Composite character profiles that need to be reworked or deleted due to recent rule changes

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems to make sense, but you should ask Cal about this.

 

[The_Calaca]

He knows, actually. He's obviously against this.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Bugs bunny might need to be downgraded at worst but he shouldn't be deleted

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You'd have two profiles with the exact same shit with a different mindset. Because anything they can do in the anime they can do in the games, and vice versa. That's why Pokemon gets the pass.

 

[The_Calaca]

But that's not an excuse to mix different CHARACTERS up. On top of that, most Darkrais have different applications for the same moves and different mindsets.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Then bro, why have two different profiles with two characters with the exact same stats and powers with the same justifications, but the only difference is that one is evil and one is good? Anime!Darkrai fires Dark Void Danmaku while PMD!Darkrai uses portals & thought. Both can use the other because what one can do it one medium, they can do in another.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Threads should specify the mindset, then

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

But that's not an excuse to mix different CHARACTERS up. On top of that, most Darkrais have different applications for the same moves and different mindsets.

That is not remotely enough to seperate keys into different pages. Also, relying on Cyro is not a wise move to make your point clear either as his reasonings have been addressed before and told the exact same thing to.

And if needed to go through this thread the same way again, for whatever reason, so be it.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Threads should specify the mindset, the

^This and Cal already pointed this out in the thread already too. This is not a verse problem, its an issue with people doing something incorrectly.

 

[The_Calaca]

Why would you composite the profiles, then?

If they are too similar the solution is to dismiss one of the versions (likely the least notable) instead of ignoring the obvious personality differences and the rules of the wiki to merge both versions into the best possible outcome. Which is, again, the problem with composites altogether. This goes beyond the species' compositing because these are sentient beings with different backstories and personalities being merged into one, basically granting a serious case of bipolarity because we have no idea how this CD would think or act as it has different mindsets.

This is like merging Superman Red Son with any other good Superman because they have essentially the same powers (tiering aside), even if Red Son is from an obviously different country.

 

[Dragomer]

Those different character wouldn't have the same power at all though, one darkrai's dark void has completly different property than another Darkrai for exemple, as Cryo's say.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Because the profiles aren't actually composited? They may look like that on the surface, but they are given the pass because of the verse's canon being composite. This was discussed more in length in the composite nuking thread from multiple others.

As for Darkrai specifically, your acting like Darkrai from Mystery Dungeon or Pokepark is what Ash's Pikachu is to any run of the mill Pikachu. It most absolutely isnt. It's literally just Darkrai using different abilities. And the mindset issue is, again, resulting of people not knowing to properly clairfying mindsets.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Isn't Red Son only like...planetary?

 

[Dragomer]

Because the profiles aren't actually composited? They may look like that on the surface, but they are given the pass because of the verse's canon being composite. This was discussed more in length in the composite nuking thread from multiple others.

As for Darkrai specifically, your acting like Darkrai from Mystery Dungeon or Pokepark is what Ash's Pikachu is to any run of the mill Pikachu. It most absolutely isnt. It's literally just Darkrai using different abilities. And the mindset issue is, again, resulting of people not knowing to properly clairfying mindsets.

That's still a completly different ability, which shouldt be composited for no reason, when a single name is used for 3 or 4 different ability by 3 or 4 completly different character, it's clear those character aren't supposed to be equal or have the same ability.

Mindset doesn't change anything to the fact that one Darkrai's dark void is a projectile while another's is a ground attack or a portal.

 

[The_Calaca]

Lucario has three profiles (but his species' profile is also composited in some details which is hilarious because it's blatantly selecting what's fine to composite and what's not).

Mewtwo is also a Composite, even when the two movie versions even have different genre and the female one has the same mindset but not the same past (which kinda invalidates the movie's message but eh).

Composite Pokémon is a problem by itself because it takes any individual no matter how different it is from the rest of the media and merges with the rest like it's normal.

Or why is Pikachu from anime separated from the species outside of power differences? Isn't every media canon to each other? Shouldn't every Pikachu scale to Ash's because that's what we're doing for Darkrai, which is composited because every Darkrai scales to each other?

This is a blatant double-standard where some characters get different profiles while others don't.

@Cal "aside from tiering". It's just an example. Most Sups' have similar backgrounds but have a few differences that change their characters.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

It being used differently or not doesn't matter when the "character" in question is literally just another member of a species. Which all are capable of clearly doing the same things as each other for obvious reasons.

 

[SomebodyData]

Back in my day, we used to separate profiles, even if all timelines are canon, by timeline.
	~ SomebodyBoomer​

In all seriousness, this is probably a good time Because at this point I'm acknowledging that I don't have time to do it myself to point out that the "everything is canon" in Pokemon thing is a myth. It doesn't exist. These are all composites.

