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Completed Sword vs Uncrowned Sword King (Shichika Yasuri vs Ikki Kurogane)

Hl3_or_bust

Hl3_or_bust

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After the destruction of the Yanari Shogunate by the hands of Completed Deviant Blade Shichika Yasuri, he wandered the countryside, hoping to fully map Japan as he had promised to do with Togame. However, a mysterious boy from another time is out to challenge his title as the strongest, having already proven himself to be above all other challengers to the title.

Only time will tell who is truly Complete.

Full Sword
IkkiKuroganeNovelRender
Shichika Yasuri vs Ikki Kurogane

>Completed Deviant Blade Shichika, 7-B SSSAF arc Ikki

>Speed equalized

>Shichika is assumed to have the powers copied from the other Deviant Blades
 
Why no backstory for ikki though?

Anyway let's cut off the basics:

Ap: Shichika, ikki with any of his ittou forms.

Speed: Equal. Ikki in every other form. Reaction speed goes to ikki in base due to pseudo ittou shura.

The rest of the stats is unimportant.

Now let's face it. Ikki rolfs hard due to ittou forms. There is nothing shichika can do against ikki's senses telling him to go 500x on shichika's ass. Like not trying to debate but we can all agree on this part. So i say. Let's make the battle an actual battle and restrict ittou forms for ikki. Phantom form is a thing so the 7b vs 7a ain't a problem.
 
I'd like to point out that Shichika in this state caught an attack that was constantly stated to be SoL or at least ludicrously faster than himself despite never seeing it, so speed is a non-factor.

Shichika is completely capable of simply copying Ittou forms or using the automatically given counter technique, assuming he can't just copy stats like Nanami which is kinda unlikely but still.

Phantom Form isn't working regardless of the interpretation, even outside of the counter technique. Stamina is negated due to his instinctive reaction and wrong intepretation is negated by the Kyotoryuu mentality.
 
1. That's just speed then.

2. Impossible, ittou forms use magic.

3. Instinctive reaction doesn't negate stamina and what is kyotoryuu mentality and how exactly does it stop wrong impression?
 
1: No. Shichika repeatedly states that even when he became Complete he could never see a full speed Zantou Gari moving, which is the stated-to-be-SoL attack. This didn't stop him from grabbing the sword it was performed with.

2: Deviant Blades were made using future smithing techniques, alchemy, and occult practices, with all of them explicitely breaking or exploiting the laws of physics if various ways. Shichika more than likely copied their powers regardless.

3: my bad, forgot exactly what the stamina bit did, although Instinctive Reaction also negs the wrong impression part. Anyways, Shichika copied the powers of Akuto Bita, which rejuvinates the body and purges physical limits as well as supplying them all the energy they need. All practitioners of Kyotoryuu aren't mentally human, having reconditioned themselves to think and live as weapons. In practive, no amount of bribes, charisma, manipulation, or even possession can affect them, with even the "poison" of Shikizaki Kiki's Deviant Blades, which grows stronger the more pure the wielder is, not affecting Shichika even at the very beginning of the series. The only exception to this is a person that they arbitrarily designate as their "wielder", which Shichika doesn't even do due to being his own wielder.

tl;dr Shichika isn't convinced that he was hit and just keeps going.
 
1. Predicted the trajectory then.

2. It needs magic to perform. Not "it breaks the laws of physics lol" you need this soul based characteristic that you're born with to use it. Also all that you mentioned is learnable in verse with training so not really an argument.

3. Being raised as a blade doesn't do that though. Especially when shichika was worrying over not getting hit the whole show up to when the girl died in which the only difference was that he would allow himself to get hit, not "not believe he was hit" idk how you got that.
 
1: Everything about the encounter says that it was instinctive movements and nothing more.

2: "Occult pactices". Soul fuckery exists in Katangatari too, Kyotoryuu even has techniques to kill immortals by removing their souls.

3: It did because the Yasuri's not only have a family curse, but were influenced by Shikizaki Kiki over time. It works because it works, just like all of Ikki's stuff. Because Shichika would be more than capable of just not being tricked into thinking he was hit.
 
