Common Calc Concern: Evading the punches of other characters

[Jasonsith]

A calc is supposed to be made for something like dodging a projectile, evading something, not dodging a punch or a kick from another character. You don’t have the speed, you’re assuming one. You’re basically making up a feat. There’s nothing to calculate when a character dodges another character’s attack. You just scale them above the other. It’s as simple as that.

This really.

Also, this is yet another reason why I really refrain from accepting multipliers casually: one character overpowering another in one scenario and the other character suddenly make it even again really inflates stats easily.

More likely they are just even - skill issue may apply but even real life sport matches may have a few wins and a few losses from each combatant.

 

[KingTempest]

What if a character has some shit like "I can punch faster than light" but then we calc them having a FTL feat, but then somebody (not relative to them) dodges their attack
Can we not use lightspeed as a baseline for the calc since we accept em FTL?

 

[KLOL506]

What if a character has some shit like "I can punch faster than light" but then we calc them having a FTL feat, but then somebody (not relative to them) dodges their attack
Can we not use lightspeed as a baseline for the calc since we accept em FTL?

If they say they punch faster than light and it is from a reliable-enough source, then instead of using SoL, just use the lowest possible speed above light speed, like 1.1 c or so.

 

[DMUA]

Going off of M3X's earlier writeup of how this should be incorporated onto the pages...

"Refrain from calculating feats based on dodging attacks from other characters at extreme proximity, as this is primarily a trope used to exaggerate a narrow miss rather than a literal representation of overwhelming speed. Taking it at face value is often inconsistent with the battle in which the feat occurs, where the opponents are presented as equals, but the calculation results in them being considered several times faster. This should only be used when the character in question is greatly superior to the one who's attack he is evading and the speed of the attack is concretely stated, such as being able to surpass the speed of sound, or light, or uses a basis in the Real World such as the speed of an athlete's punch. If the two fighters are equal, you should simply scale them to the stated speed of the attack, or off of other feats they perform."

Does anyone have something else they should add, or should we just go ahead and put this on Projectile Dodging Feats/Calculations?

 

[M3X_2.0]

I totally agreee with this.

 

[KLOL506]

This looks fine at a glance.

 

[TheRustyOne]

That looks alright to me as well.

 

[MysticCarnage]

If it contradicts the rating on their profile, yeah.

This makes no sense, if a character can move at hypersonic speeds doesn't mean they will always move at those speeds with every attack, there should be nothing wrong with the use of peak human speeds

 

[M3X_2.0]

I laughed. Nothing from your comment makes sense. Nothing.

 

[M3X_2.0]

If the character isn't always moving at Hypersonic speeds, this should be noted on their profile. If they're not using this Hypersonic speed to attack, there should be context regarding the feat. It's a case by case basis, as we're allowing feats such as a stated speed and if the character is faster than the attacker.

Regarding your example, the character not using his Hypersonic speed to attack doesn't mean you're now allowed to use Peak Human speed. Actually, we're kinda of disregarding this type of feat, since it's not something calculable, and actually a made up feat people found to wank their characters.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I mean, I'm sorry if you used these type of calculations, but from now you won't be allowed anymore. You're free to find any other feats to calculate. We won't go back on this, it's going foward.

@Antvasima what do you think of this draft?

"Refrain from calculating feats based on dodging attacks from other characters at extreme proximity, as this is primarily a trope used to exaggerate a narrow miss rather than a literal representation of overwhelming speed. Taking it at face value is often inconsistent with the battle in which the feat occurs, where the opponents are presented as equals, but the calculation results in them being considered several times faster. This should only be used when the character in question is greatly superior to the one who's attack he is evading and the speed of the attack is concretely stated, such as being able to surpass the speed of sound, or light, or uses a basis in the Real World such as the speed of an athlete's punch. If the two fighters are equal, you should simply scale them to the stated speed of the attack, or off of other feats they perform."

 

[KLOL506]

This makes no sense, if a character can move at hypersonic speeds doesn't mean they will always move at those speeds with every attack, there should be nothing wrong with the use of peak human speeds

If this isn't peak downplaying IDK what the **** is.

If they're not even going all out, it means nobody scales to their peak self. Simple as that.

 

[MysticCarnage]

so then why don't we use hypersonic speeds ? This is a stupid rule to be frank, I was quoting similar to what agnaa said

 

[MysticCarnage]

Fair enough if you think that, but the line we draw for assumptions on these sorts of feats is "something that humans can do". Everything else has to be derived from within that scene itself. So them having Supersonic+ feats elsewhere is irrelevant, in our eyes. They could have half a dozen FTL statements, and in a scene that doesn't have them, we'd assume them to be peak human.

