Cirno upgrade for the Cirno day

[QuasiYuri]

Except of being the ultimate genius and the strongest, Cirno should be higher than 6-C.

While Cirno is considered to be weak, she has feats which can help her to scale to others characters of the series (to a lower extend).

First, she fight a non-full power Marisa in the extra stage of Fairy Wars. Even if Cirno "lost" the battle, Marisa was impressed and think that even with her full power laser, a fight with Cirno will be close.

In Phantasmagoria of the Flower View, she fight a majority of the main cast. But there is also her final fight against Eiki in her final episode, when she said that Cirno has more power than her original power of nature, and that she hold too much power

In Hisoutensoku, she defeat Sanae (even if she said that becauseshe have take her too lighty). She also have little fights with Marisa and Meiling. Later Utsuho try to exterminate Cirno, even if Cirno was forced to ran away, she dodge Utsuho attacks and tank some of them (it's also implied in her quotes). At last, she fight Alice and her Goliath Doll , she should at least scale to the doll, since she canonically defeat her.

She should scale to them both in AP, durability, and speed.

She also have some powers which aren't of her profile:

As a fairy, she can "make the seasons gone wild" by going berserk . Also she is already beyond "fairy limit", so she should be able to use it in base.

Fairies also have a sort of invisibility, because "Not just Cirno's, but all fairies' homes blend into nature, preventing them from being seen by humans." (said in Perfect Memento in Strict Sense).

Regular danmaku and Freeze Sign "Freeze Atmosphere" (which use frozen particles) should give her Energy Projection.

She should also have a other thing for her type 8 immortality, reliant to her Motivation, like in the Great Fairy Wars.

She also should have Resistance to Mind Manipulation in base because of not be affected by the true moon and a resistance to power nullification in her tanned form because Narumi can't cancel her powers.


So, the change are:

High 4-C Cirno (to a lower extend than others characters)

MFTL+ speed confirmed for her.

And Seasons Manipulation (?), Invisibility, Energy Projection, another type 8 immortality, and Resistance to Mind Manipulation as well a Resistance to Power Nullification in her tanned form.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Bump.

 

[Kirbyelmejor]

This seems fine for me

 

[Antvasima]

You can check the following pages for people to ask to comment here: Knowledgeable Members List, Touhou Project

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Sorry, but no.

Everything that you mentioned for the AP is either way too vague or reliant on Spell Card scaling. And the very idea of Spell Cards Rules is to allow characters from far different weight classes fight each other. Ignoring that just breaks the entire scaling.

Moreover, a fairy being anywhere near this strong would also make no sense lore-wise, with the only two fairies possibly being Tier 4 are either amped really hard (Clownpiece) or not actually fairies (Eternity Larva). It doesn't help that putting Cinro at High 4-C would also break our current scaling hard, since everyone is currently scaled from her.

As for the rest...

-This is just something fairies do accidentally when in group. It's really just an extension of her normal ice powers.

-I wouldn't say this is invisibility. There is certainly some form of trickery involved with fairy homes, but currently, it's too vague to put a power in.

-I don't see how freezing particles is energy manipulation. Even then, those "particles" are really just chunks of ice, as shown in the Spell Card itself.

-Not how it works. This is literally just her being motivated or not to keep going. Presumably, her actual immortality in-game is her normal Type 8.

-Was she ever exposed to the True Moon? She wasn't there in IN, so I don't think so. As for Resistance to Power Nullification, it's not that she outright resisted her, it's just that she ran on a different power source than the usual fairy lifeforce, so she couldn't completely nullify her.

I feel bad for doing this on 9/9, but I'm afraid that nearly none of this is legit.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Spell Card Battle are use as a limit of time, and everyone is scale to everyone even with this. Spell Card battle were also created for not giving natural avantage than really make this equal. The High 4-C feat is also a Spell Card and is still use.

And Cirno is constantly said beyond the power of fairy, by books, Marisa, or even Eiki. Ignore this and doesn't make her upgrade because of others fairies make even more no-sense.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Saikou seems to make sense.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Spell Cards have never been used to scale anything to anyone, and we certainly won't start here.

I get what you're saying by "The High 4-C feat was a Spell Card feat, so anyone should be able to scale to it". However, I gave up on that idea, since it would result in rather ridiculous scaling, like this one right here.