1. Instinctive reaction is capable of doing what I said. Yes. But it doesn't work on humans, only on things with a set trajectory

2. Yes cus I meant soul hax here. There are non blazers in rakudai too, they also have a soul, they don't have magic though.

3. Ok ikki can do everything you said, he even knows the blades don't deal damage they still work on him though. So being sceptic is not good enough.
 
1: Zantou Gari does not have a set trajectory.

2: Not everyone has Ninpo, but Shichika is better than Nanami who can copy Ninpo, which is restricted to lineages, with no issues.

3: This isn't being sceptical. The "tricking of the brain" just doesn't happen in the first place for him to be skeptical.
 
1. Sword attacks by nature have trajectories.

2. Ya gonna bring up anything about shichika owning magic anytime soon?

3. As I said, ikki literally has previous knowledge and still gets done in. Nothing you mentioned points to "he doesn't recognize wounds".
 
1: and guess who uses swords in the battle. I'll give you 3 guesses and the first 2 don't count.

2: He didn't encounter any while he was Complete.

3: the wrong impression interpretation of Phantom Form hinges on the idea that it literally doesn't cause actual wounds, but just tricks the mind. Not only is this mind manip, which is resisted, but Shichika literally gains the perfect counter technique to this the instant Ikki uses it.
 
1. As i said, that changes if the dude is moving omega faster than you. Cus you can't even predict the trajectory and it can change mid swing. A supersonic dude cannot change the trajectory of a SoL attack with SoL speed. MFTL+ Ikki can change the speed of his MFTL+ Attack with MFTL+ Speed, cus he's that fast. The prediction only works with stuff that can be aim dodged.

2. Guess what that means. Dude we equalize magic in verses to magic in other verses. Example: magic in idk magi for example could equalize to magic in rakudai if they are similar in nature, because they are magic. Not "equalize anything that sounds impressive to magic", like saying "shichika copies reiatsu crush".

3. "Mind manip" which doesn't directly affect the mind. But as i said, people resist mind manip, even know the mechanics of phantom form, it still works on them. But perfect counter technique? Wut?
 
Also, he caught the sword of the 2nd user of the blade. And deemed it mediocre, he said "i never did see through it", it was never said whether or not he used it just as good, considering the fact that the sword used blood to go at those speeds, when the 2nd dude didn't use such a thing.
 
1: See my previous points about Zantou Gari, which you haven't even tried to debunk. Swords have trajectories, they don't suddenly lose them when they become fast enough like you're implying.

2: Ninpo, throughout the series, does shit like negating the weight of an object and anything it touches, extending your fingernails into blades, being able to extend your lifespan and gain powers by attaching someone else's limb to yourself, telekinetically control chains, etc. This is not just "impressive sounding stuff", this is as close as you're getting to literal magic in Katanagatari and it fits all the the relative qualifications of Blazer stuff.

3: I'd say that forcibly tricking the mind is directly affecting the mind. For the counter technique, read this:

  • Completion: The state that Shikizaki Kiki hoped one of his creations would achieve, representing the status of one who has "far surpassed perfection". As the Completed Deviant Blade, Shichika represents and surpasses the pinnacle of what can theoretically be achieved using martial arts, swordsmanship, and weaponry. Emonzaemon states that against such a being, the advantage of superior numbers becomes irrelevant. Every weapon attribute, martial art, technique, and wielder he encounters is analyzed and understood instantly by his Kyotōryü sixth sense, granting him its usage and the perfect counter technique, even making it possible to evolve previously perfected techniques to accomplish more than they had prior, as shown when he instantly created a new form of Shichika Hachiretsu that could be used on two enemies simultaneously, and immediately informing him of singular weaknesses that he didn't know of prior, such as Zokuto Yoroi's inability to redirect attacks without touching the ground.
4: That would be dumb considering the fact that it was repeatedly stated that those retainers were, for the most part, stronger and more skilled than the original Deviant Blade users, or at least more compatable with them like with Uron and Akuto Bita. Additionally, i coulda sworn he had, otherwise Shichika would've had no issues just insta-gibbing the guy.
 
