Cool Ways to Buff a Verse: Dragon Ball

[A_Stoned_Orc]

Not to de-rail, but...

"Piccolo with the Kaioken would have torn Super Perfect Cell apart" nah. Even Kami-fused Piccolo with KK would still be inferior to SPC. Piccolo could hardly do shit to Imperfect Cell, what really makes you think that a 10x or 20x power boost (which, I mean, do we even accept KK multipliers any more?) would make him = to SPC? The gap between 1 kiloFOE 4-B and a mid-range 4-C is EXTREMELY large, much more than a 10 or 20x boost could provide a 4-C character. KK Piccolo might have ****** up Semi-Perfect Cell, but Perfect Cell and up are above his power grade without a dip into the HTC.

 

[Stefano4444]

That sound like NLF for me, at most this can be apply to only hax that has been used in the series, it should not be apply to hax that haven't been show to even exist in the verse.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Piccolo with Kaio-Ken would have absolutely torn Super Perfect Cell apart. You do realise that with the official multipliers that Super Saiyan 3 is only 8x stronger than Super Saiyan right? Piccolo would easily be capable of 20x Kaio-Ken and considering his Namekian physiology he could probably push it even higher than that.

Piccolo is WAY more powerful than the base forms of any of the saiyans in the Android saga with him being around 17-level (which is enough to effortlessly crush a Grade 1 Super Saiyan). Consider this way alright? Base Goku in the Namek saga has a power level of 3,000,000. Super Saiyan has 150,000,000. Kamicollo would be something like 300,000,000 minimum. If we say Kamicollo is 300,000,000 (a huge lowball) he would be 6,000,000,000 in Kaio-Ken X20 combined with Regenerationn hax, streching limbs, etc. Which would all augment his fighting style.

From what I see on the wiki...Kamicolle is listed as High 4-C and considering power levels are rarely linear in power increase I would say it is reasonable to believe that a X20+ Kamicolle (Post-Chamber) should be Solar System level. Again, just look at the difference of raw power from Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan 2 to Super Saiyan 3 (based on actual sources from the franchise) that show how non-linear power multiplication actually is. A X20 boost is completely and utterly insane on this basis of Piccolo already being Super Saiyan+ in base.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

@Stefano444

You do have a point. Unless of course they outright state that a greater ki can overpower anything else and explicitly state that this translates to any form of energy source, hax, etc. I have to admit that I am fond of the idea of Ki being an Anti-Hax as I feel it would suit the simplistic style of Dragon Ball.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I myself aren't too fond about it. It's the same bitter taste of "Jiren surpasses time!" or "Goku has surpassed Time Skip!" just enhanced by a 100x.

Poor Assassin Hit and his ilk would just be thrown to the bottom of the barrel because they possess no instant hair dye (true reason most of the baldies get left in the dust...) or in some not explained way, massive super ki and strength above almost everyone. Except this time, we are dragging down everyone that doesn't use ki.

Pretty much adding another new mechanic to get kicked in the ass.

 

[BlackeJan]

Here's a question:

How strong would the Z Fighters be if they had mastered their god ki?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

If we knew what that could imply, perhaps I could tell you. Angel level? After Jiren coming up and Broly growing nearer there's nothing else in-between.

 

[DMB_1]

3-A.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

-snip-

Not according to this wiki. We don't accept Super Saiyan or Kaioken multipliers, and also power level numbers were made meaningless with Freeza--we don't accept those, either. As it stands, the gap between 4-C and a 4-B that's 1 kiloFOE is so enormous that a 20x boost wouldn't be able to bridge that gap, even if we did accept the Kaioken multipliers as fact. So, you're wrong, at least in the eyes of this wiki; Kamiccolo would have still gotten his shit kicked in royally by SPC, even with a mastered Kaioken boost.

Besides, who says that Cell wouldn't have used Kaioken himself, in that event? He does have the right cells for it, and I believe the Daizenshuu mentions that he does possess that ability; if Piccolo and the other Z Fighters also used Kaioken, then Cell would absolutely have it.

 

[Stefano4444]

Not according to this wiki. We don't accept Super Saiyan or Kaioken multipliers

Actually Kaioken Multipliers are accepted.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

Not according to this wiki. We don't accept Super Saiyan or Kaioken multipliers

Actually Kaioken Multipliers are accepted.