She's just stronger than most fairies, not trillions of times stronger. Almost no one treats her like an actual threat on the level of the High 4-C people. Youkai far weaker than High 4-C are treated more seriously than Cirno ever will be.

 

[QuasiYuri]

The only thing making En'enra 6-C is scaling.

And character like Youmu are scale juste because "should be comparable" when she only fight in spell card battle.

For the High 4-C thing, it's more that it's a thing use in spell card battle, so I don't see why tank attack from others shouldn't make a scale. Marisa is also one of the only character which based her danmaku on power.

And I don't really see why a High 4-C couldn't be far weaker than a other High 4-C, profiles with things like this aren't inexistant (like 3-A be far weaker than another 3-A, or a Low 2-C being far weaker than another Low 2-C). And the majority of her feat aren't really contradict, just make her weaker.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Ngl, "Possibly High 4-C" seems like the only possible definitive upgrade for Cirno's Tanned form and maybe even Eternity at her prime since Cirno still did the same feats as the other main characters in 16 while still being obviously weaker than them but still at least being somewhat comparable to them even with the spellcard rules on.


I can't really truly accept her as a true High 4-C since 16 is probably the only game we'll probably ever see Cirno in her Tanned form do some feats (albeit not much aside from Okina and her servents) unless ZUN makes another Fairy Wars game with her facing even stronger foes.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Ngl, "possibly High 4-C" seems like the only possible definitive upgrade for Cirno's Tanned form and maybe even Eternity at her prime since Cirno still did the same feats as the other main characters in 16 while still being obviously weaker than them but still at least being somewhat comparable to them even with the spellcard rules on.

I can't really truly accept her as a true High 4-C since 16 is probably the only game we'll probably ever see Cirno in her Tanned form do some feats (albeit not much aside from Okina and her servents) unless ZUN makes another Fairy Wars game with her facing even stronger foes.

All the High 4-C feats shown by Cirno are for her Base. The opponents that she faced in 16 just test her.

 

[Not_Icarus]

I don't really know if we can count her Touhou 9 feats considering they're probably non-canon since the other playable characters pretty much did the same things in the end.


12.3 is a bit tricky since there's only 3 characters playable in the game's story mode. It would definitely be canon for Cirno if it wasn't for Sanae's story run ruining Cirno's run.

 

[QuasiYuri]

We use feats of all routes for what I have seen (the IN feat of stopping night, which depend of the character route, for exemple).

But since the games (except PC-98) are canon, I think it's still usable feats.

 

[Not_Icarus]

PC-98 canon versions of the 2hus in the site are pretty much different characters considering they are vastly more powerful than their windows canon counterparts thus giving them a different key in their character pages like how we have different keys for legends and canon star wars characters like Dart Vader.


Also Toeiverse DBZ characters (aside from GT) don't have their own pages here so there's that.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Repeating myself: Beating someone in a Spell Card fight is NOT a feat, except for potentially skill. Doing this is just breaking the scaling.

 

[Antvasima]

So should we close this thread?

 

[QuasiYuri]

Youmu feats are all by spell card, and she's scale.

Also Spell Card battle are like, just fight with time limit and being loyal.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Okay then. Reimu is 3-A via beating Hecatia. And Cirno is too because she beat Marisa, who fought Reimu. See where this is going?

Literally anyone can fight anyone with Spell Cards. Did you even read about Spell Cards or..? Because it's just skills. Being strong or not does not matter at all. That's the whole goddamn point.

Just read this.

 

[QuasiYuri]

"Who's deciding what's "graceful" or not? And what do the humans think is "grace" is, for that matter? Are they having a beauty contest or something? It sounds like so much fun." "Er, I think my explanation was a little poor. Gracefully, as in not using dirty tricks and such..."

The "beautiful part" is just not using dirty tricks, the base off a spell card is stil the "dodge your opponent of being crushed". The thing which is different is just that you can dodge and wait time limit ("The first party to have all their spell cards beaten must admit defeat) + being loyal make you win.

Fighting opponent CAN make you scale, but win doesn't mean your stronger ("In the case that a combatant loses a named duel, that combatant will admit defeat, even if he or she has strength remaining.").

Also: "Combatants may not deliver attacks that do not have meaning." "The meaning itself becomes the attack's power."

It's not because being the strongest doesn't make you instant-win that power can't have part of responsability in this.