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Conan vs Shion Remake (better neutral)

Jamesthetaker said:
Those guys in first video were member of Black Organization which are very good marksman as well and they were trained to eliminate target with high precise yet Conan manage to outran them abeit a close one, you don't expect someone to escaped storm of bullet with little injury. The guy in second video were snipping from hundred meters away but Conan manage to avoid it, again this isn't something easy to pull off. Yeah most of them isn't aware of his balls but some of them are completely bent on killing him and he win in the end. There is many times where the murderer are very close to commit their act or in seemingly impossible situations like mid-air before Conan balls hit them. All of this to proven Conan quick reaction and he know to act when the situation call for.

Conan glasses have radar, telescopic functions and night vision so he won't be waiting for her. It benefit him as much as Shion is because he kick his balls as far as a bullet is. Actually, since Conan know about her enhanced senses and guns he'll know not to make direct confrontation. The best way is running around and luring her to a spot which he could kick his soccer balls. His skateboard are a part of standard equipment so that will help. Shion have superior range but so is Conan balls, as you seen in the video they travel pretty far. With SBA play in, the location would give Conan some time to close the distance between each other or find a spot which allow him to knock her without being too close.

Like i said, i'm no expert on psychology so i'd figure that it would give Conan something like taking the advantage of her mentally then striking in a vulnerable moment. Although, when think again i believe he would be better off playing chasing game then take her out in a planned spot.
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1. I've already addressed those points in my earlier post. Those bullets simply missed, if anything if the Black Organisation is that skilled, it's PIS that they couldn't hit Conan, although I would argue that it was more because they were far away. Conan avoided the sniper shot as again, he was already moving before it hit him.

2. Conan's glasses don't actually make him on par with Shion. While they both have enhanced senses, Shion can capitalise on hers more because of her superior range. This is something that I want to reiterate. On his profile, Conan's super-enhanced kicking balls have a range of only tens of metres. This is not good, as it would actually prevent Conan from running away. He can't run away because well, if he's not using his skateboard, he would be pounced by Shion who has far greater running speed, but that aside, why would Conan run away? That would only exemplify the range advantage of Shion, which is a point that I don't think you have adequately refuted, especially considering the fact that the two are starting near each other. Shion isn't stupid, she won't run at Conan while he's skateboarding away, she'll just unleash a barrage of fire. This takes place in a school, so Conan won't actually have much room to dodge. A bullet is going to hit him and at the very least incapacitate him. Even with SBA, this only further reinforces Shion's advantage over Conan. Conan has to come to Shion, it's not the other way around, and as I have said before, Shion's enhanced senses will be able to locate Conan, and from there she can utilise her long-ranged weaponry. Shion knows all of Conan's arsenal, so she isn't going to come to him, where Conan can use his relatively short-range weapons.

3. As I have said before, Conan will be forced to play the chasing game with Shion, and that just won't work out well for him. I don't understand how Conan will take the mental advantage against Shion. How is he going to do that? Again, this fight starts off at long-range. He wouldn't be able to get inside Shion's head before getting shot down.
 
I'll wait for a response. I've already explained my argument and I believe I refuted the core of James' points.
 
The problem is james seems to be taking too long to respond recently, so i afraid this match will end once grace is over and James still doesn't responding
 
James’ argument depends on 2 main things:

1. Conan aim-dodging bullets by hiding undercover

2. Conan getts into Shion’s head.

I don’t believe that these actually hold up.

1. While it is true that Conan may be able to aim-dodge bullets from far away, he will not be able to lure Shion to him. Given that they both have knowledge of each other, Shion will know that none of Conan’s gear can actually reach her. She has a great range advantage, and she will surely wait for Conan to come to her, which he must do in order to engage in a fight with her as even his power-enhanced kicks have relatively short-range (at least tens of metres), compared to Shion’s guns such as her AK-47 (350 metres) and her Dragunov Sniper (800 metres). Please remember that they start off 4km away from each other and that Conan will not be able to sneak up on Shion due to her enhanced senses.
Hiding undercover will not work either. As I have demonstrated before, an AK-47 will likely shoot through whatever cover you may find in a school. This ties back to my earlier point of Shion’s enhanced senses, which can sense the location of Conan, allowing Shion to snipe at Conan when he is not even aware of where the sniper is. Conan’s goggles will not alert him of a foe hundreds of metres away. Its range stops at around 20 metres. Shion’s enhanced senses downscale slightly from Keiichi who could hear all the sounds of a forest and has 360-degree spatial awareness.

One other thing to note is that James has shown me videos of anime feats. I assume that these feats are valid and have taken them into account when constructing my arguments, but there is a possibility that these feats don’t count, as according to this thread answered by someone knowledgeable on the verse, anime scenes cannot be used to upgrade.

2. Conan getting into Shion’s head would only be a possibility if he could find a way to communicate with Shion from far away. The range is once again Conan’s biggest enemy, and he doesn’t have good enough answers to it. Even then, if Conan manages to somehow get inside Shion’s head, it would only make her angrier and would bloodlust her, obviously putting Conan at a disadvantage as now he is facing an opponent that will unload on him the absolute second she sees him if she wouldn’t want to do that before.
 
