Consideration For A New Tier 11

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

@Antvasima

I whole heartidly agree. That is a fine name

That system is set up very well, too. Good thinking, Arbitrary.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Minor seems like a good name to me too.

Although I'm leaning more towards something like "Irrelevant" or "Insignificant".

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Okay i'm back now. So i see the recent change of this, and it seems that this is more of merging the whole tiers into one of the existing ones here, yeah? No?

 

[Aldrecht]

S╠Âu╠Âb╠Â-╠Âs╠Âe╠Ân╠Ât╠Âi╠Âe╠Ân╠Ât╠Â?╠ Sub-aware?

Just realized sentient means feeling. Not awareness as an individual. Disregard. Sub-rational?

 

[ThePerpetual]

What Antvasima and ArbitraryNumbers have most recently proposed works just fine for me.

 

[Crzer07]

Maybe I'll just expand on that and add a little in for transitioning between each levels:

High 11-A = somewhere between high subhumans to base humans (certain small animals and plants)

11-A = Small Animal (ex. squirrels, frogs, mice, small autonomous toys like Furbies can also count)

Low 11-A = Bugs (ex. ants, flies, small spiders)

High 11-B = Multi-Cellular (ex. bacteria)

11-B = Cellular

Low 11-B = Macromolecular (ex. DNA, genes, viruses etc)

High 11-C = Molecular

11-C = Atomic

Low 11-C = Subatomic (i.e. composite particles)

High 11-D = elementary particles (ex. quarks, gluons, neutrinos)

11-D = Planck/Quantum (ex. strings, branes, D-branes)

Low 11-D = infinitesimally below the planck length/space-time foam (analogous to the macroscopic High 3-A)

 

[OishiLover75]

But what about 10-C.

 

[Alakabamm]

I think Arbitrary Numbers/Crzer07 suggested a reasonable fix to the system.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Tier D? Not so sure about that.

 

[ThePerpetual]

Not sure about having "-D" listings, to be honest, it just sort of feels clunky given none of the other tiers have it...

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we may not have a choice, given the range of scale involved.

If Alakabamm, who is both an administrator and calculation group member, thinks that this is the best solution, it may very well be.

However, if this is going to be applied, we will need upper and lower borders for all of the categories.

 

[Alakabamm]

Well, we don't necessarily need the D category if everyone is fine with not having a lower limit for these categories.

 

[Antvasima]

True enough.

 

[Antvasima]

The question would be where exactly that we should draw the line between 10-C and High 11-A? 10-C was previously composed of anything from out-of-shape humans, to children, invalids, and small animals. Going by the suggestion, they currently blend together.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

I think we should draw the line at children or out-of-shape humans, as 11-A would likely refer to anything below humans in general.

 

[Antvasima]

@ArbitraryNumbers Okay then.

@All So, is anybody willing to help performing border calculations for all of the categories suggested by Crzer07?

 

[Crzer07]

Children are still pretty agile though, if it's the 5-12 age group. I'd rank them at Low 10-B. I think the average person is 'out-of-shape' if that means they are couch potato and don't excercise, even then it's a Low 10-B. The weakest people of course are of age 0-4 and centenarians (pre-developed and extreme senescent), physically impaired and terminally ill.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Agility doesn't matter much in term of AP. A children punches with lower energy than even an "out-of-shape" person. AP levels aren't meant to take into acount stamina, speed or otherwise.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that it is simpler to rate young children as 10-C in terms of comparative strength level.

We need to draw the borders somewhere, and do not have a Low 10-B category.

I would prefer if we have to adjust as few current profiles as possible.

 

[LordXcano]

Well, we may not have a choice, given the range of scale involved.
If Alakabamm, who is both an administrator and calculation group member, thinks that this is the best solution, it may very well be.

However, if this is going to be applied, we will need upper and lower borders for all of the categories.

