Cell is getting nerfed. (Dragon Ball)

[Serlock_Holmes]

Of course their ordinary attacks wouldn't scale, because they are not always fighting at full capacity of they own ki.

The best solution for both would be something like: "4-B", higher at full power/ using Kamehameha for all physical stats and AP.

Yeah I agree with that.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Of course their ordinary attacks wouldn't scale, because they are not always fighting at full capacity of they own ki.

Cell has literally zero reason to be fighting below full strength against Gohan.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

That, and again, Goku's full power was 416.
And, like, the Galick Gun vs. x3 Kaio-ken Kamehameha.
Or Goku vs. Fusion Zamasu.
Or the Instant Kamehameha.

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

Cell has literally zero reason to be fighting below full strength against Gohan.

I do not see how is this relevant to my that specific reply.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

That, and again, Goku's full power was 416.
And, like, the Galick Gun vs. x3 Kaio-ken Kamehameha.
Or Goku vs. Fusion Zamasu.
Or the Instant Kamehameha.

Do we have anything to prove that Goku has that much power in total and not base? Don't remember the fight well.

Also what about galick gun vs kamehameha? The fact that Vegeta actually survived is proof that they can take their own best attacks.

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

That, and again, Goku's full power was 416.
And, like, the Galick Gun vs. x3 Kaio-ken Kamehameha.
Or Goku vs. Fusion Zamasu.
Or the Instant Kamehameha.

Base power, not full power, the fact that he can materialize is own internal energy has ki waves attack debunks this notion.
Amped beyond base power
Amped beyond base power
Amped beyond base power

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Amped beyond base power
Amped beyond base power
Amped beyond base power

You catch on quick.

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

You catch on quick.

There was nothing to catch. There is a different between their base vs their actual full power/capacity.

 

[KLOL506]

I disagree with the premise of this thread for Serlock's reasons.

@DarkDragonMedeus @Therefir @AKM sama @UchihaSlayer96 @DemonGodMitchAubin @CloverDragon03 @Vietthai96 @Gilad_Hyperstar Your evaluations here would be helpful.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Right, but what does this have to do with Goku's Power Level shown to be increasing exponentially as he generates his Kamehameha, and Raditz explicitly pointing out Goku concentrating all of his Ki into a single point as the cause? Yes, obviously one's full power and their power holding back is going to be different, but the act of focusing that Ki into a point is stated to increase the strength of an attack well beyond its limits.

 

[Damage3245]

Right, but what does this have to do with Goku's Power Level shown to be increasing exponentially as he generates his Kamehameha, and Raditz explicitly pointing out Goku concentrating all of his Ki into a single point as the cause? Yes, obviously one's full power and their power holding back is going to be different, but the act of focusing that Ki into a point is stated to increase the strength of an attack well beyond its limits.

Yeah. Nobody has shown here that "powering up to full power" and "concentrating energy with the Kamehameha" are exactly the same amp.

 

[Stefano4444]

The best solution for both would be something like: "4-B", higher at full power/ using Kamehameha for all physical stats and AP.

Agree with this.

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

Right, but what does this have to do with Goku's Power Level shown to be increasing exponentially as he generates his Kamehameha, and Raditz explicitly pointing out Goku concentrating all of his Ki into a single point as the cause? Yes, obviously one's full power and their power holding back is going to be different, but the act of focusing that Ki into a point is stated to increase the strength of an attack well beyond its limits.

We are going in circles.

When their power level/ battle power increases its because they are increase their own ki. You realize their battle power can increase without the need of focusing ki into a single point?

Goku/Piccolo simply removing their weights did increase their battle power. Going with for example with gohan and krillin emitting ki increases their battle power.

Yeah. Nobody has shown here that "powering up to full power" and "concentrating energy with the Kamehameha" are exactly the same amp.

The same energy they use as their UES system to performs feats is the The same energy they use to amp their physical stats proven in accordance to the UES page. So your above comment is nonsense.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

We are going in circles.