 

[The_Calaca]

Let's composite every saiyan because they are all capable of doing the same, but in a different way. Like, one can spam ki blasts and the other can't but can do ki "air attack" (the invisible ones) and another one can create destructo disks. Clearly they have all the same abilities but can use them in a different way, so it's legal to composite the species even if they can vary in personality to the point where there are mercenaries, genocides and good people.

 

[Dragomer]

It's not being used differently, it's another ability altogether with very different property for liiteraly every single one of them.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

False, and I have the statements from Masuda and Tajiri to prove it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Let's composite every saiyan because they are all capable of doing the same, but in a different way. Like, one can spam ki blasts and the other can't but can do ki "air attack" (the invisible ones) and another one can create destructo disks. Clearly they have all the same abilities but can use them in a different way, so it's legal to composite the species even if they can vary in personality to the point where there are mercenaries, genocides and good people.

I missed the part where in multiple mediums, every Saiyan scales to Frieza as opposed to Raditz. Or where the only difference is the Kamehameha shot.

 

[SomebodyData]

>Insert DIO saying "Come as much as you'd like" meme.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

I'm neutral on the matter but it's this kind of situation I think Sera was talking about, how a Vs thread divulged into a CRT for one character and a potential downgrade/verse wide CRT for the other character thus leading to branching paths and headaches for all involved... :/

 

[Dragomer]

Let's composite every saiyan because they are all capable of doing the same, but in a different way. Like, one can spam ki blasts and the other can't but can do ki "air attack" (the invisible ones) and another one can create destructo disks. Clearly they have all the same abilities but can use them in a different way, so it's legal to composite the species even if they can vary in personality to the point where there are mercenaries, genocides and good people.

Obiously the random farmer saiyan has all the same abilities as Nappa.

Baby Broly has all the same abilities as any older saiyan since he has a similar / superior scailing.

 

[SomebodyData]

To be fair Axiom, this is like the couple of profiles that need to be debated. As far as I know, everything else will be decompositified or is in the process/finished.

 

[The_Calaca]

Outside of a few outliers (aka the protagonists) saiyans were 5-C/5-B (depending on what rating they end up being after the revisions). They are all very different from each other, but it's totally legit to composite them.

Heck, even Goku and Vegeta have been at that tier so we can mix them up in the equation.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Also amazing false analogy. What would be better to say is:

Hey, why don't we say for the different Gokus, let's specify that one of them can't shoot the kamehameha from his feet, and only this one can do the warp kamehameha. That's a good assumption. It's the same move but who cares?

And let's not act like Darkrai is a species. There's three of them at most, and that's the anime. In every other medium, there's only one.

 

[SomebodyData]

That's... literally a species. "Size doesn't matter."

That's like saying Saiyans aren't a species because there is only three left.

 

[Dragomer]

I have like 6 Dardkdrai in my pokebank, all from official events so yeah, i doubt there is only 1 in the game.

Goku is a single character and even then we don't composite him nor do we composite Radditz with Beets or anything like that.

The anime and movies treat Darkrai as a species, so do the games and even the mystery dungeon.

 

[The_Calaca]

So there are three of them in the anime which isn't a species.

So why aren't those having a profile if they are different individuals?

Which, again, is clearly showing a double standard. We have two Pikachus and three Lucarios because they are different in each incarnation. They are clearly different characters, but if it's Darkrai who are we talking about it's fine to merge different ideologies and the way it applies each power because of... what was the reason, again? You said that we can't treat Darkrai as a species, so compositing it's wrong as we do that for species only.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

We have two Pikachus and three Lucarios because '''they're not Legendaries.''' There's Pikachus and Lucarios everywhere and the ones with their own profiles all diamonds in the rough.

 

[The_Calaca]

Being Legendaries is a pretty bad argument. Unless they are the so called Unique Legendaries, this shouldn't be used to allow such thing. Different individuals can't be composited even if they are from the same species.

 

[Ionliosite]

I fully agree with Cal here. Pokémon is not composite, it's just that both the anime and PokéSpe manga are as canon as the games, so all these are taken into account, and the profiles are for the species in question, the few that have profiles are because those spiecemen are outliers. If anything, I'd rather delete profiles like PMD Grovyle, Movie 8 Lucario and even Anime Pikachu (this one's info can perfectly just be on Ash's profile) for the sake of not having the double standard of those certain outliers having profiles, when is better to not have them given they're still a part of the species.

 

[SomebodyData]

Don't wanna put you on blast Ion, but you say you agree with Cal but list some of the things he's specifically mentioning against doing...