Blue already did the Small Animal AP, so we have the borders for Cell, Insect, and Small Animal done. I'm not really sure if atoms alone should or could have listed AP as they don't move on their own. I'm not too sure about 11-A though, as the cat AP is 500 Joules and that would definitely overlap with Regular Human range (being stronger than an average punch).

 

[Alakabamm]

Blue already did the Small Animal AP, so we have the borders for Cell, Insect, and Small Animal done. I'm not really sure if atoms alone should or could have listed AP as they don't move on their own. I'm not too sure about 11-A though, as the cat AP is 500 Joules and that would definitely overlap with Regular Human range (being stronger than an average punch).

Use the weight of the smallest human baby + crawl speed I guess.

 

[Thebluedash]

That would imply people have baby crawling speed listed.


https://www.quora.com/At-what-speed-does-the-average-baby-crawl

I did found this. However, the person who answered was just guesstimating.

 

[KamiYasha]

It's probably less than 1 m/s.

 

[Antvasima]

Maybe we could include small animals, such as cats, as well as young children, in category 10-C, and keep very small animals, such as frogs, in category 11-A?

Anyway, again, given that I am very busy keeping track of everything in this wiki, I would very much appreciate help to calculate the remaining appropriate border levels for each of the above-mentioned tiers, and then listing them in a post here.

Perhaps somebody could message the calculation group members who have not responded yet, that I would appreciate their help, and consider this thread important?

 

[AidenBrooks999]

Second thing about this. I don't mind having these tiers, but what's the point? I can't see anyone debating "Red Ant vs Black ants" or "Dog cells vs Human cells". It's just sort of pointless in my opinion.

Sure about that ewe?


About the tiering, I'm 50/50 on this


I don't mind that the table is more complete

But these tiers seems kind of unnecesary

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. I am uncertain. On the one hand, it would be nice for the sake of completeness. On the other, there are obviously not many character profiles that will use them.

 

[DontTalk]

Hmmm... this seems like a lot of work for a not really necessary tier. I mean the current tier 11 was also not really necessary, but it was at least easy...

Well, if we want to do this I would want to hold it compact. That for one thing means that I would rather not have low/highs and I would certainly want to avoid changing pattern to introduce a -D category to a tier.

I think small animal, insect and microbe sounds fine; anything below that can in my opinion just fall into microbe tier, with that it is precise enough IMO. (dont even know characters on atom level or something...)


For the practical part: I noticed that lord Xcano did calcs for insect and microbe level. If there are any other calcs necessary I would need to know what the border is supposed to be (what I should calc).

I did, to be honest, not read through the whole thread so it was probably already mentioned what exactly is needed...

 

[RavenSupreme]

one thing we all have to keep in mind is,

we are not only doing this and other changes so we please vsdebating hearts. we are a trusted and widely known source of character tiering and abilities of many fictional verses.

with the addition of real life tiers outside the ambigous "athlete level" and similar, we are suddenly attempting to apply our fictional logic and calc standards to events and beings where these things actually have no place.

a small bird does not "stomp" a rabbit because it has a higher energy output. there is no tier difference. there is no tier at all. it is a mere biologic phenomen without the need to be quantified.

i think we as a whole should not limit ourselfes with the questionable application of fictional rules to the everyday world we live in.

on top, we have to keep in mind that this also can trigger a lot of controversial discussions since in comparison to fictional verses the behaviour, rules, way of living of real life species can be determined to the most scientific degree, giving anyone who try-hard wants to change something, technically could - and since this is no longer a fictional thing where we go by the most reasonable, we suddenly have differing results for a species / animal resulting in controversial tier placing.

next: lets be real guys do we want to bother ourselves with a tier which likely causes nothing but bad blood when people argue whether the dog they support can dish out a higher energy level than the domesticated cat of his debating partner? i severly doubt it.

our entire tiering system is not made for real life beings.

i appreciate the effort, but i want us to please rethink this once more

oh, not to mention the incredible hard work we have to put in this, despite we have actual more "important" things to take care off, so our visitors who come to get to know about their fictional verse are accurately informed

 

[Antvasima]

@RavenSupreme Hmm. Maybe this was a bad idea then. I am a completist by nature, but in this case it might be better to let things remain as they are.