When their power level/ battle power increases its because they are increase their own ki. You realize their battle power can increase without the need of focusing ki into a single point?

Goku/Piccolo simply removing their weights did increase their battle power. Going with for example with gohan and krillin emitting ki increases their battle power.

Yes, obviously they can ******* manually control their power. This has been a concept even as far back as the Saiyan Saga.

That has nothing to do with the fact that Raditz states that Goku's Power Level rose and rose because he focused his Ki into his hands, felt the need to evade the Kamehameha and needed to actively prepare his body to defend against its strength, and was ultimately killed by the Special Beam Cannon despite effortlessly dogwalking Goku and Piccolo before and after.

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

Yes, obviously they can ******* manually control their power. This has been a concept even as far back as the Saiyan Saga.

That has nothing to do with the fact that Raditz states that Goku's Power Level rose and rose because he focused his Ki into his hands, felt the need to evade the Kamehameha and needed to actively prepare his body to defend against its strength, and was ultimately killed by the Special Beam Cannon despite effortlessly dogwalking Goku and Piccolo before and after.

Good for yourself that you know they can manipulate their own ki at will.

Once again, it has everything to do with it. His battle power would rose because he his increasing his ki in comparison to his base, ITS NOT THE ONLY WAY TO INCREASE YOUR BATTLE POWER. The Kamehameha from goku was never gonna do anything against raditz, he caught it easily , and goku was surprised by it, stating "what is he made of". The fact it did no damage should already put this into the right track. Nothing you have presented prove anything besides they can increase their ki. This is going in circles, with nothing of value.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Yes, obviously they can ******* manually control their power. This has been a concept even as far back as the Saiyan Saga.

That has nothing to do with the fact that Raditz states that Goku's Power Level rose and rose because he focused his Ki into his hands, felt the need to evade the Kamehameha and needed to actively prepare his body to defend against its strength, and was ultimately killed by the Special Beam Cannon despite effortlessly dogwalking Goku and Piccolo before and after.

All these show that the gap between the two and Raditz wasn't drastic enough that they could do nothing to him and also that Raditz wasn't as adept as Goku and Piccolo at using his own power and couldn't either use it to attack or defend effectively. That's why while he was shown using ki blasts he was surprised by the focusing of powers because he can't use ki beyond a basic level. Also he still caught the kamehameha with barely a problem he just didn't want to let an attack land of him for no reason.

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

All these show that the gap between the two and Raditz wasn't drastic enough that they could do nothing to him and also that Raditz wasn't as adept as Goku and Piccolo at using his own power and couldn't either use it to attack or defend effectively. That's why while he was shown using ki blasts he was surprised by the focusing of powers because he can't use ki beyond a basic level.

I mean, he himself admitted he wasn't fighting them at full power and could increase the power of his own attacks.

And to be able to fly (which he can), requires full control of the internal flow of your own ki at will. And the Kamehameha wave is a basic move that those who can control their own ki can simply do.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I mean, he himself admitted he wasn't fighting them at full power and could increase the power of his own attacks.

And to be able to fly (which he can), requires full control of the internal flow of your own ki at will.

I mean flying seems to be something everyone can do. It's only a special thing on Db era Earth as even random frieza soldiers can fly but noone had comparable ki control to the Z fighters in the Saiyan and Frieza saga. That's also why Raditz was shocked they can focus Ki selectively on a body part namely the hands and Piccolo's fingers.

As for him increasing the power of his attacks that means he can fight harder or in a more laidback manner but can't exactly use it to the fullest potential like Picoolo and Goku could.

 

[Damage3245]

Have we ever actually seen anyone charge up a Kamehameha and use that energy for a physical strike instead?

Obviously we know they can put their Ki into their bodies/fists. That's not what I'm asking for.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Have we ever actually seen anyone charge up a Kamehameha and use that energy for a physical strike instead?

