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Continuing the tradition. Geralt speed downgrade

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The feats are from books so I don't know if you will believe them. And it will take time to find it because of my current responsibilities irl.
 
Okay, I got the Vilgefortz feat. It wasn't really time consuming, just downloaded the PDF and searched for it.

90b9a040ceec7fda5e9e180976af57a0.png
 
SpookyShadow said:
Okay, I got the Vilgefortz feat. It wasn't really time consuming, just downloaded the PDF and searched for it.

90b9a040ceec7fda5e9e180976af57a0.png
Click to expand...
If this isn't a MHS+ then i don't know what is, considering it's literally stated that magic burrows directly from earth elements and this wouldn't create a weaker slower lighting bolt as everyone in this thread is saying but it would create a lighting bolt that as said might turn humans into ash

Plus if the djinn feat isn't accepted then i have huge problem with this feat
 
SpookyShadow said:
Okay, I got the Vilgefortz feat. It wasn't really time consuming, just downloaded the PDF and searched for it.

90b9a040ceec7fda5e9e180976af57a0.png
Click to expand...
This runs a bit into the same situation as the Geralt blocking lightning. We don't really know if he moved to moved in time, considering every other "lightning deflecting" feat has been them already being in a position rather than them reacting.
 
Not it doesn't. There isn't anything specified, just him deflecting lightning bolt. And "every other feat" that you speak of was in the games.

By this logic we could downgrade any unspecified manga feat with lightning because they could be "already in this position". But anyway, Vilg deflected her lightning, not really just blocked it, and he did it effortlessly.
 
Also, you can edit the OP already, it's confusing people. I already deleted all non MHS feats long ago.

Once Dargoo is there, he will also argue about Djinn feat being alright, from what I see on our Discord.
 
Actually, wait a second what the actual **** is the original Post

this is the worst description and it's actually downright strawmaning here as it doesn't actually link the legitimate MHS+ feats but the random things Earl got as an "example" of MHS+

edit: Four out of Eight statements here made by Earl are invalid due to them not having any correlation to what we claim is considered MHS+
 
I guess he didn't look at the profile and just copy pasted it. But now people are agreeing without further look because of that.
 
SpookyShadow said:
Also, you can edit the OP already, it's confusing people. I already deleted all non MHS feats long ago.

Once Dargoo is there, he will also argue about Djinn feat being alright, from what I see on our Discord.
Click to expand...
You deleted all the non MHS feats long ago? Am i not reading the profile correctly then?
(Stated to attack with the speed and force of a lightning bolt. Regularly fights against and consistently keeps up with enemies that can use natural lightning to attack, like Azar Javed, who used cloud-to-ground lightning to dodge an attack from Geralt, and the Djinn, an Air Elemental which can manipulate entire storms with ease and also manipulate and generate natural lightning, and Geralt can even move away from its lightning attacks and parry them with his sword at close range, though at the cost of getting greatly staggered. Though outclassed, he could somewhat keep up with Vilgefortz, who could easily deflect Yennefer's lightning attacks several times during their fight)

Imma see what Dargoo has to say then.

AngeronTheSkyHighAnger said:
this is the worst description and it's actually downright strawmaning here as it doesn't actually link the legitimate MHS+ feats but the random things Earl got as an "example" of MHS+
edit: Four out of Eight statements here made by Earl are invalid due to them not having any correlation to what we claim is considered MHS+
Click to expand...
Those things i mentioned were in the profile as justifications for MHS+. It's not my mistake for mentioning them, it is whoever put them there's mistake. You don't put dodging through a sound wave, in a justification for MHS+, it is straight up wrong, so they need to be removed either way.

And those four out of eight statements here are actually valid cus they're in the profile justification for that MHS+ rating. So fix your profiles before coming here arguing why points are in the OP.

As for the last point which is this:
Though outclassed, he could somewhat keep up with Vilgefortz, who could easily deflect Yennefer's lightning attacks several times during their fight

We're discussing it right now, and this was not in the profile when i made these points (back in march). And i already said this is a repeat of that since it was closed, and considering supposedly CRTs shouldn't have been allowed i didn't really notice that last point, but either way we're discussing it right now and imma wait for some more opinions on that.

Edit: Currently i am not sold on that because first of all we do not know the exact circumstances, and second the fact that someone used cloud to ground lightning to dodge Geralt is quite an anti-feat.
 