Going by SBA, the starting range for them would be 350 or 800 meters. You could argue that Shion have better range than Conan but considering the location we're using, it isn't that hard for Conan to close the distance. The range for power-enhanced kick should be higher as i've shown many times, they can reach as far as a bullet is. The actual range for modification glasses is 20 km radius and Conan know how dangerous Shion is so he won't sitting in one place.

Conan with his skateboard can maneuvering through wall and air which are much difficult than sniping someone from 400 meters away and more so if she try to unload entire magazine at him, again this isn't the first time the enemy try to did it against him. As shown before, he used it to escaped a skilled sniper who can snip from several buildings away. Once again, Conan have the mobility advantage in this case the kid himself have great aim too so one or two attempts are guaranteed to be successed.

As for the suspicion of the feats i've posted, they are pretty canon to the storyline. The verse pages definitely need some overhaul later but it won't affected this matches regardless.
 
Ok, so the starting distance is 800 metres. Even then the location that we are using, a school is actually going to help Shion. I have said this before and you have brought it up yourself, that a school has less space than an open setting. This will benefit Shion as Conan’s manoeuvring ability will be greatly limited by the environment. You're arguing against yourself here.

The modification glasses should be fixed on Conan’s profile. Though as EliminatorVenom has said this won’t actually mean much, except that they both can’t hide from each other. Which suits Shion just fine but will work against Conan as I have explained already.
The feats which you have posted are all from the anime. Please provide manga scans.

Although again, it likely wouldn’t matter as a school environment would limit Conan’s mobility. This will enable Shion to, if not snipe him, shoot Conan down with her AK-47 before Conan can do something about it.

We both agree Conan has to come to Shion, not the other way around. Conan’s win condition relies on him somehow, dodging a rapid-fire blast of bullets while simultaneously heading towards his target in an environment that limits his mobility.

Shion’s win condition relies on her just shooting Conan once, in which even the anime feat you posted he gets grazed. Imagine what Shion would do to him. All it takes is a single bullet.

The likelihood of Shion getting her wincon is far more likely than Conan achieving his. My main points still stand:
• Shion is armed with lethal weapons such as an AK-47 and Dragunov Sniper rifle, which can both one-shot him and has automatic fire. Its effective firing range is several hundred metres compared to several metres for all of Conan's equipment.

• Shion's enhanced senses can give her the location of Conan in the school. He cannot hide. This is, of course, assuming he will be able to hide in the first place as EliminatorVenom pointed out. Furthermore, Conan cannot find a hiding place that can protect him from Shion’s guns.

• Conan’s mobility with his skateboard is limited due to the school environment.
 
School have nooks and crannies which Conan can maneuvering place to place or up and down constantly, the starting distance will give him some time to scan through the place and when he know that the enemy have guns he won't stayed in one place for long or go hiding. Shion is not fast enough to chase him down or predict his movement.

He don't have to face Shion directly because he know she have guns and enhanced senses. If anything, he can moving through floors to avoid being in her line of sight. Also his balls can change direction and bend in different way which Conan could use it whilst moving in air or in lower floor, unlike guns that travel in straight line. Conan have high pain tolerance so he can take one or two bullets without being stopped.

The anime are canon to manga and pretty much everything else, most of the feats come from movies but they don't contradict main source. In fact, Shion's profile are not provided with evidence while I have give tons of them for Conan.
 
Jamesthetaker said:
School have nooks and crannies which Conan can maneuvering place to place or up and down constantly, the starting distance will give him some time to scan through the place and when he know that the enemy have guns he won't stayed in one place for long or go hiding. Shion is not fast enough to chase him down or predict his movement.

He don't have to face Shion directly because he know she have guns and enhanced senses. If anything, he can moving through floors to avoid being in her line of sight. Also his balls can change direction and bend in different way which Conan could use it whilst moving in air or in lower floor, unlike guns that travel in straight line. Conan have high pain tolerance so he can take one or two bullets without being stopped.

The anime are canon to manga and pretty much everything else, most of the feats come from movies but they don't contradict main source. In fact, Shion's profile are not provided with evidence while I have give tons of them for Conan.
Click to expand...
1. The school simply doesn’t have enough room for Conan to evade the bullets for long. I agree that Conan will not hide, as I have pointed out numerous times, Conan cannot afford to hide. Once more, Shion doesn’t need to chase Conan down, Conan is the one who needs to get in range. Conan’s movement will be easier to predict given the fact there are only so many things he can do in an inside place like a school. This isn’t an open field.

2. Assuming there are now levels to this school, that still doesn’t help Conan. Shion can still figure out Conan’s location and just shoot upwards or downwards if she needs to. I’ve already demonstrated that an AK can do that. High pain tolerance isn’t going to stop you from getting injured, incapacitated, or dying from a bullet to a vital area. That is all that it takes. It doesn’t matter if Conan doesn’t feel any pain from a bullet to the leg, he still won’t be able to move it.

3. Then take this up with those knowledgeable on the verse and ask them why anime feats can’t be used. If you’re going to provide evidence, give manga scans. Furthermore, according to the rules of the wiki, we go by what is shown in the profiles. Make a CRT for Conan if you want to buff him.

