(Complete Saint Seiya verse Overhaul Part 1) - Perhaps one of the top 10 most ambitious overhauls to a verse in vswiki history?

[StekFence]

These space-time transcendents do not refer to any spatial or mathematical dimension other than statement. Only mathematically higher dimensional than the dice. I can easily say this.

Im not sure if I exactly understand what you are saying, but Both transcending space-time, and ascending to a higher mathematical dimension are used to describe what’s happening after death to the consciousness. Thus, they are being equated.

 

[StekFence]

I disagreed NEP2 as I couldn't see this in scans. Because it wasn't written when I read it.

It’s under the Nep for 9th sense users section of the op.

“In addition to that, the awakening of the 9th sense destroys the "Framework" that makes up an individuals existence. This "framework" includes a characters "Karma," their essence, their history, "Nothingness," and even their narrative within the plot.

The reason Nothingness is here, is because the all realities in the Saint Seiya Multiverse is made up of "Dunamis" which is the primordial nothingness before existence. It makes up everything including the very ground the characters stand on. This is a reference to the buddhist concept of "Sunyata" where the true nature of everything is nothingness/emptiness.”
I think what the op forgot to mention is that Dunamis is a power source contained within, much like the cosmos/essence.

 

[AlexZiggy]

I believe, and the op can correct me if I’m wrong, but Dunamis is shown to be primordial nothingness. that would be erased and reduced to nothingness, when the 9th sense is achieved, along with the other things. Thus, it would be a nothingness beyond nothingness, because it erased primordial nothingness.

But this doesn't really work does it? Dunamis is the maximum expression of the 9th. How can it be destroyed if it's the evolution of the the thing that destroys everything else?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

But this doesn't really work does it? Dunamis is the maximum expression of the 9th. How can it be destroyed if it's the evolution of the the thing that destroys everything else?

Their power over dunamis isn't destroyed but yhe nothingness they are composed of.

 

[AlexZiggy]

Their power over dunamis isn't destroyed but yhe nothingness they are composed of.

So the Sunyata?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

So the Sunyata?

Yeah which is dunamis but not the dunamis from within if that makes sense.

 

[Georredannea15]

It’s under the Nep for 9th sense users section of the op.

“In addition to that, the awakening of the 9th sense destroys the "Framework" that makes up an individuals existence. This "framework" includes a characters "Karma," their essence, their history, "Nothingness," and even their narrative within the plot.

The reason Nothingness is here, is because the all realities in the Saint Seiya Multiverse is made up of "Dunamis" which is the primordial nothingness before existence. It makes up everything including the very ground the characters stand on. This is a reference to the buddhist concept of "Sunyata" where the true nature of everything is nothingness/emptiness.”
I think what the op forgot to mention is that Dunamis is a power source contained within, much like the cosmos/essence.

Yep ,it's seems a NEP1. I'm really sorry but it's a NEP1.

 

[StekFence]

I’m fairly sure a State where non existence is erased would be Type 2, under the stipulation that in terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

The reason for this is because The Soul and Mind have a change in their dimensionality when the 8th stage of consciousness is awakened.[1] It ascends higher escaping the Higher Dimensional membrane of The Universe[2] by transcending space as well as time which allowed characters to know everything[3]. This allows the users to perceive the Multiverse.[4]

This is everything for tier 1, right?

The first 2 can probably be used but the other 2 are only cosmic awareness.

Also noticed the same kanji that talks about higher dimensions is used in the multiverse scan so dunno how much that hurts the argument that those are literal higher dimensional planes and not just other dimensions/universes.

I'm by no means an expert but I doubt this will get you to tier 1, but if it does then congrats.

 

[Georredannea15]

I’m fairly sure a State where non existence is erased would be Type 2, under the stipulation that in terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence.

Being a nothingness here is NEP1. But erasing this nothingness is not NEP2. If and only if there is a "deeper" nothingness after this nothingness is erased, that is NEP2.

Of course, you have to prove that the nothing that returns after this is deleted is a "deeper nothingness" than the previous one. Because every nothing that returns after being erased is not always a deeper nothingness. At least that's what I know.

If returning from nothingness to deeper nothingness is NEP2 then yes it can. But It has to be a deeper nothingness.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

This is everything for tier 1, right?

The first 2 can probably be used but the other 2 are only cosmic awareness.

