Characters who (possibly) scale to Gogeta Blue

[Antvasima]

Has this change been applied?

 

[Mulgara]

Why are you diverting the topic in question? We are not talking about Ikari Broly since he was not in that state, and nothing familiar proves he was in that state.

We can prove that he was in SSJ Grade 3 state since Broly drained back to his base form and that he was losing speed in the fight (this is reinforced when Broly fails to "keep up" with Gogeta later on in the fight, but manages to tank more of his attacks, and this is reminiscent of the SSJ Grade 3 state).

To state that he was in his Ikari state is ambigious and out of question.

He was in that stated cause Broly super saiyan stacked on top of his ikari power -.- where did you think his size and aura comes from

And Great Ape is explicitly indicated in the movie and shown in Dragonball to grow stronger but not faster on the same ratio.

You can be stronger but slower than someone and still get beaten. Likewise you can be stronger but slower than someone and beat them.

Broly is shown in at least two scenes as weakened in some sense. The Novel also describes the Resolute Explosion thing as exploding Broly's Ki, which significantly impacted his Ki and Stamina such that he was huffing and puffing after it, and the final scene shows him coming out of SSJ.

I didn't say it's Grade 3, but it is shown employing the same priciple as the Grade 3.

 

[ProudLearner]

@AKM Sama

I know I have suggested this the past CRT but would it be reasonable for this characters to have the same rating:

All GoD (Exempt Toppo), MUI Goku, BUW Jiren, FPSJ Broly, SSJ Blue Gogeta should have their AP/Durability/etc change to At Least Low-2C

Since two GoD's can destroy 2 universes in joint feat their AP/Durability/etc should be At Least Low 2-C.

Jiren was confirmed to be stronger than a GoD and MUI Goku was somewhat on par with him.

FPSSJ Broly is possibly stronger than Beerus stated by Goku and Gogeta Blue bullied him.

All these characters need their AP/Durability/etc change to At Least Low-2C since they are close to be 2-C.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody politely ask AKM to comment here again via his message wall please?

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

I've messaged him again.

 

[Antvasima]

Thanks.

 

[AKM sama]

I don't think "At least" is required. We only use it in cases where the feat is very vague, the exact value is not known and we have to use a sensible lower cap. In this case, we quite clearly reject their 2-C ratings due to not having an individual 2-C feat and the scaling isn't remotely enough significant to cause any doubts about it, by virtue of going with the low end as the safest option.

Anything lower than a 2-C is a solid Low 2-C and we're completely sure that they're not 2-C. So there's no question of using "At least". Just Low 2-C is enough.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Quite a lot of Dragon Ball profiles need to be updated in that case though.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

Depends on whetever or not the Angels will still be considered as being stronger than two GoD's at the same time.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that they should be, yes.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

Then in that case they would probably remain 2-C for now.

Only Gogeta's 2-C key would be removed.

 

[Mulgara]

@AKM Sama

I know I have suggested this the past CRT but would it be reasonable for this characters to have the same rating:

All GoD (Exempt Toppo), MUI Goku, BUW Jiren, FPSJ Broly, SSJ Blue Gogeta should have their AP/Durability/etc change to At Least Low-2C

Since two GoD's can destroy 2 universes in joint feat their AP/Durability/etc should be At Least Low 2-C.

Jiren was confirmed to be stronger than a GoD and MUI Goku was somewhat on par with him.

FPSSJ Broly is possibly stronger than Beerus stated by Goku and Gogeta Blue bullied him.

All these characters need their AP/Durability/etc change to At Least Low-2C since they are close to be 2-C.

Why is Broly being possibly stronger than Beerus here, when he is not?

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

Probably because Goku himself, who has already been at the level of the gods, stated that Broly "might" be even stronger than Beerus

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Probably because Goku himself, who has already been at the level of the gods, stated that Broly "might" be even stronger than Beerus

• Probably actually.

 

[Mulgara]

Probably because Goku himself, who has already been at the level of the gods, stated that Broly "might" be even stronger than Beerus

Thats not a reason why he declared Broly's power as being greater. Goku poorly judged Beerus's power based on his ignorance.

 

[Shubham_Sonsurkar]

I mean during their first fight when Beerus lied that he is using 70% of his power. Goku actually believed it

 

[Mr_John_West]

Goku saw Beerus go all out in the manga

He saw Beerus and Champa fight in a bloody battle in the anime until Whis and Vados stopped them

Goku also fought Jiren was who at the level of the Gods and he himself has reached that stated.

So no more bullshit, he knows what's going on with Beerus

 

[PridedWaif]

UI Goku literally beat UBW Jiren without getting angry before getting angry. I don't know why everyone always forget that. Jiren took 2 Ls back to back after he outsmarted and overpowered UI Goku in that one given instance in anime.