As you can see, Conan is going to need to come to Shion. His weapons just don’t have the necessary range to attack Shion from where she can attack him. When Conan tries to close the distance, he is more than likely going to get shot doing so. And I cannot repeat this enough. All it takes is a single bullet.

I’m not making arguments for CQC, as I think we’re both on the same page that this fight won’t come down to that, but if it did, I think we both agree Shion has the wide advantage in this department.

Overall, I hope you can see why Shion has the edge in this fight and why she is most likely to win. This is not a stomp, I do think that it is in the realm of possibility for Conan to dodge the bullets for a time, but eventually, he will get hit. That's kind of what I think is happening here. You're giving reasons as to why this fight isn't a stomp, but I believe I've laid out why those reasons are not sufficient enough to actually tip the scales into Conan's favour.
 
Conan isn't a pushover he's aware of the situation and he will do what it take to win as fast as possible. Even if the school have limited space, Conan greater mobility is a problem for Shion because she isn't gonna figure out in span of second nor have she ever faced someone like him. Aiming for someone who constantly maneuvering in places are difficult than an immobile target.

With Conan moving from levels, not even bullet can fully penetrated layer of walls. A few meters is good enough for Conan to kick his ball from lower floor or different angle where she cannot reached.

Yeah i know we prioritize manga feat however i can assured that those feats are canon as manga is and the information are taken from official wiki. A CRT won't change is matches outcome because its gonna be minor change.

I agree that Shion have advantages but i also give my reason for Conan's win and it's the decision of other members to vote on whoever they wanted. I will stayed with my argument regardless.
 
Jamesthetaker said:
Conan isn't a pushover he's aware of the situation and he will do what it take to win as fast as possible. Even if the school have limited space, Conan greater mobility is a problem for Shion because she isn't gonna figure out in span of second nor have she ever faced someone like him. Aiming for someone who constantly maneuvering in places are difficult than an immobile target.

With Conan moving from levels, not even bullet can fully penetrated layer of walls. A few meters is good enough for Conan to kick his ball from lower floor or different angle where she cannot reached.

Yeah i know we prioritize manga feat however i can assured that those feats are canon as manga is and the information are taken from official wiki. A CRT won't change is matches outcome because its gonna be minor change.

I agree that Shion have advantages but i also give my reason for Conan's win and it's the decision of other members to vote on whoever they wanted. I will stayed with my argument regardless.
Click to expand...
Hold dude, I'm having the most massive shit of my life and i'll respond after I survive this.
 
I never said Conan was a pushover and Shion, with her knowledge of Conan, will know he isn’t a push over either. Again, I have pointed out that this greater mobility which Conan has is not going to save him from the limits placed on him by the environment as well as a swarm of bullets. Shion won’t be overwhelmed as she has prior knowledge of Conan and his equipment. Of course, aiming for someone who is mobile is harder than someone who is stationary, and I’m not saying that it will be easy for Shion to tag Conan, what I am saying is that eventually, it will happen. A bullet hits Conan in his leg or more severely his head or heart. This will get easier for Shion to do as the more Conan tries to rush her, she will have a closer target to aim at.

Once again, assuming there are higher and lower levels to the school still leaves out the fact that yes, Shion’s guns can pierce through the walls of the school. I’ve sent videos demonstrating this. It is Conan who is the one who will not be able to reach Shion as Shion’s guns have, as I have repeated numerous times, have far greater range than any of Conan’s arsenal. He would need to be on the floor directly above or below Shion in order to be able to get her in his ball-kicking range. There is also an alternative Shion can do. She can simply exit the school building so that Conan does not have this perceived advantage regarding the school’s levels. After all, we’ve established that in order to do meaningful damage to Shion, Conan needs to come to her. In fact, I can just as easily say that the school doesn’t have any levels. OP didn’t specify what school this is exactly. Although I don’t think it matters much.

The crux of this whole debate is coming down to how plausible it is for Conan to get in range for his attacks, and then to perform them while in this range to hurt Shion. You have given examples of Conan’s mobility with his turbo skateboard, which I agree with, the problem is that Conan’s mobility doesn’t matter that much as he needs to get close to Shion, who will have a much easier time hitting a target that’s closer to her as well as the fact that the school environment limits Conan’s mobility and does not provide him with adequate cover from Shion’s gunfire. This is why I believe that Shion wins. While I think I made the more sound arguments, you are right that it is up to the members to vote. Speaking of which, it’s been pretty silent from them…
 
catzlaflame said:
Grace ended
Click to expand...

it hasn't been added. you just put catzaflame.

you just put the win link for conan

[(insert link of battle, do not use parentheses, then press space then put who they won against) then put franchise then put speed equalized what tier they were and what location was used

same is for shion though put it in losses and put in space who they lost against.
 
btw the aftermath

Conan: Sonozaki Shion you are charged with the murder of sakoto and for the suicide of rika. As well as stalking satoshi. You will be held for trial and sent to prison for your crimes and no one will ever be hurt by you ever again.
 
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