Also noticed the same kanji that talks about higher dimensions is used in the multiverse scan so dunno how much that hurts the argument that those are literal higher dimensional planes and not just other dimensions/universes.

I'm by no means an expert but I doubt this will get you to tier 1, but if it does then congrats.

each scan was professionaly translated by multiple different people who are native and expert japanese speakers in Subbreddit R/translator

also the kanji for "Higher dimension" and "multiverse (multiple Dimensions)" are different.


Edit: the scans are in the same sequences of scenes. the cosmic awaremess is because of the higher state of being.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Being a nothingness here is NEP1. But erasing this nothingness is not NEP2. If and only if there is a "deeper" nothingness after this nothingness is erased, that is NEP2.

Of course, you have to prove that the nothing that returns after this is deleted is a "deeper nothingness" than the previous one. Because every nothing that returns after being erased is not a deeper nothing. At least that's what I know.

If returning from nothingness to deeper nothingness is NEP2 then yes it can. But It has to be a deeper nothingness.

returning? They aren't returning from one nothingness to another...

Their doing the first thing you stated. its a deeper state of nothingness that is achieved after the previous is primordial nothingness is destroyed.

Typing on phone atm

 

[Georredannea15]

returning? They aren't returning from one nothingness to another...

Their doing the first thing you stated. its a deeper state of nothingness that is achieved after the previous is primordial nothingness is destroyed.

Typing on phone atm

Can I see scans ? If it's true, NEP2 seems fine. But I'm going to bed right now... I can look tomorrow.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I looked over the OP and think it's fine.

Are there any rebuttals I should be aware of? I'd rather not read the whole thread to find them.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I looked over the OP and think it's fine.

Are there any rebuttals I should be aware of? I'm rather not read the whole thread to find them.

The only thing that is clearly stated in the scan is that the higher dimension is beyond the and the souls of the deceased ascend here, but there is no mention of the membrane being higher dimensional. There's an HDE for souls here, but I don't think it's 5D because it doesn't talk about being higher dimensional for membrane, and souls in that case would just be 4D

I'm sorry but, without further context, this phrase "beyond space-time" seems to be used only in the context of being greater/superior than the Multiverse. So it's not dimensional .

What I can say for this here is that everything in the universe depends on a cause and effect. Yes, that's true, but you have to prove that "cause-effect" relationships in this universe include all cause-effect nature and the whole concept of causality.

Otherwise it would only be Acausality type 4. This is basically why it is so difficult to qualify for Acausality Type 5.

Here primordial nothingness is simply like "being-non-existence". So you have a existent but you are also a non-existence. That would be Type 1 only. Because I couldn't see anything like "going beyond non-existence". or "lack of dual existence" in the contexts shown. Just a primitive nothingness. Looks like Type 1 at best. (At least when I look at your browsing and contexts)

I have a few more things to write about Transduality. Other than that, I hope I don't look like a "hater" because I'm completely neutral towards this verse.

Okay then;

First of all, I'm a bit suspicious about L1-C. The statements seem to refer only to their cosmic awareness rather than a qualitative superiority in terms of AP (strength). Because it is mentioned that their transcendence of space-time allows them to know everything. You need to support that this is in terms of strength etc. Also, the statement of being higher dimensional than the membrane of the Universe does not say that the membrane is higher dimensional, but rather that the place they are in is higher dimensional than the membrane. And honestly, I didn't see anything about the dimensionality of the membrane in the scans- I would appreciate it if you could correct me if I'm wrong.

+

What you are saying for Acausality Type 5 is simply Type 4. For Type 5 you need to be independent of any causal system that there is and can be. Just being independent of one is not enough for Type 5.

Other than that, I don't think there's anything I disagree with. And since I'm not very interested, I haven't looked carefully- And I am a bit lazy too ngl. So I apologize if I've missed anything.

This is everything for tier 1, right?

The first 2 can probably be used but the other 2 are only cosmic awareness.

Also noticed the same kanji that talks about higher dimensions is used in the multiverse scan so dunno how much that hurts the argument that those are literal higher dimensional planes and not just other dimensions/universes.

I'm by no means an expert but I doubt this will get you to tier 1, but if it does then congrats.

Those are the ones, but I think there are a few more.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

The disagreements have been refuted as well in these posted. For some reason it combined 2 or 3 different post into yhe same quote block.

