still in open air. (Either that or by shooting "coldness" at it)
- or 2. Since melting a mass of ice into water require this much energy, freezing an equal mass of water into ice must also require that much energy as it's the same thing just reversed. In other words, the water got frozen into ice... by adding energy to it.
This is not how physics works. (And it's also going by the same logic that the Creation Feat of [Z] has the same AP as what would be required to destroy [Z], because creation and destruction are the same thing but reversed)
(Also, folk heat up while working out because a bit of mechanical energy gets turned into thermal energy like when you rub your hands together; no part of them has to get cooler)
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Well, yes, the problem is that real-world physics hardly rules into what the authors do for such cases. To assume everyone who can freeze stuff has energy EE is... ridiculous. This scaling to energy consumed to do the EE, is another assumption on top of it.
The arguments for stuff like that aren't made to make sense, but to be able to put a number on a hard-to-qualify feat.
The arguments for stuff like that aren't made to make sense, but to be able to put a number on a hard-to-qualify feat.
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Bump
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DontTalk has not replied to multiple rebuttals made to his last point.
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Some time has happened, but I think that one of DT's arguments stated that cooling is acceptable since it would involve displacing heat (or call energy), however cooling does not do that, it simply erases heat rather than moving it.
Maybe RatherClueless could expand a little more.
Maybe RatherClueless could expand a little more.
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Medeus told me in private that he and multiple other staff members think that this thread should be closed, but that they are burned out in terms of arguing over and over about this subject in multiple threads, so I think that it seems best to close this discussion.
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If the thread closes because a conclusion has been reached, then that makes sense, but if folk are just tired of arguing (which is fair enough), then it can be left open and then come back to later.
(Side note- DemonGodMitchAubin that there's been 3 threads on this before. Are those back up here and readable by any chance or did they get deleted in the forum move?)
(Side note- DemonGodMitchAubin that there's been 3 threads on this before. Are those back up here and readable by any chance or did they get deleted in the forum move?)
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They have argued about this in several long threads, and cannot be expected to start all over again every few months.
Medeus said that @DontTalkDT was interested in creating a discussion rule against this topic, which is fine with me.
Medeus said that @DontTalkDT was interested in creating a discussion rule against this topic, which is fine with me.
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This does not change the obvious issue of DontTalk not responding to multiple new points made to his. He must respond to these before the topic is closed, as it is a stupid decision for his word to be completely final and unalienable without responding to criticism.
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I asked not to close it yet as much as I do agree it should because obvious burn outs, I'm still working on my take. But most of the "New points" aren't actually new points as they were also rebutted on previous threads; Dargoo was the 1st one to bring up each and every single point, and even he ultimately conceded.
But I'm still going to come back eventually. Hopefully not too long.
But I'm still going to come back eventually. Hopefully not too long.
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Take your time, Summer doesn't exactly end in a day. Come back when you are ready.
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Very well, if the staff is still busy with other stuff, we can still put a hold at this.
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They are very much readable. I even went through the entire last thread and rebuttled every argument
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If they want to wait longer before coming here, sure. Closing this however is a huge no-go.
1. The vast majority of people actually agree with what I am saying
2. The vast majority of arguments brought were rebuttaled
3. Even if we continue to use cooling calculations, there are still massive issues in how we use them (which I have talked about in the op), which nobody has even bothered to touch upon. So that debate would still need to be had regardless
4. Closing a thread because some staff members are "too tired to debate" is by no means a good reason. Not to mention that there are several staff members agreeing with this as well
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Oh and one more thing. Since people keep telling me "but we already talked about that" and "those points arent new". I might have only rebuttled the last thread, but if people really want me to I can also go through the 2 threads made by Dargoo and rebuttle those as well (Just to be clear, I did read them. Just didnt bother to rebuttle each and every argument in the op)
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Saying that expecting people to come back after months when this thread was delayed for months with the express porpuse of people coming back when they are free is rather nonsensical to me. Not wanting to argue is fine, but wanting to just push the argument under a rug is not.