So do you agree with Cal to an extent? Or fully? Or not at all? Just to better organize the arguments.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Amazing false equivalancies that are being thrown around here.

>Lucario has three profiles (but his species' profile is also composited in some details which is hilarious because it's blatantly selecting what's fine to composite and what's not).

Lucario is absolutely not the same thing as Darkrai, because unlike Darkrai, Lucario is not only specially trained in each version, Lucario has actual different backstories entirely from what the run of the mill Lucario would ever experience. Movie Lucario is trained and lived with Sir Aaron for over centuries. Lucario 7 is the sidekick to someone who is a super hero in their universe. The closest thing Darkrai has to any of this is being the partner of a last minute plot-device trainer, who even himself, has no backstory whatsoever.

>Mewtwo is also a Composite, even when the two movie versions even have different genre and the female one has the same mindset but not the same past (which kinda invalidates the movie's message but eh).

It's the same generic thing for Mewtwo. Both were created from Mew, by scientists who want to exploit its power, which makes Mewtwo distrustful towards humans. Literally the same thing. Also, Genesect movie Mewtwo isnt female. Having a female voice actor =/= confirmed female. Should we slap a gender on Arceus for it being voiced by a male? Ash has been voiced by a female for his entire existence. And I dont think I need to go any farther on that..

>Composite Pokémon is a problem by itself because it takes any individual no matter how different it is from the rest of the media and merges with the rest like it's normal.

For one, these arent seperate characters. They're a species. Second, your being misleading here. Obviously when a pokemon shows to be very different from the rest of it's species, it's feats and capabilities aren't included in the species composite page. But pokemon like Darkrai aren't apart of that. Speaking of which, this leads me to the next point.

>Or why is Pikachu from anime separated from the species outside of power differences? Isn't every media canon to each other? Shouldn't every Pikachu scale to Ash's because that's what we're doing for Darkrai, which is composited because every Darkrai scales to each other?

>Has an entire backstory before even meeting ash

>Becomes a trainer pokemon, an MC's partner, and a well trained one at that

>Faces other trainers, pokemon and opponents that no random run of the mill Pikachu has ever even dreamed of encountering

This false equivalance is quite obvious.

>This is a blatant double-standard where some characters get different profiles while others don't.

A pokemon being actually treated as an entirely different character than another pokemon is not a double standard. Too bad Darkrai doesnt fall under this like Pikachu does.

>It's not being used differently, it's another ability altogether with very different property for liiteraly every single one of them.

It's a hax that freaking puts the target to sleep. What does Dark Void do? It's not a completely different ability. The only difference is one's a physical projectile, other is not. Even then, one Darkrai doing something without some special amp or quality to it's name doesnt mean its exclusive to what another Darkrai is capable of. This isnt some thunder armor deus ex machina power.

So, yeah. If it wasn't painfully obvious, im still in full agreement with Cal and Ionsnite on every single level.

 

[Ionliosite]

Don't wanna put you on blast Ion, but you say you agree with Cal but list some of the things he's specifically mentioning against doing...

So do you agree with Cal to an extent? Or fully? Or not at all? Just to better organize the arguments.

I fully agree with him that the species profiles are the main information and every other profiles is because those are outliers to their species. Which is why I'm giving the middle ground of "delete the outliers" because the species profiles are the consistent ones, unlike the others that are, well, outliers with in-verse justifications as to why we accept those outliers as legit feats.

 

[Abstractions]

Mewtwo being voiced by a female doesn't have anything to do with it being different but rather just due to the fact it's genderless to begin with, so the voice shouldn't matter.

But the Ash argument is a false equivalency, Ash is a boy voiced by a girl but is voiced by a girl for the express purpose of sounding like a pre-pubescent boy, there's a reason behind it, but in the case of Mewtwo there doesn't need to be a reason.

 

[SomebodyData]

Okay well here comes my second question:

No one is arguing against the outlier profiles, actually we're all pro-them, the debate is on whether the profiles should be composite or not. So how is that... middle ground?

 

[Ionliosite]

So how is that... middle ground?

Because one point of Calaca's argument is the double standard that is giving a profile for Movie 8 Lucario apart from the rest but we don't do the same with PMD Darkrai from Anime Darkrai. Which is why I say the way to solving that double standard is simply deleting Movie 8 Lucario, since a non-Legendary fighting a Legendary is a clear outlier that is only accepted because "muh trained".

 

[Dragomer]

I'm in the opposed camp, remove the species but keep the outliers, just treat them as actual characters, doing that weird species outliers composite stuff is weird, illogical and frankly a mess.