1. As I said against an mftl+ dude he won't even know where the sword is coming from. So drop it.

2. Still not magic. Ikki can literally break fate and logic with willpower and skill, he still can't do techniques that require more magic than he has. So any magic in shichika or you gonna keep your "my verse can do stuff without magic" so I can throw them at yhwach so they copy reiatsu?

3. That's just what ikki could do in like volume 2. It's volume 12 now he has broken through fate and logic still doesn't help vs the phantom form. Ikki has the 6th sense, he does copy techniques and understand then even on the 1st usage, he does come up with counters on the first usage yet doesn't help vs phantom form.

4. No, quite literally most of them were idiots with shichika explaining their flaws. A dude used the heavy sword after negating its heaviness, the girl got in the way of the puppet making the puppet weaker, one of the girls didn't even know how the deviant blade could be used, the girl with hundreds of swords was weaker due to not having the same personality. Shichika deemed the attack of the sharp sword mediocre, the sword didn't have blood which is the only reason it reaches high speeds and the 2nd users were constantly implied to be FAR inferior to the original when fighting shichika. So moot point, shichika saw the attack
 
1: No, because speed is equalized so idek where you're getting MFTL+ from.

2: That's hax then. You can say it's skill as much as you want, but that doesn't change the fact that the wiki says that its hax. Ninpo has a lot of the same elements of Blazer stuff, so if that doesn't count then Blazer stuff isn't magic.

3: You've admitted that it's mind manip, and is therefore resisted. Additionally, the perfection listed is somewhat below people like Nanami who instinctively dodge by microscopic margins and react with movements that have 0 unnecessary motion and were superior even to Kyotoryuu at the time. Nanami also did that stance copying thing you like so much, and Shichika is so far above her at this point it isn't even funny. I've also already stated how Phantom Form gets completed negated.

4: Bofori did that so he could even use it in the first place, so that one isn't exactly the greatest example. The girl had no clue of Biyorigou's weakness at the time, and it wouldn't have really helped her anyways, and afaik Seito Hakari wouldn't have helped unless she was already stronger than Shichika, so that point is moot. The girl with Sento Tsuruga wasn't weaker afaik, she was just weak compared to Shichika at that point and he diced a good chunk of those swords. That doesn't mean anything and you know it, since being "mediocre" compared to Shichika at that point still puts you far above most other people in the series. No, he did not see the attack. he himself states that he didn't, so idek where you're getting this from and why tf wouldn't he just see the normal attack that you say it is?
 
1. Not for the 500x stat amp.

2. Magic is magic. Magic can be hax but in itself it's just something magical. And when did I ever say it's skill? It is not skill to have magic you're either born with it or not, it's linked to fate.

3. Ikki does all that you mentioned in volume 2 doe.... also you didn't really state anything. I said that none of what you said are all that impressive cus ikki does all those and still gets affected.

4. No shichika said that they all were mistakes. The dude was surprised when shichika said that about the weight, so was the girl with the puppet, same for the girl with many swords etc. None of them realized their flaws. And again the attack didn't use blood which is the ONLY reason it's sol, the user was heavily implied to be mediocre and shichika said he could never see "his" strikes for the first guy who used blood and everything. Anything besides headcanon putting that at sol?
 
1: Which gets copied or just make Shichika insta-gib Ikki?

2: I was refering to the "breaking fate and logic with skill" part.

3: Citation please.

4: I'm honestly tired on this argument. It has nothing to do with anything you've been trying to argue anyways.
 
1. Point below, shichika lacks magic and he lacks body enhancement noble arts, just impossible.

2. That was just him trying hard enough, you can put that as immense willpower but same thing.

3. On his profile. Im on my phone so can't help you here.

4. It does, it debunks the he blocked it without seeing it part.
 
1: So Ittou forms are magic but Ikki doesn't have magic......

2: It's still hax no matter how many times you rephrase it.