I mean, while I might be blind and have missed a brilliant rebuttal, our calcs still use made up physics no matter how you slice things.
I mean, while I might be blind and have missed a brilliant rebuttal, our calcs still use made up physics no matter how you slice things.
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I would recommend to finish this soon: this method of calculation is widely used, so if it get accept (or well, unable to be properly rebutted) then it will revert a bunch of profile, a number it increases by every week we wait.
Plus, I have the feeling that, if me or someone else, reminds the status of this revision everyone month, it will trigger the same answers: "we are tired of discussing this", "we are busy with studies", or even "if you are still pushing this your just trying to destabilize the wiki".
Plus, I have the feeling that, if me or someone else, reminds the status of this revision everyone month, it will trigger the same answers: "we are tired of discussing this", "we are busy with studies", or even "if you are still pushing this your just trying to destabilize the wiki".
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@DontTalkDT
My apologies for bothering you about this, but the proponents seem to be very persistent here, so your evaluations would be appreciated.
My apologies for bothering you about this, but the proponents seem to be very persistent here, so your evaluations would be appreciated.
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Might as well ask for more staff members than just DT to comment here, since he has not only already given his opinion but also tends to be fairly busy
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Also, I feel like I should summarize some of my main points and clarify a bit, since people tend to get the wrong ideas.
Although the calculation not making any sense is one of my issues, it isn't even necessarily my main issue or at least not anymore. I made the "science section" as long as it is and gave as many sources as I did so people won't even bother debating the legitimacy of the calc itself, like it was done in several previous threads. So instead what I received were several baseless assumptions on how to possibly make these calculations legit. I'll go over them a bit further below.
Another issue I talked about is not just how we calculate cooling feats, but also how we end up using the calculated values, which is honestly a far bigger issue that I have. Since I don't think anyone even bothered to debate me on this topic as of yet, I assume I simply did a pss poor job at making this clear in the op, so I'll use this opportunity to make the points more clear.
So, what, what exactly are the previously mentioned assumptions? Well, there are many one can make, so I'll just go through them all. Currently the justification for cooling feats is that we treat the simple displacement of energy as AP. Not a big fan of that, but fair enoigh. This isn't really a topic I want to get into. The real issue comes from the assumptions on how it is done. From several discussions, on and off the site, as well as previous threads, some of the possible assumptions on "how it might work" are:
There are several "Issue Topics" I'd like to cover. Those being: "Scaling to oneself", "Scaling to others" and "Usability as a whole"
I'll start with Energy Manipulation and "scaling to oneself" or how others may refer to it "having the same energy source"
So, as an example, take character V, who uses their magic/power (which is just Energy Manipulation) to move X amount energy from point A to point B. Now this character, as by the current system, would scale to X amount of energy, but that's not all. All of their other spells would now also scale to the dislocated amount of energy. Why is that an issue? Because this implies that moving X energy required no energy at all. Why is that a issue? Because other abilities would need to scale to what the character output, not X. What exactly would be the energy needed to move X amount of energy using a supernatural ability not based in any kind of science? Would that also be X? The answer is "we don't know". Quite frankly, there is not even a semi decent guess we can make here. Another issue with assuming Energy Manipulation is that there is no reason as to why a character would only be able to cool things down and not heat things up. This issue also applies for all other assumptions except Energy Erasing and Energy Absorption.
Next up is Matter Manipulation. This simply assumes that Character V can mess with the matter itself down to the atomic level and cool it down this way. The obvious issue out of the way, this is hax. The second most obvious one out of the way as well, this is an absurd assumption, since this would allow characters to do way more than just cool/heat things. Even if for some odd reasons limited to cooling or heating (which wouldn't make much sense, but whatever), this assumption is way out there.