Not anymore. I'll have to find the link to the thread, but I believe we recently classified them as non-linear in a recent CRT, much in the same way that we consider various other multipliers from other series non-linear.

EDIT: So, I'm wrong. The thread was closed after it amounted to nothing, essentially. Regardless, even with a 20x boost, you're not crossing the 4-C to 4-B gap--you wouldn't even approach baseline 4-B. So, no, Kamiccolo would *still* have gotten his shit kicked in either way.

 

[Stefano4444]

Not anymore. I'll have to find the link to the thread, but I believe we recently classified them as non-linear in a recent CRT

Are you talking about this thread?

Because the majority in that thread still agree on using the Kaioken as valid Multiplier.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

Read my edit. >_>

 

[Wokistan]

That sound like NLF for me, at most this can be apply to only hax that has been used in the series, it should not be apply to hax that haven't been show to even exist in the verse.

I was talking more a power null type deal, so it can apply to just about anything. Say their raw power overrides that of their opponents and shuts down theitbabilities if they're near them or something.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

This is going to be last I speak on the topic. It doesn't matter what this wiki says about power scaling in Dragon Ball. It doesn't change what is actually stated within the franchise itself and how the franchise depicts its transformations, power scaling and absurd leaps in strength. Denying this is just delusional outside of the limited scope of debating a battle on this wiki (which we aren't seeing as this is the off-topic board meaning I don't care about or accept those rulings when on this board).

If we were ACTUALLY arguing over it I would accept those limitations out of respect of the decisions made by the members of this wiki but since we are not...I don't give a damn. Super Saiyan 3 is 8x stronger than Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan 2 is twice as powerful as Super Saiyan. Kamicollo is vastly superior to a Grade 1 Super Saiyan and would effortlessly trash anyone from the Cell saga with X20 Kaio-Ken. This is how it was all outlined and explained within the franchise itself after all.

Anyways, moving on.

@LSirLancelotDuLacl

They pretty much already pulled that garbage in the anime AND manga. I think it's a bit too late for them to seriously go back on it (unless they want to really retcon things that badly which isn't that strange for DBS). I think a 'balance' would be if they explained it as Ki Hax having the ability to refine to the point of effecting people with a greater Ki. This would mean hax could reasonably work within the story whilst also making Ki Anti-Hax outside of the scope of Ki.

Although...I did say that I would have all of the relevant characters scaled to God of Destruction level then have them focus on developing hax abilities so they could easily make Ki have Anti-Hax properties on weaker people without infringing on the idea. Honestly, it would only take a single handwave of the Z Fighters training in the time chamber for a few years to explain why Krillin, Piccolo, etc. All have God Ki and are capable of fighting GoD level opponents. Toss in Kaio-Ken, Ultra Instinct Omen or some other BS to let them multiply their base God power to GoD level if that's more sensible.

Pretty much all of the characters that are relevant should get scaled up to Low 2-C after a training arc in the chamber. I imagine they could feasibly make it so Angel-tier is Tier 2-B meaning everyone beneath them would reach 2-C with a select few reaching into 2-B after learning to abuse the hell out of their hax and develop techniques with more raw power.

 

[Amexim]

Those who complained in that thread were only upset because they're feats purists, being blunt. Like, there's nothing false about the Kaioken, but they reflexively react with a "*screeches* Where are the feats?!?!!" As if we have no use for multipliers they accepted— as if the multipliers weren't a part of the story. Then even staff just dismiss it with a "this is asinine" without explaining— when all they have to argue on is "where are the feats?!" Knowing how inconsistent dragon Ball is. I'm sick of it.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

It's because for literally every other verse we have a set of standards for how we deal with multipliers. None of the Dragon Ball multipliers can reasonably be considered linear, and other series' multipliers are only considered such if they have legitimate feats/consistency to back them up. On this wiki, you can't just tier-jump because "lol numbers". >_> It's why we don't accept SS multipliers:

 

[Amexim]

The KK ones are accepted though. As long as the scaling is true, it doesn't matter how it goes.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Amexim, try not to use that tone. A lot of people didn't even disagree with the Kaio-Ken and only a few in the Kaio-Ken centric thread brought up the issue of the speed and not agreeing on that front. You are wording everything like everyone had nonexistent reasons, badly worded or defined reasons, or... well, just sounds incredibly disrespectful.