3: Tell me what to CTRL + F

4: Except for the fact that Shichika literally sys he didn't see it.
 
1. Ikki doesn't have "much" magic. He still has, he just has magic about 1/300 that of stella, which is very low. His strongest noble art at base amps his stats by 2x, stella can do the same without an noble art, unconsciously by up to 6 or 7 times if i recall correctly. That's the difference he still has magic.

2. Ok, never said it's not, hell you can even see me around saying the phrase "desperado hax". He gained desperado via willpower or whatever, but him inducing death is still hax, the way he gained is meaningless.

3. Just read the titles, can't remember the names.

4. The slice of the first guy. He said "I could never see his slash" then the dude slashed, he called it mediocre. Shichika never said he couldn't see that slash, only previous slashes which used blood.
 
Ikki copying >>> Nanami because he doesn't copy the technique, he copies the sword style which as explained copies it's whole story, and rather than just copying it, Ikki perfects:

That's why I'm quite good at these kinds of tactics. I can grasp most sword techniques with only a minute of trading blows."

Swordsmanship describes its own knowledge, style describes its own history, and breathing describes its own principle. If one followed the branches and leaves of a sword style and arrived down at the root, then it wouldn't be hard to grasp that style's techniques and combinations, or its approach in facing different situations. This was what Ikki was saying.

"And if I can understand the style that far, I can also create techniques that outperform my opponent's."

What was the ultimate way to surpass an opponent's sword style? Simply correct all the flaws of that style to create a more perfect one, and the new would be plainly superior to the old. The new style would account for all the old style's faults, and even compensate for its weaknesses. It would eclipse its precursor in every offensive and defensive situation.

"What the hell does that mean!?"

ÒÇîOh goodness, you're exceptionally dull, aren't you Kiri-yan? Haven't you seen the fight between the princess and Kuro-bou? At that time, Kuro-bou saw and stole the princess's Imperial Arts, but stealing a sword technique isn't an ordinary feat like imitating a style. From something like a style or swordsmanship, the accumulated history is studied, taking the ideas arrived there, and exposing and returning with the principle of its foundation. That's what we call stealing a sword technique.ÒÇì

^^Just more proof that copying a single technique like Nanami does, is even stated to be inferior to Ikki copying the whole story of the sword style.

0 unnecessary movements coming from Stella who gets humiliated in terms of sword abilities in front of Ikki:

"Oh, sorry about that. After seeing a pervert who was brushing a girl's thighs in the name of training, I got a bit too irritated. Thanks to that, seems like my swordsmanship is all messed up. Since it's come to this, would you be kind enough to fix that for me now?"

"O, O-Okay."

Ikki was overwhelmed by Stella's force which wouldn't allow him to refuse, so he nodded.

….But I really don't want to mess with Stella's sword.

After all, Stella's sword was 'a sword of the strong' meant for mowing down her enemies. Compared to Ikki's 'sword of the weak' which was for outsmarting the enemy, it was fundamentally different. He didn't feel like there would be any results even if he tried to help. But if he didn't comply here, her irritation would only grow and grow, causing a period of incessant pouting.

Without any choice, but without extracting his hands, he observed Stella's swings.

…Huh?

At first glance it might look like her swings were totally messed up, but looking carefully he could see that from her toes, to her knees and hips, her movements were completely synchronized. There weren't any useless actions at all. Stella had probably intended to mess up those swings, but because of her superhuman perception of motion, she subconsciously corrected the movements of her joints and muscles and created the most suitable form where the least energy is wasted. This was truly strength deserving of pride.

Just for context if it's not understandable from the scene here. Stella was trying to mess up as in consciously trying to be bad, and this is the result, 0 unnecessary movement from a girl that's <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Ikki and when trying to mess up intentionally.

The instinctive dodge, i mean Ikki literally instinctively calculates and reflects attacks while having a literally unconscious mind from an opponent that is like hundreds of times if not more powerful than him.

His consciousness was gone.


It was a completely hopeless situation.


Stella grasped the situation.


(I got him!)


She raised the fist that delivered the final blow.