For the third one we have Telekinesis. Quite frankly, this one might be even more out there than Matter Manipulation, since there is really no way one can argue that a character that can precisely manipulate septillions, octillions or even nonillions of atoms can't use that for anything else. Thinking that anyone who can cool something down has super precise atomic telekinesis is a crazy, baseless assumption.
Energy Erasing and Absorption. I put these two into the same category since it'll end up basically the same. If we assume it gets absorbed, we have two options. Option No.1 is that the character actually gets to use that energy and basically has infinite energy for as long as they freeze stuff, which makes no sense. Option No.2 is that they can't actually use that energy since it is different from the power source they are using, making it completely useless to the point where it might have simply been erased and the character has no reason to scale. I suppose there is a third option where the character absorbs energy which they can use, as well as their ability requiring energy to use, but that would bring us back to the same issue as with Energy Manipulation, which is "we have no clue to figure that one out", as well as the assumption that a character can absorb the energy to begin with being quite out there. Oh and obviously erasing energy is simply hax.
Now to Probability Manipulation. For anyone who doesn't know how this one would work, I recommend to look up "Maxwell's Demon". Issues here clearly being once again that this is straight up hax, meaning it wouldn't scale to anything. There is also yet again the issue that there would be no reason as to why this can't be used for different things.
Last but not least, laser cooling. This would have so many other uses it'd be insane. That's rly all I'll say about this. I don't think anyone here would have been desperate enough to actually bring up Light Manipulation as a valid option anyways.
Just a quick note before I continue. Characters that qualify for one of these assumptions and I mean actually qualify for them, would obviously be exempt from all of the "that's a crazy assumption" talk. So any assumption where that's my only argument against them (at least as of now) would most likely be fine to use.
The next big topic is "scaling to others". Since we have already established that a character scaling to the feat themselves rarely makes any sense, the what about other characters getting hit? To make a long story short, breaking (out of) ice isn't equal to the thermal energy difference needed to create the ice, resisting being frozen isn't equal to the thermal energy difference needed to create the ice and getting hit in the face by a chunk of ice obviously isn't equal to the thermal energy difference needed to create the ice either. TLDR, it doesn't scale no matter how you want to look at it.
The last issue to tackle is the "usability" of the number we get from the calc. What do I mean by that? Well, let’s take a character like Karim from fire force. He actually gives a pretty in detailed description of how is powers work. He uses his ability to manipulate heat to remove energy from the air. So, what's the issue? Well the issue is related to the first second one. When he freezes someone, it doesn't scale, if someone breaks his ice, it doesn't scale and him throwing his ice doesn't scale either. Now one might say "but why can't he use the same amount of energy he can manipulate to throw the ice?" and the answer to that is in the explanation as to why we can't simply assume "Energy Manipulation" to scale across abilities.
Now there is just one more point I want to mention. What if we assume a character actually uses a legit method of transferring heat. Well, first of all, there would be some kind of basis for this, like it being stated or straight up being shown. Simply making ice pop up into reality would obviously not qualify. However, if a character does qualify there is still the issue that it would be nigh impossible to calculate unless the author is very specific about it. If the character has an ability that either act like a heat pump or a heat sink, we can't really calculate it, nor can we use our calculation even as an approximation, since they might very well be vastly below our results. Then what about the assumption of using some kind of "refrigerant" (this might even be air). Well in that case we could in fact use our calculation as a low ball. However, a character would very clearly need to demonstrate such an ability.
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Just to be clear, these aren't my only issues. I for example also take issue with cloud creation feats, since those don’t even make the tiniest bit of sense. This was simply to clear up some things and go into more detail where I felt it was absolutely necessary.
Although the calculation not making any sense is one of my issues, it isn't even necessarily my main issue or at least not anymore. I made the "science section" as long as it is and gave as many sources as I did so people won't even bother debating the legitimacy of the calc itself, like it was done in several previous threads. So instead what I received were several baseless assumptions on how to possibly make these calculations legit. I'll go over them a bit further below.