What do the rest of the staff think?

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Like i said, Antvasima. As bereaucrat of the other wiki, i have no qualms of weather y'all want this on THIS wiki here or not.

Considering the special case here, i'd like to hear what the staff say on this manner....

 

[Alakabamm]

Well, yea, going below human level is typically unseen in battle based fiction. This upgrade may not find real use after all. I wouldn't mind doing it, but if we do, I think we should take a nuanced look at energy levels outside of KE personally (for example, the amount of chemical energy a cell, an amoeba, a rat, etc generates.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay then.

 

[LoudCloud]

Sounds interesting but I have the feeling very few people will do vs debates with tier 11 characters.

 

[Ryukama]

@LoudCloud We don't allow profiles based upon people making matches with them, otherwise we'd take down Tier 0, along with most of the profiles here since most matches are only made with more popular franchises and their main characters.

 

[LoudCloud]

@LoudCloud We don't allow profiles based upon people making matches with them, otherwise we'd take down Tier 0, along with most of the profiles here since most matches are only made with more popular franchises and their main characters.

I've heard plenty of people saying how making a certain profile of a character/series wasn't worth it since they were weak/unextraordinary.

 

[Ryukama]

@LoudCloud People not wanting to make profiles for weak/unextraordinary people doesn't mean that this site determines making profiles for characters based upon VS matches. Otherwise like I said Tier 0 and the majority of these pages would get taken down.

Although I do agree with you and others that such a considerable revision and amount of hard work may not be worth it.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it may be best to wait for a few more replies, but if more people agree with RavenSupreme, it may be best to close this thread.

 

[Ryukama]

@Ant Alright. I am indifferent if this gets implemented but do question whether it's really worth it. Let's wait for more input like you suggested though.

 

[LordXcano]

I think Microbes should be a tier because I can see viruses being used but I don't think AP should necessarily apply to it just like we have with 2 and 1D. Small Animal and Sub-Human aren't needed though due to what Raven said.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

Hmmm... this seems like a lot of work for a not really necessary tier. I mean the current tier 11 was also not really necessary, but it was at least easy...

He makes a good point. A point on what we're willing to do.

Guys, our personal efforts to this wiki, which mind you, will outlast our time here (most of us anyway), and for a very long time, even long before I was a member here, I have looked here for information and statitics of varioius characters. I trust this wiki. Thousands upon thousands do, too.

Really, reffering to Revan's comment, it is less about seeing who's dad is better than the other guy's. Rather, and more importantly, as stated by many members and staff of this wiki before, VS Battles is about indexing, accurately and properly putting to record all of the data feasible for a character/weapon/vehicle. Really, we are the greatest fit for this. We have every resource and ourselves for support.

I think the only reason we aren't going to put this into action, is because of our own sloth or disinteres, which is a shame to those who might look to us, or members of the future. And I'm not trying to guilt trip or drive us into something we don't need. I will help or if needed do all of the work myself and get it double checked every time. I want this implemented for good reason.

That reason is (aside from the fact it was alread on FC/OC Battles Wiki, and on the "To-Do List") because we here on this wiki have many potential profiles, we simply are not looking at or thinking of inserting. At the very least if we are going to make a 4-sub-tier category for anything below human, we can use realistic benchmarks and existing data.

I propose for the subatomic tier, we use a hydrogen atom as a base. Red human blood cell for the molecular sub-tier. For insects, ants seem to be a median and fair creature, as well as the most abundant by far on Earth. As for aniamls below humans in terms of speed and strength, I leave that up to you. Cause I know rabbits are pretty predictable coming from me. Also Thebluedash found a rabbit at top speed going into a person is Athletic Human level. ┬»\_(Òâä)_/┬»