 

[M3X_2.0]

and in a scene that doesn't have them

That's the key. If in the scene they have a stated speed OR they're attacking with something that has a stated speed, it's fine.

 

[Dalesean027]

That's the key. If in the scene they have a stated speed OR they're attacking with something that has a stated speed, it's fine.

And there we have it so like I said @MysticCarnage those Tokyo revengers calcs aren't valid by these standards and use hidden calc stacking as this thread explains too

 

[MysticCarnage]

That's the key. If in the scene they have a stated speed OR they're attacking with something that has a stated speed, it's fine.

"we would assume them to be peak human"

 

[M3X_2.0]

We would not.

 

[Jasonsith]

If they say they punch faster than light and it is from a reliable-enough source, then instead of using SoL, just use the lowest possible speed above light speed, like 1.1 c or so.

A slight FTL say 1.00000...1c would still be considered FTL.

In that case, really assess if the FTL statements are actually standing ground.

Flowery words are dangerous.

We have had existing "peak humans" fighting speeds at references for common feats so we can borrow them if the situations actually apply.

 

[Jasonsith]

This makes no sense, if a character can move at hypersonic speeds doesn't mean they will always move at those speeds with every attack, there should be nothing wrong with the use of peak human speeds

If a person can truly move at hypersonic speeds in a sense it is supported by a calc or a very reliable source, then other power scaling rules apply already. The chains of "likely hypersonic" should go just fine.

 

[MysticCarnage]

If a person can truly move at hypersonic speeds in a sense it is supported by a calc or a very reliable source, then other power scaling rules apply already. The chains of "likely hypersonic" should go just fine.

Wdym ?

 

[Dalesean027]

Wdym ?

Basically if the hypersonic guy is reliably stated to be at those level of mach speeds and or has calculations at those speeds that are supported in the narrative that that character would already be setting a precedent for a scaling chain to scale to hypersonic, so basically you wouldn't be using that guy being hypersonic as precedent to calc new feats from say somone dodging a punch or kick from them

 

[Jasonsith]

Wdym ?

Like how other speed feats and speed scaling rules apply - a character has performed a speed feat, the speed feat calculated, every other comparable characters gets that speed.

Basically if the hypersonic guy is reliably stated to be at those level of mach speeds and or has calculations at those speeds that are supported in the narrative that that character would already be setting a precedent for a scaling chain to scale to hypersonic, so basically you wouldn't be using that guy being hypersonic as precedent to calc new feats from say somone dodging a punch or kick from them

Thanks for further elaborating.







What the OP tries to say however, is the refraining from exaggerating a movement speed on reacting to an attack when "you'll have a character see an attack coming at them from an extreme proximity, before they seem to dodge out of the way last second".

One example I can see, however, comes from cases where a character faces a projectile coming from a distance, then sit duck until the projectile comes close to their face, then reacts "suddenly" with a big distance. And then that big distance relative to the tiny movement of the projectile is used as the basis for calculating the speed feat. Example below:

Jujutsu Kaisen: Mai's Bullet Catch - Super Hyper Enhanced Ultra Cursed Edition

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[MysticCarnage]

who is that in your pfp

 

[DMUA]

One example I can see, however, comes from cases where a character faces a projectile coming from a distance, then sit duck until the projectile comes close to their face, then reacts "suddenly" with a big distance. And then that big distance relative to the tiny movement of the projectile is used as the basis for calculating the speed feat. Example below:

(In this particular feat, she was constantly dodging around and wary of gunfire to the point that the person with the gun making a 6th bullet was supposed to be a game winning move, but her senses and speed were just too sharp to get nailed even by surprise there)

 

[KLOL506]

A slight FTL say 1.00000...1c would still be considered FTL.

True but then people would bring up issues with Supersonic stuff, as that's Mach 1.1 instead of Mach 1.000000001 or similar.

In that case, really assess if the FTL statements are actually standing ground.

Flowery words are dangerous.

Isn't that what the SoL qualifying criteria are for?

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

The more I think about it, the more I agree with the proposal but I still have one question.
@M3X_2.0 @KLOL506

What timeframe are we going to use for blitzes?
What if using 0.2s, 0.13s, 0.1s, 0.08s or 0.029s timeframes contradict their profile?

 

[Dalesean027]

The more I think about it, the more I agree with the proposal but I still have one question.
@M3X_2.0 @KLOL506

What timeframe are we going to use for blitzes?
What if using 0.2s, 0.13s, 0.1s, 0.08s or 0.029s timeframes contradict their profile?