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The other four can be easily debunked too

The first would be an hyperbole and flowery language if it wasn't for the other feats supporting this claim meaning it has really high chance of being a legit

the second is easy, Mages and Sorceresses burrow magic directly from the Elements of the Earth meaning they can create from a simple spark to a Lighting Bolts that turn humans into ash

Third, Djinns are literal clouds of energy that are so powerful that mages pale in comparison to them and thus should be even more capable of creating lighting bolts

About the Fourth one is false, Lighting was already fired before Geralt even moved if you watch the video frame by frame
 
Yeah you are not reading the profile correctly if you think the feats you gave in OP are still there, like the statements and arrow swatting things. Nearly everything lightning related is there.

"So fix your profiles before coming here arguing why points are in the OP."

Could have made the thread with more precision and research than just copy pasting it. And the profiles are locked so I did what I could.
 
Ok yeah fair point, as i said, since CRTs weren't supposed to be allowed and profiles were supposed to be locked i assumed nothing had changed, but yeah fair point, derp on my side.
 
I don't understand how blocking Lightning isn't legit because of that, if he's ready to block or not, the calc is (should be) about how fast he moves while blocking
 
If he goes to block position after Lightning was fired, then it's fine to calc, it will be way less than MHS since Geralt has the distance between him and the Lightning to help him, but I believe it will be higher than Supersonic

If he just goes to block position, then Lightning is fired and he doesn't need to move in order to block it, then yeah, I guess it isn't a feat

Going into blocking position only when "Lightning is close to him" only helps Geralt here since he would need to be faster to do it since the distance between him and Lightning is way less
 
Let's wait for Dargoo, I think he agrees with KLOL's conclusion (that Geralt was actually timing lightning after it was fired IIRC, we discussed it off site), then we will continue.
 
SpookyShadow said:
Let's wait for Dargoo, I think he agrees with KLOL's conclusion (that Geralt was actually timing lightning after it was fired IIRC, we discussed it off site), then we will continue.
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Okay, apologies on holding this up. Back from vacation.

If we assume that the bolt the Djin fired is natural lightning, and we're purely going off of the game feat interpretation, it's fine as a blocking feat, although there's a fuckton of asterisks to this when we get into calcing it.

KLOL provided me with scans that show what happens when Geralt doesn't parry the bolt:


​



And when he does parry it:


​



Basically, two things we can gather from this:
  • Geralt does parry it, according to the game.
  • The way Geralt parries shit in the games is ******* weird.
From what I understand, the way the game has you parry things, you actually don't start moving to hit it until after the projectile hits you - this is pretty smart game design since projectiles can come from anywhere and it's useless animation if Geralt start moving to parry an arrow mid-flight but the player was already making him move out of its tradgectory.

What I can conclude from this, is that there isn't really a way we can calc the feat based on gameplay. It would be better to have an out-of-game feat to judge Geralt's speed if we're talking parrying/projectile blocking.

This doesn't go into the assumption that the Djin lightning is as fast as natural lightning, whether or not this is consistent with out-of-game examples, et cetera.
 
>This doesn't go into the assumption that the Djin lightning is as fast as natural lightning, whether or not this is consistent with out-of-game examples, et cetera

We already gave proof that it is as fast as natural lightning so no need to worry about it.

Also consistency... I found out that Sapkowski used the word "lightning fast" in all books like hundred times after research

The Vilgefortz feat seems fine to back it up, especially since they are top tiers of the verse
 
I agree that the previous speed justification contained a lot of unnecessary fluff and mentions speed feats inferior to MHS+, and that there should be better justification. But that doesn't mean the verse is devoid of MHS+ speed feats.

Lightning bolts from the Djinn and Mages can be consistently parried (even if the parry animation is weird)

It is also reacted to in Of Flesh and Flames:

RCO010_1551229908.jpg


The Gwent trailer has Eredin reacting to Yennefer's lightning bolt



You can argue that it is an 'aim-block', but Eredin only finished stabbing his sword into the ground after the lightning was fired.