I'll be at work fot a large part of the day I can't respond with lengthy detailed anything yet.

The reason for Tier is because "The Universe" is encased in a higher dimensional membrane.

The Soul and Mind both are ascended into a different state of dimensionality when the 8th stage of consciousness is awakened.

This allows both the mind and soul to escape the membrane of "The Universe," the character then gains Cosmic Awareness where they know everything because their Soul and Mind Transcended space as well as time.

This higher dimensional perspective with their mind allows them to see the multiverse, and existences within in it.

Something to take note of is that "Time" is also transcended with the mind, and because of that. The character gained Cosmic awareness. Not only are they percieving the multiverse, but their perceiving the causality continuum of every Universe in the muiltiverse that includes past, present, and future and all the infinite branches. This is elaborated by the oracle delphi.





In conclusion because their minds was elevated to a new dimensional axis they can now see the whole multiverse and everything within it.


Acausality Type 5 is explained here. By achieving the 8th stage of consciousness the Soul and Mind has achieved a state of Unchangness. Which is literally what Acausality Type 5 is about see these links [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]

As for NEP 2, i was reading the definetion for it



I was looking at the 2 bolded parts there for it. This is because the 8th sense is the "Framework" that makes up an invididual person. It contains their Karma, History, narrative in the plot, Life force, Essence, Soul, mind, etc etc etc.

But that would also include "Dunamis." Which is a primordial Nothingness that precedes creation, and all worlds is made of this stuff. This ties into the concept of Sunyata which is mentioned in LC, and WoG. Quoting myself from the blog i made. Thus, my train of thought was a state of nothingness beyond an already established primordial nothingness that precedes creation was achieved.




What was the other issues here? I just got home and i will be busy soon.

The context would be the previous 8th sense scans, it’s the Same few chapters of the manga. Take all three scans together, you have the soul/mind transcending space and time, into a higher mathematical dimension. The scan below those three shows they can perceive the whole Multiverse, which is consistent with their mind/soul being above the whole thing.

each scan was professionaly translated by multiple different people who are native and expert japanese speakers in Subbreddit R/translator

also the kanji for "Higher dimension" and "multiverse (multiple Dimensions)" are different.


Edit: the scans are in the same sequences of scenes. the cosmic awaremess is because of the higher state of being.

returning? They aren't returning from one nothingness to another...

Their doing the first thing you stated. its a deeper state of nothingness that is achieved after the previous is primordial nothingness is destroyed.

Typing on phone atm

nt with their mind/soul being above the whole thing.

I’m fairly sure a State where non existence is erased would be Type 2, under the stipulation that in terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

So.
In regards to the canonicity of the various spin-offs, I agree that Kurumada being credited as the author is pretty damning. But as we've briefly touched on on Discord, this has a few key issues, namely because of the fact that there is supposedly only one version of each god in the multiverse. How would we rectify that with the story of GA, where we are presented with a Seiya who battled Hades in Elysium and is still actively suffering from his curse, with the story of ND, where Seiya had a limited time before succumbing to the curse? And, if these are two seperate timelines, wouldn't that contradict the singular gods hypothesis, seeing as there would have to exist at least 2 versions of Hades' true body for both timelines?


Outside of the canonicity portion of the OP, I would also like to tackle the Acausality proposal. Wouldn't it actually just be type 4 instead of 5, considering this note in the Acausality page "note: Being completely independent of time or laws; or similar forces, does not make you completely independent of causality without the relationship between these forces and causality being clarified, with it only being considered as evidence for an irregular relationship with causality otherwise"?


Finally, I agree with Hasty regarding Karma. It's fine either or.

So, obviously the revision is very messy and being 5D doesn't mean it's Immeasurable speed. You have to be faster than a linear time or exceed the concept of time.

Sorry but it doesn't have 5D or any R>F features and it won't be immeasurable speed even if you are 5D this way. Apart from that, having the causality of time and being independent of this time is definitely not Type 5 Causality. At best, Type 4 and NEP2 are just NEP1. Transduality is controversial.

I can explain in more detail if you want.

And that

 

[StekFence]

So, obviously the revision is very messy and being 5D doesn't mean it's Immeasurable speed. You have to be faster than a linear time or exceed the concept of time.