Also, manga Jiren didn't even lose to UI Goku. He actually knocked him out of it and his body gave up, but he did at least weaken him. His power kept on increasing and was stated to be immeasurable by Whis. Vegeta state that it doesn't matter if Jiren use an insane amount of energy, he just keep on coming back with even more. That's when Jiren says he has no limits, continues to release more power.

In fact, manga Jiren was never going to lose even though Goku had got UI, that was just their best chances of winning, but Jiren kept increasing and unleashing more power, while Goku UI started taking a toll. If it weren't for Frieza and 17 planning a precaution strategy, diverting his attention, they'd have lost. Even in Jiren weakest state they were still gnants to him.

Just replying to some points from earlier.

 

[Mr_John_West]

UI Goku literally beat UBW Jiren without getting angry before getting angry. I don't know why everyone always forget that. Jiren took 2 Ls back to back after he outsmarted and overpowered UI Goku in that one given instance in anime.
Also, manga Jiren didn't even lose to UI Goku. He actually knocked him out of it and his body gave up, but he did at least weaken him. His power kept on increasing and was stated to be immeasurable by Whis. Vegeta state that it doesn't matter if Jiren use an insane amount of energy, he just keep on coming back with even more. That's when Jiren says he has no limits, continues to release more power.

In fact, manga Jiren was never going to lose even though Goku had got UI, that was just their best chances of winning, but Jiren kept increasing and unleashing more power, while Goku UI started taking a toll. If it weren't for Frieza and 17 planning a precaution strategy, diverting his attention, they'd have lost. Even in Jiren weakest state they were still gnants to him.

Just replying to some points from earlier.

Manga Jiren never increased his power, he simply countered faster and burnt out his stamina in trying to keep up with UI

 

[PridedWaif]

Manga Jiren never increased his power, he simply countered faster and burnt out his stamina in trying to keep up with UI

Lol please Re-read the manga. It's literally shown with each panel he continuously kept increasing his Ki and he never burnt out his stamina. That was just Beerus stating will he do so before Goku UI give out, which didn't happen. Yes, he was countering out of sheer determination, that sheer determination is what further pushed and increase his Ki which is shown twice, which is also 1/3rd of increasing your Ki anyhow.

 

[Antvasima]

Then in that case they would probably remain 2-C for now.

Only Gogeta's 2-C key would be removed.

Are other staff members here willing to handle this?

 

[Mr_John_West]

Manga Jiren never increased his power, he simply countered faster and burnt out his stamina in trying to keep up with UI

Lol please Re-read the manga. It's literally shown with each panel he continuously kept increasing his Ki and he never burnt out his stamina. That was just Beerus stating will he do so before Goku UI give out, which didn't happen. Yes, he was countering out of sheer determination, that sheer determination is what further pushed and increase his Ki which is shown twice, which is also 1/3rd of increasing your Ki anyhow.

Head canon, never was it said he was increasing his Ki. He was getting beaten up by UI Goku, then he started countering through sheer determination and burnt himself out from it.

 

[RashFaustinho]

Quick question regarding more-or-less the same topic.

Wasn't Vegito definited to be "maybe" stronger than Beerus by Shin?

Shouldn't he be low 2-C as well or, at the very least, "at least low 2-C during Final Kamehameha"?

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

That was stated in the manga, which is treated as a different canon here. That would scale to a hypothetical Vegito Manga profile.

He also wouldn't be Low 2-C, seeing as Beerus himself isn't that level in the manga.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

On another note, these things would also have to be removed in Gogeta's profile:

Note: Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta is far superior to Super Saiyan Broly (Full Power) who is probably stronger than Beerus, which makes it a possibility that SSB Gogeta could match the combined strength of Beerus and Champa (i.e. twice the strength of Beerus), which can destroy 2 universes.

And:

Victories:

Sonic the Hedgehog (Sonic: The Comic) Sonic's Profile(Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta and Super Sonic powered by the Chaos Emeralds were used, and speed was equalized)

Ultron-Sigma (Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite) Ultron-Sigma's profile (Both are Baseline 2-C. Speed is Equalized.)

Since Gogeta won't have a 2-C key anymore, those victories would be nullified.

 

[RashFaustinho]

That was stated in the manga, which is treated as a different canon here. That would scale to a hypothetical Vegito Manga profile.
He also wouldn't be Low 2-C, seeing as Beerus himself isn't that level in the manga.

Oh, right.

That's confusing, though, because in the case of Blue Gogeta, the "possibly 2-C" rating has been given due to the fact that in Toyotaro's manga, when two Gods clash, they destroy two universes.

What's the standard here regarding the continuity of DBS Broly then? Is he placed after the manga, after the anime, or after both?

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

Actually the whole "destroying two universes" when GoD's fight also appears in the anime multiple times, mostly by Vados (However it isn't clear on whenever it is because their clash destroys them, or if Zeno himself destroys them as punishment.)

 

[RashFaustinho]

Well, if it isn't clear than that means there is no clear evidence of that happening. The 2-C Gogeta is (mostly) based off the manga event.