The Witcher Role-Playing tabletop game, which is canon to the game, states that cloud-to-ground lightning spells are dodgeable:

Alzur’s Thunder
  • STA Cost: 15
  • Effect: Alzur’s Thunder allows you to shoot a powerful lightning bolt at a target which does 8d6 damage and has a 75% chance of setting the target on fire. Alzur’s Thunder can travel in a straight line through targets. For every target it passes through the damage to the next target decreases by 1d6.
  • Range: 25m
  • Duration: Immediate
  • Defense: Dodge or Magical Shield

Lightning Storm
  • STA Cost: 25
  • Effect: Lightning Storm allows you to create a lightning storm. Lightning strikes randomly around the area. Anyone (except you) in the area has a 35% chance of being struck by lightning. If they miss this roll, they must make a Dodge/ Escape check or take 8d6 damage to the torso and have a 75% chance to be ignited.
  • Duration: Active (6 STA)
  • Defense: Dodge or Magical Shield

As for the books, Vilgefortz created a passive barrier to block Yennefer's barrage of lightning bolts, so this doesn't qualify as a MHS+ feat:

Yennefer, chanting spells, sent flash after flash of lightning towards Vilgefortz. None of them hit the target, all harmlessly bouncing off the magical sphere protecting the sorcerer. Vilgefortz stretched out his arms and suddenly spread them Yennefer cried out in pain and soared up into the air, levitating. Vilgefortz twisted his hands, exactly as though he were wringing out a wet rag. The sorceress howled piercingly. And began to spin.

However, Lady of the Lake says that Geralt managed to dodge Vilgefortz's lightning bolt 'just in time', which is supporting evidence for MHS+.
 
Vilgefortz deflected the first lightning bolt from what I read, only later he casted a shield (that's why the author bothered with words like "effortlessly" and "with sheer contempt"). Or he just casted a shield, reacting to the bolt, which is still in time
 
I finally fixed the issue with this new forum, dark mode was the problem. I will say something later
 
ShadowWhoWalks said:
Lightning bolts from the Djinn and Mages can be consistently parried (even if the parry animation is weird)
Click to expand...

I'd personally leave this one out - apparently KLOL told me that this weird animation is only the case for lightning (arrows can have you moving before it hits you), so it might be an aspect of gameplay that we can never really quantify or even discuss without running into issues. If it's consistent outside of that feat it shouldn't be too necessary to keep it, too.

As for the wizard lightning, I think it's actually more important too, on Geralt's page, demonstrate why the bolts they fire are = the speed of a cloud-to-ground bolt's stepped leader. Electricity can have a wide variety of speeds and far more often than not wizards in fiction call generic electricity blasts "lightning", so we require that extra proof is given on that front.

On the page itself though it's just the Djinn, Yenni, and Vilgefortz feats, plus that one narration just stating he moved as fast as a bolt of lightning. The first one has the issues mentioned above, the second one requires proof that Yenni's ground-to-enemy bolts are = in speed to her cloud-to-ground bolts, the third actually wasn't conclusively discussed (Kep mentioned that since the first use of the feat is a massive anti-feat for Geralt, we should prove that in Geralt's second confrontation he specifically trumped or matched that spell in speed instead of just ganking Vilgefortz before he used it or Vil suffering from fictional incompetency syndrome and just not using it again). The fourth is the only completely straightforward one although it can run into issues if we don't assume the narration meant the stepped leader of lightning.
 
>the second one requires proof that Yenni's ground-to-enemy bolts are = in speed to her cloud-to-ground bolts

I will add proof once the profiles are unlocked (the statement from Blood of Elves). Tbh it could even be cloud-to-ground, because the castle was devastated in that place, but we don't know. Still should be the same thing considering how Sapkowski described the magic in Witcher coming from natural sources, and he always refers to it in specific ways. So well, it should be pretty similar, especially since Yen knows Alzur's Thunder.

>we should prove that in Geralt's second confrontation he specifically trumped or matched that spell in speed instead of just ganking Vilgefortz before he used it

No idea how it's possible, it's a book, and I think the statements are clear enough. He matched Vilgefortz in a very tough duel, Vilgefortz could deflect the lightning of Yen.
 
SpookyShadow said:
I will add proof once the profiles are unlocked (the statement from Blood of Elves).
Click to expand...

If you have access to the evidence, could you post it here? It seems to be very relevant to the thread since a lot of the consistency mentioned here depends entirely on this point.

(EDIT): An embed was posted earlier linking to the thread with that info, I'll get on that in a bit.

SpookyShadow said:
No idea how it's possible, it's a book, and I think the statements are clear enough. He matched Vilgefortz in a very tough duel
Click to expand...
If it happened off-screen then there's no real way to tell how Geralt worked around that trick Vil did.