Sorry but it doesn't have 5D or any R>F features and it won't be immeasurable speed even if you are 5D this way. Apart from that, having the causality of time and being independent of this time is definitely not Type 5 Causality. At best, Type 4 and NEP2 are just NEP1. Transduality is controversial.

I can explain in more detail if you want.

And that

Mastered 8th sense chars having 5d minds and Being able to perceive the multiverse entirely, means they have immeasurable reactions. Gods can no effort blitz them.

 

[Georredannea15]

The disagreements have been refuted as well in these posted. For some reason it combined 2 or 3 different post into yhe same quote block.

I'll be at work fot a large part of the day I can't respond with lengthy detailed anything yet.

The disagreements have been refuted as well in these posted. For some reason it combined 2 or 3 different post into yhe same quote block.

I'll be at work fot a large part of the day I can't respond with lengthy detailed anything yet.

- What you said for NEP2 would be correct, but I haven't seen any scans that say that. I have no command of the verse and I will say whatever the scans say.

- And the same was true for the "membrane". Scans didn't mention anything about the dimensionality of the membrane. It just says that souls reach a higher dimension than the dice. It would only be 4D without anything more.

- What has been said about transduality; That the multiverse contains positive and negative dualities, and even hierarchies and objects participate in this duality. But they must be "all concepts of dualism".

- For example; dualities in which these objects, hierarchies and opposing emotions participate, can only have 200 dualities or 20000 dualities (I hope you understand what I mean.) For this to be Type 2 at best, it is necessary to have "all concepts of dualism" in what has been said. In such a case, if all dual concepts and dualism were not proven to exist, and only the object, hierarchy, and psychic emotions were stated to be in duality, this would be type 1 without further context. (There are a few examples in the Type TD section.)

- But if this was proven by other statements and supports, it would be Type 2 yes.

Just as all concepts of causality must exist for Aca5 to exist, and that concept of causality must have "all cause-effect" natures...

 

[StekFence]

What I can say for this here is that everything in the universe depends on a cause and effect. Yes, that's true, but you have to prove that "cause-effect" relationships in this universe include all cause-effect nature and the whole concept of causality.

Otherwise it would only be Acausality type 4. This is basically why it is so difficult to qualify for Acausality Type 5

as Far as I know, you only have to be independent of Causality, not it’s concept. Ie, being outside causality for instance. At least, that’s what it’s page says.

 

[Georredannea15]

Mastered 8th sense chars having 5d minds and Being able to perceive the multiverse entirely, means they have immeasurable reactions. Gods can no effort blitz them.

This immeasurable speed would not exist even if it were in 5D. Or the ability to perceive the entire multiverse with cosmic awareness would not be Immeasurable speed.

 

[StekFence]

And, the examples shown, Elder scrolls and Cthulhu mythos characters, have justifications that imply they are unbound by causality,not it’s concept.

as Far as I know, you only have to be independent of Causality, not it’s concept. Ie, being outside causality for instance. At least, that’s what it’s page says.

 

[Georredannea15]

as Far as I know, you only have to be independent of Causality, not it’s concept. Ie, being outside causality for instance. At least, that’s what it’s page says.

Yes, it says so on the page, but Causality Type 5 is to be independent of all cause and effect situations. So this “being independent of causality” may be a certain causality. It must also be proved that there is a "concept of causality" or "causality" that includes all cause and effect natures. Causality This is why Type 5 is so misunderstood. And that's why it's so hard to qualify.

 

[Georredannea15]

And, the examples shown, Elder scrolls and Cthulhu mythos characters, have justifications that imply they are unbound by causality,not it’s concept.

Unicron is one of the best examples for Acausality Type 5.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Mastered 8th sense chars having 5d minds and Being able to perceive the multiverse entirely, means they have immeasurable reactions. Gods can no effort blitz them.

It's not 5D, it's talking about a higher sense, which they couldn't reach, the quotes mentioned are not referring to a higher dimension, but that the 8th sense is on a higher level and a distance greater than all other senses, chapter TLC 232, has nothing quoting a higher dimension, but a higher sense.

I strongly recommend that you read what you comment, because there is nothing citing about being a 5D dimension, it is just mentioning a larger cosmos.