Obviously we know they can put their Ki into their bodies/fists. That's not what I'm asking for.

In case they would use a kamehameha they wouldn't use their fists but if you are asking for someone just focusing ki on their fist and then using it let me find something.

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

I mean flying seems to be something everyone can do. It's only a special thing on Db era Earth as even random frieza soldiers can fly but noone had comparable ki control to the Z fighters in the Saiyan and Frieza saga. That's also why Raditz was shocked they can focus Ki selectively on a body part namely the hands and Piccolo's fingers.

As for him increasing the power of his attacks that means he can fight harder or in a more laidback manner but can't exactly use it to the fullest potential like Picoolo and Goku could.

My point was that, to be able to fly, you need to control your ki at will. And he admitted he can increase the power of his attacks, this would likely applie to ki attacks. So it's weird that he was that surprise when goku did a basic move like the Kamehameha wave.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

My point was that, to be able to fly, you need to control your ki at will. And he admitted he can increase the power of his attacks, this would likely applie to ki attacks. So it's weird that he was that surprise when goku did a basic move like the Kamehameha wave.

Yeah maybe it's not actually that basic and focusing ki in your body parts is harder than distributing it around your body? I mean he also could use energy blasts it's possible he just couldn't make them stronger the way Piccolo and Goku could theirs.

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

Have we ever actually seen anyone charge up a Kamehameha and use that energy for a physical strike instead?

Obviously we know they can put their Ki into their bodies/fists. That's not what I'm asking for.

We are going in circles. I suggest you strongly review the page that i am referring to. I already explained it and addressed it multiples time now above. If they can demonstrate they can channel their own ki to increase their own physical statistics through their own bodies, then the feat they perform with their ki attacks/physical attacks scales to their own other statistics. If you know they can put Ki into their bodies what makes you think they cannot put however they want when they can simply control the flow of their own internal ki. Gonna repeat myself.

Goku's charged up amped full power ki attack was able to pierce threw demon king piccolo something nothing he had before could do.

It has been shown that they can implying their own energy to their bodies, this is why you have them raise their battle power or going at full power. The best example is goku has a kid controlling the flow of his to ki to the maximum to pierce threw king piccolo and kill him. The so called contradiction you have stated is not, its simply misunderstanding.

"where characters have shown visibly more power with their Kamehameha than they're capable of physically. Such as Goku failing to damage a wall with his kicks and punches, but could blast a hole though it with his Kamehameha."

You fail to realize, that the Kamehameha for example, expels more of the users internal power and throw's it at their opponents. Of course their regular kicks or punches would be weaker in comparison to their non-powered up state since they are expelling this ki as a projectile attack rather than using it to amp their bodies.


They can channel their own ki that is already in their bodies to enhances their physical stats. The higher the ki, the higher the physical stats of the user. Without ki, their natural bodies durability is low and losing "ki" greatly weakens their overall physical stats.

According to the UES page, if they do a feat that is with ki or with physical stats, it is assumed that they have at least that level of physical stats that the feat has demonstrated.


If there is a disagree option put me on that, if not the second best would be neutral.

Disagree, Cell should profile should stay as it is. They are channeling their own internal ki into their ki attacks and/or physical bodies to quantifiably enhances it. Meaning this Kamehameha will also scale to the physical stats when he uses that ki attack.


In order to qualify for a Universal Energy System and do scaling according to it, a character or the system they are using needs to fulfill all criteria for a Non-physical Energy System (also needs to have Limited Energy System to qualify for a Non-Physical Energy System). Additionally, they have to demonstrate that they can channel their power through their own bodies in a way that quantifiably enhances them or otherwise allows scaling of their supernatural powers through their physicals. Hence there should be evidence that an increase in power / energy should correspond to a proportional increase in the potency of their physical statistics. In the rare case that it is relevant for scaling the reverse should also be demonstrated: That a feat of non-empowered physical strength applies to the amount of supernatural power. Visual evidence of amplification is not considered necessary.