If the first time Vil used it was phrased in a way that made Geralt significantly slower than the lightning, then we would kind of want a direct contradiction to say that it's inconsistent with other feats - rather than say "Geralt probably moved fast enough to counter the technique despite him not being able to do this the first time because he could beat Vil in an nondescriptive fight".

Not that this matters if we can prove that wizard lightning = stepped leader of natural lightning and Vil just deflects that, but if we can't prove that then the Vil feat in complete isolation isn't very solid.
 
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Not really, Shadow wrote a little note under his link and it's quite interesting.

Also won't rn respond to Dargoo's comment as we talk off site right now about it
 
I believe this is the Blood of Elves quote? Taken from here.

"Remember,” she repeated, “magic is Chaos, Art and Science. It is a curse, a blessing and progress. It all depends on who uses magic, how they use it, and to what purpose. And magic is everywhere. All around us. Easily accessible. It is enough to stretch out one’s hand. See? I’m stretching out my hand.”

The cromlech trembled perceptibly. Ciri heard a dull, distant noise and a rumble coming from within the earth. The heather undulated, flattened by the gale which suddenly gusted across the hill. The sky abruptly turned dark, covered with clouds scudding across it at incredible speed. The girl felt drops of rain on her face. She narrowed her eyes against the flash of lightning which suddenly flared across the horizon. She automatically huddled up to the enchantress, against her black hair smelling of lilac and gooseberries.

“The earth which we tread. The fire which does not go out within it. The water from which all life is born and without which life is not possible. The air we breathe. It is enough to stretch out one’s hand to master them, to subjugate them. Magic is everywhere. It is in air, in water, in earth and in fire."



Per the Wiki's Lightning Feats calculation instructions, to prove that generic electricity blasts are as fast as a cloud-to-ground lightning bolt, we need to show that they display some properties of real-life electricity, and that they generate power comparable to a lightning bolt with their attacks (low-end 8-C). This is the same reason we consider Naruto's Raiton, Star Wars' Force Lightning, and Avatar's Lightning Bending to move at cloud-to-ground lightning speed.

In a Witcher 1 quests Geralts waits for a storm or pays a druid to conjure a storm, then a lightning rod is attached to a Golem for a lightning strike to wake it, and the objectives is to lure the golem into an area between pylons that attract cloud-to-ground lightning.


The Monsterbook entry states:
Frustrating jobs happen in every profession. Golem contracts are just such a job for witchers, as they involve slashing through solid rock animated by magic. Luckily, what is brought to life by a lightning bolt can very well be destroyed by one. This is something we all truly wish the golem, from the very bottom of our hearts.

It is stated in lore that electricity spells are effective against Golems, so both natural lightning bolts and electricity spells share properties.

From the Witcher RPG tabletop game:
If you have to fight a golem, stock up on dimeritium bombs. While they won’t ‘shut off ’ a golem, they will make it sluggish. Elementa oil is also good, as are spells that incorporate electricity. When struck by enough electricity a golem will freeze up as its magical bonds try to reassert themselves.
...
Electricity Vulnerability
Golems are vulnerable to electricity, which may disrupt them. If they take more than 10 points of damage, they must roll a Stun save under 7.

An electricity spell in the Witcher RPG tabletop game shows that metals are highly conductive to electricity spells.

Static Storm
  • STA Cost: 5
  • Effect: Static Storm allows you to infuse a 5m radius centred around you with electricity. Anyone within this area (excluding you) who is wearing metal armor or carrying metal weapons takes 2 points of damage per round.
  • Range: 5m
  • Radius Duration: 2d6 Rounds
  • Defense: None

So... is there any doubts about the energy generated by mages to fulfil the other lightning feats requirement?

Hellbeast said:
Also Eredin was rejected already
Click to expand...
Then it should be easy for you to bring up arguments for us to see.
 
  • Golems are stated to be vulnerable to natural cloud-to-ground lightning
  • Golems are also stated to be vulnerable to electricity generated from spells
  • Metals are stated to be conductive to magical electricity
So it is fair to compare magical electricity to real-world electricity. Per calculation instructions, it is possible to assume that an electric attack that shares some properties with real-world electricity is at the speed of cloud-to-ground lightning bolt if it done with sufficient AP.
 
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