 

[Hasty12345]

It's not 5D, it's talking about a higher sense, which they couldn't reach, the quotes mentioned are not referring to a higher dimension, but that the 8th sense is on a higher level and a distance greater than all other senses, chapter TLC 232, has nothing quoting a higher dimension, but a higher sense.

I strongly recommend that you read what you comment, because there is nothing citing about being a 5D dimension, it is just mentioning a larger cosmos.

this is a blatant lie.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

This immeasurable speed would not exist even if it were in 5 dimensions. Or the ability to perceive the entire multiverse with cosmic awareness would not be Immeasurable speed.

It's not a higher dimension, bro, I just read the chapter now and I can understand that it's a higher sense, but not a higher dimension.

 

[StekFence]

Luffy. The scans aren’t from that chapter. They are from the special chapter

 

[Hasty12345]

It's not a higher dimension, bro, I just read the chapter now and I can understand that it's a higher sense, but not a higher dimension.

TLC 232

You're not even reading the right chapter? How could you not tell they're not the same chapter by the pictures alone? Have you not read the scans in the OP?

 

[Hasty12345]

Lost Canvas doesn't even have 232 chapters

List of Saint Seiya: The Lost Canvas chapters - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

What chapters are you reading dude?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I'll refute when I get home which will be a while

 

[Victor1251]

These 2 blogs I created need reviewed, and potentially turned into pages for the wiki.

TheUnshakableOne/sandbox

vsbattles.fandom.com

The 8th Sense in Saint Seiya Explained

vsbattles.fandom.com

Explanation of the first blog summarized (The Canon Blog)



The 8th sense explanation blog summarizing it

8th sense users would get the following; Their Soul, and Mind should be Tier 1 scaling of at least 5D because of Reality-Fiction Difference it has with the multiverse. This should also mean immeasurable speed reactions, which upscales to the Gods having full immeasurable speed.


Karma may potentially being a Type 1 Concept in the verse with at the very least 2-A Potency and range



NEP for 9th Sense users and higher Sense Users




Additional information, is in the blogs that further explain things

Staff Agrees:

Staff Disagrees:

Knowledgeable member agrees:

Knowledgeable member disagrees:

Other's Agree:

Other's Disagree:

I agree

 

[StekFence]

Bros reading Saint Tenma

 

[StekFence]

I strongly recommend that you read what you comment, because there is nothing citing about being a 5D dimension, it is just mentioning a larger cosmos.

I strongly recommend you realize the manga only had 223 chapters

 

[AlexZiggy]

The membrane has no stated dimensionality, true, but it wraps around time-space. Transcending it should be 5D afaik.

 

[Georredannea15]

You're not even reading the right chapter? How could you not tell they're not the same chapter by the pictures alone? Have you not read the scans in the OP?

So... I've read it and the only phrase for 5D is "space-time transcending". But this is not dimensional. This means only in other contexts that there is complete dominance over the multiverse. Other than that, I can honestly say that he wasn't saying that the dice were high-dimensional, or even nothing about the dimensionality of the dice. He just said that souls evolved into a higher dimension than dice, which would be HDE at best.

 

[Rabbit2002]

Agree with everything but neutral about Tier 1

 

[StekFence]

Don’t forget the phrase ascending into a higher dimension

 

[Georredannea15]

Don’t forget the phrase ascending into a higher dimension

The difference in dimensionality between these souls and the dice, there is nothing referring to space-time. And there's nothing in the scans about the dimensionality of the membrane. If we go even deeper, I will want this transcendence to be truly spatial and mathematically equivalent, and I will be like a hater.

 

[Hasty12345]

So... I've read it and the only phrase for 5D is "space-time transcending". But this is not dimensional. This means only in other contexts that there is complete dominance over the multiverse. Other than that, I can honestly say that he wasn't saying that the dice were high-dimensional, or even nothing about the dimensionality of the dice. He just said that souls evolved into a higher dimension than dice, which would be HDE at best.

what dice? Dude idek what you're talking about as hardly anything you're mentioning is being discussed in the scans in the OP.

The context is talking about the 8th sense users mind transcneing to a higher dimenional plane that can perceive 4D/5D constructs within the universe/multiverse.

whilst 8th sense users themselves aren't 5D, the planes they're ascending to is Nirvana, The Underworld etc etc

The UW being created and sustained by Hades, should scale him to 5D, the 8th sense only allows the ability to access and perceive those planes.