Another issue I talked about is not just how we calculate cooling feats, but also how we end up using the calculated values, which is honestly a far bigger issue that I have. Since I don't think anyone even bothered to debate me on this topic as of yet, I assume I simply did a pss poor job at making this clear in the op, so I'll use this opportunity to make the points more clear.
So, what, what exactly are the previously mentioned assumptions? Well, there are many one can make, so I'll just go through them all. Currently the justification for cooling feats is that we treat the simple displacement of energy as AP. Not a big fan of that, but fair enoigh. This isn't really a topic I want to get into. The real issue comes from the assumptions on how it is done. From several discussions, on and off the site, as well as previous threads, some of the possible assumptions on "how it might work" are:
- Energy Manipulation
- Matter Manipulation
- Telekinesis
- Energy Erasing
- Energy Absorbtion
- Probability Manipulation
- Light Manipulation
There are several "Issue Topics" I'd like to cover. Those being: "Scaling to oneself", "Scaling to others" and "Usability as a whole"
I'll start with Energy Manipulation and "scaling to oneself" or how others may refer to it "having the same energy source"
So, as an example, take character V, who uses their magic/power (which is just Energy Manipulation) to move X amount energy from point A to point B. Now this character, as by the current system, would scale to X amount of energy, but that's not all. All of their other spells would now also scale to the dislocated amount of energy. Why is that an issue? Because this implies that moving X energy required no energy at all. Why is that a issue? Because other abilities would need to scale to what the character output, not X. What exactly would be the energy needed to move X amount of energy using a supernatural ability not based in any kind of science? Would that also be X? The answer is "we don't know". Quite frankly, there is not even a semi decent guess we can make here. Another issue with assuming Energy Manipulation is that there is no reason as to why a character would only be able to cool things down and not heat things up. This issue also applies for all other assumptions except Energy Erasing and Energy Absorption.
Next up is Matter Manipulation. This simply assumes that Character V can mess with the matter itself down to the atomic level and cool it down this way. The obvious issue out of the way, this is hax. The second most obvious one out of the way as well, this is an absurd assumption, since this would allow characters to do way more than just cool/heat things. Even if for some odd reasons limited to cooling or heating (which wouldn't make much sense, but whatever), this assumption is way out there.
For the third one we have Telekinesis. Quite frankly, this one might be even more out there than Matter Manipulation, since there is really no way one can argue that a character that can precisely manipulate septillions, octillions or even nonillions of atoms can't use that for anything else. Thinking that anyone who can cool something down has super precise atomic telekinesis is a crazy, baseless assumption.
Energy Erasing and Absorption. I put these two into the same category since it'll end up basically the same. If we assume it gets absorbed, we have two options. Option No.1 is that the character actually gets to use that energy and basically has infinite energy for as long as they freeze stuff, which makes no sense. Option No.2 is that they can't actually use that energy since it is different from the power source they are using, making it completely useless to the point where it might have simply been erased and the character has no reason to scale. I suppose there is a third option where the character absorbs energy which they can use, as well as their ability requiring energy to use, but that would bring us back to the same issue as with Energy Manipulation, which is "we have no clue to figure that one out", as well as the assumption that a character can absorb the energy to begin with being quite out there. Oh and obviously erasing energy is simply hax.
Now to Probability Manipulation. For anyone who doesn't know how this one would work, I recommend to look up "Maxwell's Demon". Issues here clearly being once again that this is straight up hax, meaning it wouldn't scale to anything. There is also yet again the issue that there would be no reason as to why this can't be used for different things.
Last but not least, laser cooling. This would have so many other uses it'd be insane. That's rly all I'll say about this. I don't think anyone here would have been desperate enough to actually bring up Light Manipulation as a valid option anyways.
Just a quick note before I continue. Characters that qualify for one of these assumptions and I mean actually qualify for them, would obviously be exempt from all of the "that's a crazy assumption" talk. So any assumption where that's my only argument against them (at least as of now) would most likely be fine to use.