Timeframes like those are still case by case but I'm assuming you're asking in regards to this feat

Izana dashes at Mikey

vsbattles.fandom.com

From the ongoing CRT to remove this calc

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Timeframes like those are still case by case but I'm assuming you're asking in regards to this feat

Izana dashes at Mikey

vsbattles.fandom.com

From the ongoing CRT to remove this calc

No, I'm not asking in regards to that feat, I'm taking about them in general because I'm kinda confused.

 

[M3X_2.0]

That’s not related to this thread.

 

[KLOL506]

What timeframe are we going to use for blitzes?
What if using 0.2s, 0.13s, 0.1s, 0.08s or 0.029s timeframes contradict their profile?

Not what this thread is about. Make another one.

 

[KingTempest]

Real quick

Can we get standards for what values to use for certain calcs?

Cause we have too many different values for dodging punches and such

I've seen calcs with 5 m/s, 7 m/s, 10 m/s, 12 m/s

Can we get a solid value for stuff like that?

On top of that, what'd be the standards for speeds higher than that? If you dodge bullets or see shit in slow motion we still wouldn't accept speeds higher than human for the calcs I'm assuming?

 

[Therefir]

Punching speed can range from 6.7 m/s (Average human) to 11.17 m/s (Professional boxers), up to 14.30 m/s (Peak).

 

[KingTempest]

Punching speed can range from 6.7 m/s (Average human) to 11.17 m/s (Professional boxers), up to 14.30 m/s (Peak).

So what would qualify as a "peak human"

Cause people can get any character in a verse they deem "superhuman" and just say "yes use 14.30 for highest result"

 

[KLOL506]

Real quick

Can we get standards for what values to use for certain calcs?

Cause we have too many different values for dodging punches and such

I've seen calcs with 5 m/s, 7 m/s, 10 m/s, 12 m/s

Can we get a solid value for stuff like that?

On top of that, what'd be the standards for speeds higher than that?

5-7 m/s as per documents would be the average human's peak punching speed.

10-15 m/s would be the average punching speeds of peak boxers, world record being 20 m/s.

EDIT: Therefir ninja'd me, but the values are pretty much around the levels I mentioned.

If you dodge bullets or see shit in slow motion we still wouldn't accept speeds higher than human for the calcs I'm assuming?

We have a method for that. Different rules here tho.

 

[Therefir]

The 20 m/s record wasn't actually a proper punch so I don't recommend using it.

 

[KingTempest]

We have a method for that. Different rules here tho.

Unfortunately it just wouldn't cross over

So if you have a calculated speed on your profile basically you can't be used to calc shit I'm assuming

 

[Therefir]

So what would qualify as a "peak human"

Cause people can get any character in a verse they deem "superhuman" and just say "yes use 14.30 for highest result"

I'm not sure, if they have feats that place them far above even a peak human, why not use those feats instead of assuming a punching speed to get any arbitrary result.

And if it was stated that these characters are peak human, and then a faster character dodges their punches from inches away, I guess one could assume that this character is Superhuman, which is probably better than using peak human speeds to obtain subsonic/supersonic results.

 

[KLOL506]

Unfortunately it just wouldn't cross over

So if you have a calculated speed on your profile basically you can't be used to calc shit I'm assuming

No idea what you're talking about here TBF.

The slow-mo calculator is for time dilation related shit. It's mostly for viewing other stuff with stated speeds in slow-mo and getting your own speed out of it.

For example, a light beam, travelling at 299,792,458 m/s.

But you view it as slower than a snail, aka as standing still, 0.00275 m/s.

While you yourself, in the perspective of the viewer, are jogging at the average 6-7 m/s (6.5 average) while the light doesn't move at all.

True Speed of Character = (True Speed of Projectile/Percepted Speed of Projectile) * Percepted Speed of Character

True Speed = (299792458 / 0.00275) * 6.5 = 7.08600355273e+11 m/s or 2,363.634 times FTL (MFTL+).

But you are right, you can't use this speed for other calcs, because duh, calc stacking.

 

[KingTempest]

I'm not sure, if they have feats that place them far above even a peak human, why not use those feats instead of assuming a punching speed to get any arbitrary result.

Calc stacking my guy

And if it was stated that these characters are peak human, and then a faster character dodges their punches from inches away, I guess one could assume that this character is Superhuman, which is probably better than using peak human speeds to obtain subsonic/supersonic results.

Gotcha

No idea what you're talking about here TBF.

But you are right, you can't use this speed for other calcs, because duh, calck stacking.

This is what I'm saying
Regardless of whatever feats they got, even if it's something like moving around things in slow motion and such, can't use it in another calc