I can understand defending your opinion or stance, but if you sound that insulting or hostile over a disagreement that's only firing back on you.

But regardless, this is a bit off the rails.

 

[Amexim]

They don't have real reasons though, and I don't really care on a thread like this, where we can talk freely, but whatever.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

You say they don't, big difference. Your opinion doesn't become fact just because you are sure you are correct.

 

[DMUA]

And I liked that show better when it was called DRAGON BALL Z!

Vegeta is a heretic to anime

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Eat your veggies kids! Grow that all powerful Widow's Peak!

 

[DMUA]

Why do that when you can hold aloft a magic sword and say "BY THE POWER OF MULLETS"

 

[Amexim]

My statements are facts, and they just don't want to accept them because of their opinions. Goku is FACTUALLY superior to every version of himself when using the Kaioken. The only reason people disagree, despite being wrong, is because they don't like saying someone is stronger without feats, no matter how true it is. Remove the fact that we post this shit in profiles and no one would disagree. But because of politics, we have these double standards and inconsistent rationales. Which is fine, if that's just how the staff here want stuff to be.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

They can be stronger, they can't just jump an entire tier. Every other series is held to the same standard--without proven feats, or consistent, reliable statements, you're going to run out of justifiable excuses to jump tiers. Is Goku stronger than his base form/SSB when he uses Kaioken/SSBKK? Yes. Does he drastically jump tiers in AP/dura? Absolutely not, especially not the latter. It isn't a double standard, and the rationales aren't inconsistent.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Remove the fact that we post this shit in profiles and no one would disagree. But because of politics, we have these double standards and inconsistent rationales. Which is fine, if that's just how the staff here want stuff to be.

And here is exactly what I say. Could you be even more condescending? "The staff here want stuff to be?" Tons of people disagree, staff or normal users, about many things but nobody is being that needlessly rude. Some respect when we are just discussing fictio won't kill anyone.

 

[Akreious]

Give them EE that's not literally the worst in all of fictio

... What?
EE on here is just EE. Power levels has nothing to do with it. People that resisted Hakai in the show are given EE Resistance; anyone that says "Hakai doesn't work on weaker beings" needs to prove it.

And no, Goku and gang resisting Hakai Ball is not the same as the Full-On Hakai as Sidra made it so a mook could use it and Toppo was holding back as to not just insta-kill Freeza.

I mean, i'm pretty sure it wouln't be brought up in every Beerus match if it was false

It's only ever questioned like that because people adamantly refuses to listen to these reasonings and still goes along with their predetermined views on Hakai. Sure that MAY be how it works in-verse, but we don't take things in-verse at face value or else there'd be so many absolutes in fiction. Like the Hakai being able to destroy ANYTHING period. The only reason why people believe otherwise is because it's only ever used on weaker beings, but that's like saying "I only ever use my 50. Cal to kill people so it must mean it cannot harm a tank!".

 

[Amexim]

I figure it's better to be honest than to lie. I figure it's better to clarify what is and isn't bullshit. Especially when there's tons of people being rude to each other here, staff included sometimes. So long as it doesn't revolve into racial slurs and wild threats, being a little more than dismissive of actual foolishness isn't so bad. If we sat here and laugh at someone who says "Goku loses because he has black hair!" and continues to attempt to substantiate that claim, then why not at least call a spade a spade when people deny the facts of a story.

If the wiki doesn't accept it, then that's fine. That's why they run it and not me. But so long as I don't directly insult someone or call them a racial slur or whatever, and as long as I don't try to mess with the wiki's inner workings, I don't see how me saying "Goku is factually stronger than his last multipliers" is messing with anything.

It doesn't matter how condescending me reminding you of what a fact is sounds. We're here to argue facts, and there will be no discussion against them unless you disagree with accepting factual information.

In any case, we probably shouldn't always disregard in verse situations, because then we discard blatant truths.

Hax resistance in general via AP in DB isn't blatant. Kaioken multipliers are though.

 

[Akreious]

... Okay? I mean, I don't see how this reply goes... against... what I said...? the last 2 sentences are a highlight though, since it happens a lot.

Hakai only working on weaker beings isn't blatant, it being Existence Erasure is.

 

[Wokistan]

Can we not quote stuff that large thanks

 

[Andytrenom]

@Anex Have you been lead to believe that being rude and obnoxious to others is okay here? No, it is not punishable of course, but it is the opposite of the kind of behaviour that is expected here.