The next big topic is "scaling to others". Since we have already established that a character scaling to the feat themselves rarely makes any sense, the what about other characters getting hit? To make a long story short, breaking (out of) ice isn't equal to the thermal energy difference needed to create the ice, resisting being frozen isn't equal to the thermal energy difference needed to create the ice and getting hit in the face by a chunk of ice obviously isn't equal to the thermal energy difference needed to create the ice either. TLDR, it doesn't scale no matter how you want to look at it.
The last issue to tackle is the "usability" of the number we get from the calc. What do I mean by that? Well, let’s take a character like Karim from fire force. He actually gives a pretty in detailed description of how is powers work. He uses his ability to manipulate heat to remove energy from the air. So, what's the issue? Well the issue is related to the first second one. When he freezes someone, it doesn't scale, if someone breaks his ice, it doesn't scale and him throwing his ice doesn't scale either. Now one might say "but why can't he use the same amount of energy he can manipulate to throw the ice?" and the answer to that is in the explanation as to why we can't simply assume "Energy Manipulation" to scale across abilities.
Now there is just one more point I want to mention. What if we assume a character actually uses a legit method of transferring heat. Well, first of all, there would be some kind of basis for this, like it being stated or straight up being shown. Simply making ice pop up into reality would obviously not qualify. However, if a character does qualify there is still the issue that it would be nigh impossible to calculate unless the author is very specific about it. If the character has an ability that either act like a heat pump or a heat sink, we can't really calculate it, nor can we use our calculation even as an approximation, since they might very well be vastly below our results. Then what about the assumption of using some kind of "refrigerant" (this might even be air). Well in that case we could in fact use our calculation as a low ball. However, a character would very clearly need to demonstrate such an ability.
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Just to be clear, these aren't my only issues. I for example also take issue with cloud creation feats, since those don’t even make the tiniest bit of sense. This was simply to clear up some things and go into more detail where I felt it was absolutely necessary.
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It is still open. It is still ongoning. People are still willing to debate this and want to debate this and want a conclusion to this. There is no reason not to at least ask other staff members to participate (unless they are Bambu). If they say that they dont want to, then they dont want to. It's that easy.
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Honestly Ant, this is a baffling take.
The request was simply not to use made up physics, or not to grant a character seven different abilities depending who you ask that they never showcased simply to slap a tier on them. Throwing out whataboutisms or false equivalences about how kinetic energy calcs has equally small basis in reality (which is wrong, and was pointed out rather extensively) is not an excuse.
Literally the only argument that has remained consistent is that it's too much if a bother to correct things, in which case why do you even bother? If you will shut down any attempts to point out blatantly made up physics because it's more convinient to use them than not, then I have to question why anybody should even try to do anything around here.
And I already hear the rebuttals of how it's a hobby, and how it shouldn't need a degree to be done - to which, don't make up physics and you might not need someone who actually understands the thing to tell you you're wrong.
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C'mon, just ping some other staff members. If DT's right, they'll agree.
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Okay then.
@AKM sama @DontTalkDT @SomebodyData @The_real_cal_howard @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Andytrenom @DarkDragonMedeus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions
What do you think about this. I would strongly suggest reading DontTalk's posts earlier in this thread.
@AKM sama @DontTalkDT @SomebodyData @The_real_cal_howard @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Andytrenom @DarkDragonMedeus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions
What do you think about this. I would strongly suggest reading DontTalk's posts earlier in this thread.
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DDM's been on this thread since its creation and has read all of DT's posts on this thread earlier, so he has a good idea of them.
Also, DT did say that he was going to make his own thread on this topic in the near future (So honestly we should just close this thread regardless and wait for DT's even bigger thread that will tackle this), but DDM himself already has quite a big rebuttal for this thread specifically in the works (He has a draft which he is working on), also AFAIK Wokistan, Bambu and AKM sama already replied on this exact topic a thread before (Jakuub's thread specifically, before he got banned) and they supported DT and DDM's proposal of keeping ice feats and cloud creation feats.