In order to reach the Seven Stars Summit,


In order to surpass the one who she'd be chasing,


She'd put her all into that blow…!


And then a blade reacted, as if just passing by, cutting through flesh and bone alike.


Blood redder than the magma dampened the floating slab they stood on.


That blood was hot enough to be on fire.


"Eh…?"


It could be no one else.


That was the Crimson Princess Stella Vermillion's, dragon's blood.


ÒÇîÒÇîÒÇîOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!ÒÇìÒÇìÒÇì


ÒÇîA C-Counterattack! Just as we thought the match was decided! An impossible counterattack from Fighter Kurogane, who we thought to be in a hopeless situation! He cleaved her diagonally from below! What a reversal!ÒÇì


ÒÇîIt's Ma, Madoka! The impact of Fighter Stella's attack was returned by his ingrained swordsmanship! I can't believe it! He could still do something in that state!ÒÇì


"Gah, Haa!"


ÒÇîFighter Stella has dropped to her knees! Boiling hot blood is spilling onto the white stone! This amount of blood is not normal!ÒÇì


(This damage is… Not good…!)


While pressing down entrails that threatened to spill out, Stella moaned.


For Stella, within whom a the power of a dragon resided, this was not fatal.


But even with the vitality of a dragon, this injury would take time to recover from.


She would at least be unable to really move for dozens of seconds.


If she was attacked now she would be finished.


Sensing this, Stella mustered all her willpower to stand and beat a retreat.


ÒÇîFighter Stella is staggering away! She's put some distance between them!ÒÇì


"Ahhhh..!"


However, once she got an island away, Stella collapsed again.


Her vision wavered. Her limbs had no strength.


The blood loss was extreme. She couldn't produce enough to offset the loss.


Even worse than the physical damage though, her spirit was seriously shaken.


A single question filled her head.


Why?


He should have been knocked unconscious.


Not just then. Even now, Ikki should not have recovered his consciousness.


So then, why had he been able to retaliate with Madoka?


She didn't understand.


While Stella was confused by this mystery, Ikki finally regained his consciousness in front of her.


"..."


At first he was surprised by the sight of an injured Stella retreated some distance away.


(...Did I do that?...)


He'd been unconscious, but the feeling of having cut Stella remained in his hand.


While he was unconscious, he had countered in the best way he could.


That feeling, of having used Madoka to recover from a helpless situation, remained in his body.


How had he managed to move his body? He didn't understand it all.


But that's why he realized.


That movement had not been anything special.


It was not a miraculous critical hit, nor a poor movement.


It was just normal.

Madoka requires calculating the exact force and timing of the opponent's attacks along with angles to counter perfectly. He did all that while unconscious via instinct alone.

About the dodging without extra movement:

I daresay Fighter Ikki is not only 100 steps ahead of Fighter Stella, but that he knows all her timings perfectly.ÒÇì


ÒÇîIt- It's that much?ÒÇì


ÒÇîTruthfully, Ikki begins his evasions before Fighter Stella swings. He evades just enough, with not even an extra millimeter of movement, showing unparalleled accuracy in his defensive movement. He won't be getting hit. There should be no way.ÒÇì


That level of analysis would be inadequate for this match, was what Kaieda said.
 
He kind of did the same against Dandalion. Countered a technique on the first time he saw it:

His intuition came from the motion of the enemy, the detailed gaze movements and the vast combat experience.

And also he read through of the enemy's sword, he saw through it even if it was his first time seeing a technique.

Seeing that it was too much to be struck by his own ability, he smashed it from the onset without hesitation.

Dandalion transmitted his honest praise to his powers of observation, imagination and his decisiveness to devote himself to it.

― In addition, you made of the handle a shield, which is indeed a really interesting way of using the sword, you are not different from the rumors.
 
Nanami not only copies from stances, but she can perfect any technique she see's twice to such a degree that countless generations of training and increase in Ninpo couldn't reach it. I also don't see anything comparable to her instinctive stuff, since Nanami's instinctive movements actually has a statement to show just how precise it was.

