Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,184
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I disagree with it. In Dragon Ball where characters can punch, block and physically push back ki attacks all the time, it's very obvious it scales to physical stats
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Cell is getting nerfed. (Dragon Ball)
- Thread starter Nullflowerblush
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Vietthai96
He/Him- 9,231
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Didn't you want me to prove Ki being UES, because if Ki isn't UES, assume that what you currently thinking, then most feat isn't scale to their physical stats either, Frieza destroyed Planet Vegeta with a Ki Ball, Cell with his Kamehameha, Buu his Ki attack, Vegeta with his Galick Gun. Punchs and Kicks in DBZ is.......at best, mountain level
Yet again the thing is, despite the claim that ki beam > their usual stats, which i can understand, especially in Raditz Saga where we have power level to measure, in later saga however, despite such claim we still see they constantly perform ki beam, which require user constantly release their ki to keep the beam going on for beam struggling. We know that the ampunt of Ki one have = their physical power, if they can constantly release such amount of ki outward to keep the beam struggling going on, that mean they can well have the same amount of ki equal to the power of the beam itself, which in turn scale to their physical stats since their body can release such amount of ki
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The OP of the thread clearly isn't proposing that be removed.
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Damn, I was planning on doing this thread, sad
Vietthai96
He/Him- 9,231
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Anyway, i need to retire myself for now because need to do some other things, my PC is busted so comment on phone is a pain and i can't even post scans
Vietthai96
He/Him- 9,231
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We didn't abusing, it literally what basic requirement for UES is being able to boost physical stats, assume otherwise mean completely destroy the premise and narrative of the verse, which mean assuming that Ki can't boost physical stats
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,184
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Then why wouldn't they scale to their own attacks? Cell would be 4-B also for breaking Gohan's arm with a ki blast then, and he would have no reason to not scale to the Solar Kamehameha, and the same applies to Gohan
The premise either doesn't make any logical sense, or that it really does wants to separate ki attacks from physicals even if you say it doesn't
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Roshi doesn't scale to the MAX Kamehameha, don't see why Cell and Gohan would
Serlock_Holmes
He/Him- 3,651
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And that's the problem with it. He should have been that high but noone gave any input on that.
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,184
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Because Cell and Gohan directly pushed back against each others' Kamehamehas? And also Roshi not scaling is also stupid. Either they all scale to their ki attack or none of them do
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How about, they should only scale if they have evidence for scaling? Or is that too radical?
Serlock_Holmes
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Yeah that's my case also Vegeta eating a kaioken kamehameha and a galick gun to the face and still surviving without too much issue.
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Okay? Gohan and Cell's Kamehameha would scale to each other, still doesn't mean their base powers would
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,184
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Yeah, it is because it's consistently shown in the series they scale to their own ki attacks, and even in Gohan and Cell's case, they directly pushed against each other with their attacks
Serlock_Holmes
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Also the fact that multiple times the release of energy changed means that they still introduced more ki midway.
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They pushed back against each other... with their Kamehameha's.... That's part of what is being proposed.
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Do you think Vegeta scales to his Final Flash too? The Final Flash that blew a hole through a Perfect Cell who Vegeta was completely inferior to?
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That attack isn't even put at Solar System level on this website...?
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,184
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Cell was literally underestimating Vegeta's Final Flash and barely even tried to defend himself, only realizing in the last second he should try and dodge
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Not sure how that changes anything.
It damaged somebody that was far above Vegeta's physicals.
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That Cell wasn't 4-B
Serlock_Holmes
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It was pre Zenkai cell.
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I realized this after making the post, but to be fair the person said Perfect Cell so I assumed I had misremembered that attack Vegeta did on Perfect Cell since it's been a hot minute since I've seen the Cell Saga.
Serlock_Holmes
He/Him- 3,651
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Because Cell wasn't taking it seriously and Vegeta was putting as much Ki as Saiyanly possible? We have the Goku vs Vegeta fight shy is that even a question? Was Vegeta not using his all there? He should have died instantly using the logic suggested here.
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Dragon Ball characters go down in durability significantly when caught off guard or they don't attempt to defend themselves. Vegeta could be damaged by Krillin in the Namek Saga using this same principal.
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Except, again, Cell was clearly caught off guard. If Cell was actually trying to defend himself the Final Flash probably wouldn't have damaged him.
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He wasn't off-guard. He was watching Vegeta charge it.
Recognizing that it was dangerous at the last minute isn't the same as being caught off-guard.
Serlock_Holmes
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It made him stronger than what he was physically using less ki...
Again Vegeta taking a double attack in the face after gathering all his ki for it pretty much stops the argument dead and due to the way Ki works it can be applied to anyone who uses it. Cell died because Gohan's attack was just that much stronger.
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It kinda is. He was caught off-guard by how strong it was and wasn't able to defend himself accordingly.
Serlock_Holmes
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He literally has regeneration. He didn't give a shit about it.
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Gohan's own Kamehameha was while he had a broken arm and had already lost half of his overall power. You can make an argument for Cell not fully scaling I guess, but Gohan without a broken arm at full strength very likely could perform an attack like that with significantly greater ease.
Not to mention most attacks that are far, far above a character's usual capabilities will usually come with some sort of drawback, such as Self-Destructs and the Tri-Beam damaging the user. Gohan and Cell should probably be able to at the very least downscale from their own Kamehamehas.
Not to mention most attacks that are far, far above a character's usual capabilities will usually come with some sort of drawback, such as Self-Destructs and the Tri-Beam damaging the user. Gohan and Cell should probably be able to at the very least downscale from their own Kamehamehas.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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He literally didn't defend himself at all. He was definitely caught off guard
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We both know this is completely false. Don't get me wrong, I agree with most of your points, but Cell did have something of an "Oh shit" moment. But if anything, this is more proof the attack was stronger than he thought it was, proving more he was caught off guard.
Serlock_Holmes
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He had an oh shit moment because he didn't believe the beam would be that high. But was he actually anxious? Given he can regenerate from even his self destruction I don't think so. I don't remember if he knew how powerful his regen is though.
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Well yeah. Final Flash is stronger than Vegeta's physicals, that much is obvious. But it's not so much stronger that Vegeta's physicals can't downscale.
Serlock_Holmes
He/Him- 3,651
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Yes... because none was charged with more ki. I don't understand what you are trying so say though. Can their defence scale to their best attack? Yes yes it can. Are they always at that state of ki defence? No they are not. Someone correct me if that's not the problem there. Like Frieza survived the Spirit Bomb which swallowed his attack. He survived the clash with Goku despite losing the clash. Vegeta survived the clash with goku despite losing it.
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