If you see a staff or a respected member here being rude to others and getting a pass for it, it's more often than not because they are just not able to maintain an ideal behaviour a 100% of the time, after all they are human at the end of the day and you can't expect them to act perfectly all the time.

But you aren't even making a proper attempt to be respectful here, so you don't fall under this scenario. Don't take our previous accounts of leniency as an excuse to needlessly act in a condensing and disrespectful manner. This is my advise for you.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I never told you what to factually believe or not, so please don't try to play that card. All I pointed out was your distasteful attitude about. I mean, who words themselves like common sense should dictate the obvious answer, the one you believe in, and anyone that seemingly believes in common sense must be willfully acting against you or the answer in question for whatever imagined reason? That's pretty much you about the Kaio-Ken speed isue when I spoke my piece.

I wouldn't bring such a thing up so much if it wasn't important, and it is important because if you act like that over one disagreement in a place like this, that smells like trouble that isn't really needed. People like Ant work way too much for me to make things tense because I believe my stance is the correct one and let's passively aggressively accuse who ever disagrees of double standards, favoritism or bad decision making.

Though coming back to the meat of the discussion, I would honestly hope everything in DB would just burn down to the ground. Pull out a phoenix maneuver and integrate some more cool gimmicks in, don't forget characters and remember that Ki can, oh I don't know, do more than throw really shiny planet-busting balls and layzors all day every day. You never know, the Broly movie could bring out some cool stuff,

 

[Amexim]

I'm just stating my opinion, and sticking to it. After all, someone has to be wrong in discussions about what is or isn't true. If people want to pretend like there's no such thing as a double standard on this wiki, that there isn't a "colored name" bias, then that's fine. I am just saying there is. I clearly don't care enough to do anything more about it, as all I am doing is being blunt and honest about how I feel. Staff on this wiki have the tendency to be blunt and rude to each other far more than just 10% of the time— to the point where it's really hard to not read certain things on this wiki as extremely snarky. Saying that the staff get away with more than anyone else isn't a stretch.

If I said anything that required a bit more thought or debate than the Kaioken thing, I would agree with you. But I'm not. I'm basically saying the same thing as "Goku trained on his way to Namek." It's understandable why one would be frustrated, from my perspective. This wiki has different reasons for not using what I am asking, and that's fine. But when people start to ignore what is factually true— going one step further— with actually irrational reasoning, that's where I draw the line.

If staff can just close threads with a "Nope" and not behave in at least a somewhat professional manner like Andy or Cal (usually) does, then is it not unfair to harshly judge a non-staff member for an uncharacteristic venting when it's in the nature of some staff to be confrontational or dismissive, even to each other.

But yeah. I wish Togashi wrote Dragon Ball instead of Toriyama.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Togashi writing dragon ball...

DEEP SHUDDER

 

[Amexim]

Without hiatuses.

What's with this HxH bias? That verse is fire chief.

 

[The_Calaca]

HxH is godly tier shonen at least in power function.

It's like Jojo's Bizarre Adventure's Stands and Hamon strategies but with more specific traits.

Also to continue with the topic. In the hispanic community there's a YouTube channel where it was stated that Beerus could Hakai bad Saga from Geminis Saga's body out of existence by the statement that there's nothing Beerus can't destroy.

Conceptual Manipulation or Abstractal Existence Interaction? That'd be cool for GoDs.

And yes, the guy who said that it's... let's just say stupid.

 

[Akreious]

inb4 DBH has multiple statements that Hakai is Conceptual Destruction

 

[The_Calaca]

BTW what inb4 mean?

About that... cool.

I always thought it would be easily using Hakai against something abstract or a concept just like power itself. Imagine Toppo using Hakai to null Frieza's Golden form. Just godly things would be able to ignore it allowing Vegeta to ignore it just like in canon but... logically explained.

 

[Akreious]

BTW what inb4 mean?
About that... cool.

I always thought it would be easily using Hakai against something abstract or a concept just like power itself. Imagine Toppo using Hakai to null Frieza's Golden form. Just godly things would be able to ignore it allowing Vegeta to ignore it just like in canon but... logically explained.

inb4 = In Before

It essentially means exactly what it sounds like; "In Before X Event". Likely in anticipation of something happening.

Like inb4 lock, which would mean "In before the lock of the lock of this thread".