Shichika, on the other hand, just needs to see a technique once to do that, and he doesn't even need to see it since well before he became Complete he copied and reacted to attacks he couldn't even percieve. Even at worst, passive counter-technique creation screws Ikki really badly.

anyways

1: So Ikki still has magic and Ittou forms are still magic. What exactly stops Shichika from just copying it then?

2: "the way he gained it is meaningless" ok Mr. Uses-Desperado-Key-Feats-For-Base-Ikki, keep saying that while also saying that it somehow counts as a quantifiable skill feat.
 
I am the opposite of able to relax n i n g e

His copying should be better than Nanami's, with which she was able to copy Ninpo which basically has the same qualifications as Rakudai magic but doesn't count according to Earl.

Also, you cannot learn new Ninpo normally just as an fyi. Semantics based on a singular statement of a dying teenager < statements throughout the series
 
Maybe you should tell that to Earl, who suddenly gained his second galaxy brain by deciding that nothing can prove dura negation or invulnerability because loltier7, so he can stop being a salt mine.
 
Ok so like:

>Nanam can copy from stance

Lel Ikki copies the entire history of something from looking at it's stance.

>Needs to see a technique twice

He countered Dandalion even though it was the first time Dandalion used a technique.

>Countless generatons couldn't reach it

I mean not my fault no one compares to Nanami in verse. Doesn't mean Ikki hasn't already outdone her copy.

>It shows how precise it is

Ikki was dodging without fail against stella and it showed that he was dodging with less than 1 mm.

>Reacted to attacks he couldn't even perceive.

I mean ikki literally does the same by getting visions of his future due to his experience but if you meant the time he caught the sword that could cut through anything. They never stated he couldn't perceive that. It's like saying "all users of Kyotoryuu are the same".

>Passive counter creation

Lol the name. First, ikki does the same. Second Ikki knows what Shichika gonna do before even he does. Third, countering something that's more skilled than you are is not happening.

1. >They are magic >Shichika copies

I mean Desperado is one thing. Cus becoming a desperado doesn't need magic (in verse it does, but otherwise it shouldn't), but magic attacks need "magic" so ya gonna go with "he copies and uses cus it's Shichika and Shichika does it all"? Without a certain thing called "magic" that is capable of conceptual feats, Shichika is not touching it. Then there is the problem that Ikki who literally broke fate, is still incapable of copying a noble art, because the type of noble art depends on the person, it's unique and cannot be copied via "lol skill". And remember this is "Desperado Ikki" who not only is an existence completely beyond Shichika, but he also has "magic" the thing Shichika doesn't. Yet he still can't copy noble arts.

2. >Desperado feats for base.

I mean he does have a base form in desperado. And im not using those otherwise i'd be saying "ikki just uses Oikage and calls it a day".
 
Shichika and Nanami basically do the opposite by forming the most powerful possible version of that technique after seeing it enough times.

That was only for Nanami. Shichika only needs to "see" a technique once, but his senses and instincts are so extreme that he doesn't even need to actually see it.

Yeah no. As i already stated what they're doing is creating the theoretical most powerful version of the technique or power, such as merely drastically reducing weight being turned into negating weight entirely, or the marksmanship of a Maniwa Ninja being turned into a 100% accurate throwing attack.

Microscopic distances (some amount of micrometers) < 1mm. As in, they are smaller distances.

Not even going to touch the first part of that one. What I will say is that he still somewhat reacted to and moved out of the range of a full speed Zantou Gari early in the series, like the second episode.

Citation please. Does Ikki ever predict someone with instinctive movements at least hundreds of times more precise than his own? Because against that knowing what a person thinks really doesn't help a lot. Also nice presumption there, I'm not going to touch that since that is a massive shitshow for another time.

Ok, you could've just said that earlier and it would've prevented that whole discussion. That does warrant a limited resistance to power mimicry btw, like there is no other way around that lol. Also this is not Desperado Ikki, read the OP.

No i mean you giving the "breaking fate and logic via skill" lecture when the key in use is ******* pre-SSSAF Ikki or some shit.
 
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