I never agreed in the first place to place in Gogeta in a high tier such as 2-C (even "possibly"), when the discussion about his very first upgrade took place (the one that gave him the "possibly" 2-C) I was against it, mainly because it was mostly an assumption based on the fact that since Gogeta stomped Broly, "he's likely twice as strong as Beerus". To which I'm against, because Dragon Ball demonstrated multiple times to be incredibly inconsistent with multipliers and/or stomps

Since what's proposed here is to change MUI Goku and Jiren to "At least low 2-C", shouldn't Gogeta fall into "At least low 2-C" (and not possibly 2-C) due to same reasoning?

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

AKM sama has also disagreed with "At least Low 2-C" as well however, so what is being discussed now is too simply downgrade Gogeta to Low 2-C in his Super Saiyan Blue form.

 

[PridedWaif]

Manga Jiren never increased his power, he simply countered faster and burnt out his stamina in trying to keep up with UI
Lol please Re-read the manga. It's literally shown with each panel he continuously kept increasing his Ki and he never burnt out his stamina. That was just Beerus stating will he do so before Goku UI give out, which didn't happen. Yes, he was countering out of sheer determination, that sheer determination is what further pushed and increase his Ki which is shown twice, which is also 1/3rd of increasing your Ki anyhow.

Head canon, never was it said he was increasing his Ki. He was getting beaten up by UI Goku, then he started countering through sheer determination and burnt himself out from it.

HeadCanon is something being made up without substantial evidence. We're shown Jiren increasing his Ki throughout the chapter of 41. Him countering with sheer determination IS him increasing his Ki levels with sheer will power. Don't need to spoon feed you to know he is literally increasing the output of his energy and his Ki spiked higher than previously (which actually was stated). This is just incredulous.

 

[RashFaustinho]

If that's the case, I totall agree to downgrading him to simple Low 2-C.

The reasoning behind his "possible" 2-C is based off assumptions, and also based on a manga event, to which we aren't 100% sure it even happened in the continuity of DBS Broly.

The anime doesn't dispute that fact, but this wiki clearly has different pages to differentiate anime and toei versions, so the two gods destroying two universes shouldn't apply outside of Toyotaro's manga.

 

[PridedWaif]

Oh, right.

That's confusing, though, because in the case of Blue Gogeta, the "possibly 2-C" rating has been given due to the fact that in Toyotaro's manga, when two Gods clash, they destroy two universes.

What's the standard here regarding the continuity of DBS Broly then? Is he placed after the manga, after the anime, or after both?

When two God's clash they destroy 2 universes casually is a lore statement. It's in both anime and manga.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

Rash, if you want to discuss the fact that the whole "destroying two universes" statement is manga only, then you should probably make a thread about it later on, because that would downgrade the Angels back to Low 2-C.

As for now, the only thing left is to remove Gogeta's 2-C.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

Antvasima, I am totally willing to apply these changes if you would unlock the page.

 

[PridedWaif]

Rash, if you want to discuss the fact that the whole "destroying two universes" statement is manga only, then you should probably make a thread about it later on, because that would downgrade the Angels back to Low 2-C.

As for now, the only thing left is to remove Gogeta's 2-C.

What? This doesn't make sense. Did no one here watch the anime or something? They literally stopped Beerus and Champa casually trading blows, because they were going to destroy both universes.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

I know, Prided, however if he wishes to make the case that it only applies to the manga, then he should do it on a separate thread.

I still think the Angels are 2-C

 

[RashFaustinho]

Rash, if you want to discuss the fact that the whole "destroying two universes" statement is manga only, then you should probably make a thread about it later on, because that would downgrade the Angels back to Low 2-C.
As for now, the only thing left is to remove Gogeta's 2-C.

I don't necessarily want that, also that would be illogical, what I'm saying is that the various characters profiles pages are inconsistent when it comes to considering the continuity of DBS.

For which reason the Whis page can take statements from both the manga and the anime, but the Vegito page cannot take the "maybe he surpassed Beerus" thing?

This is why I asked about the continuity.

 

[PridedWaif]

I know, Prided, however if he wishes to make the case that it only applies to the manga, then he should do it on a separate thread.

I still think the Angels are 2-C

Oh ok, that's true.

 

[PridedWaif]

I don't necessarily want that, also that would be illogical, what I'm saying is that the various characters profiles pages are inconsistent when it comes to considering the continuity of DBS.

For which reason the Whis page can take statements from both the manga and the anime, but the Vegito page cannot take the "maybe he surpassed Beerus" thing?

This is why I asked about the continuity.

It was coming from Shin. Shin is ignorant to Beerus full power, he only was gauging based off what Beerus has displayed. I assume they only apply things if it's said in both anime and manga. It was never mentioned in anime. Therefore, it wouldn't be applied.

 

[Antvasima]

Antvasima, I am totally willing to apply these changes if you would unlock the page.

I will unlock Gogeta (Dragon Ball Super). Tell me here when you are done.