If the power source or universal energy system should be removed from a user by some means that should result in a notable loss in physical strength or alternatively even in physical harm or death. That doesn't necessarily mean that they should be reduced to the level of regular humans, though. Note that removal of energy sources can also have detrimental effects if they are not universal and as such negative effects of removal do not necessarily imply universalness.


Universal Energy System: Universal Energy Systems (alternatively called a Universal Power System or a Connective Energy System) are systems in which a feat, whether it is one of physical statistics (Striking Strength or Durability) or of supernatural powers (e.g. energy beams), would also scale to all other statistics. That means if such a character for instance demonstrates a Building level fireball spell, they would be assumed to have at least Building level Striking Strength, Attack Potency and Durability. If they have other spells, like for example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to output similar attack power with those spells.

 

[Damage3245]

We are going in circles. I suggest you strongly review the page that i am referring to. I already explained it and addressed it multiples time now above. If they can demonstrate they can channel their own ki to increase their own physical statistics through their own bodies, then the feat they perform with their ki attacks/physical attacks scales to their own other statistics. If you know they can put Ki into their bodies what makes you think they cannot put however they want when they can simply control the flow of their own internal ki. Gonna repeat myself.

You're assuming the concentrating enegy into a fist/body produces exactly the same result as concentrating energy into a single point. I'm just saying I'm not making that same assumption.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

You're assuming the concentrating enegy into a fist/body produces exactly the same result as concentrating energy into a single point. I'm just saying I'm not making that same assumption.

I mean a fist is probably smaller than most Ki blasts including kamehameha which is usually ranging from soccer ball to human sized. A case can be made for death beam and Piccolo finger attack and of course the Kienzan which is actually a perfect example of it. But it's not done because these attacks increase the total power via Ki just they use power in a much more focused way. A kamehameha however same as a galick gun or a masenko is not a small attack at all.

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

You're assuming the concentrating enegy into a fist/body produces exactly the same result as concentrating energy into a single point. I'm just saying I'm not making that same assumption.

The "same result" is an irrelevant point, If they can demonstrate they can channel their own ki to increase their own physical statistics through their own bodies, then the feat they perform with their ki attacks/physical attacks scales to their own other statistics. That is what an AP feat is for the so called "different results" (for example different DC), the ap, striking strength, and durability doesn't change (clearly mentioned in the UES page). It's not my assumption, this is according to the UES wiki page standards, that you should re-visit again.

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

Yeah maybe it's not actually that basic and focusing ki in your body parts is harder than distributing it around your body? I mean he also could use energy blasts it's possible he just couldn't make them stronger the way Piccolo and Goku could theirs.

For flying, even gotenks could shoot ki blast but he could not simply fly. Gohan mentions you first need to be able to control your own internal ki and then you can distribute it around the body. So raditzs statement is kinda weird.

 

[Damage3245]

The "same result" is an irrelevant point, If they can demonstrate they can channel their own ki to increase their own physical statistics through their own bodies, then the feat they perform with their ki attacks/physical attacks scales to their own other statistics. That is what an AP feat is for the so called "different results" (for example different DC), the ap, striking strength, and durability doesn't change (clearly mentioned in the UES page). It's not my assumption, this is according to the UES wiki page standards, that you should re-visit again.

How you use Ki is just as important as how much Ki you have. Otherwise we wouldn't have abilities like the Destruco Disk causing far more damage through one method than a character would be capable of achieving on their own without it.

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

How you use Ki is just as important as how much Ki you have. Otherwise we wouldn't have abilities like the Destruco Disk causing far more damage through one method than a character would be capable of achieving on their own without it.

It would still scales to the owners AP. It doesn't change the general rule I presented above nor the standards for the UES.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

It would still scales to the owners AP. It doesn't change the general rule I presented above nor the standards for the UES.

To be fair I think Kienzan is the only technigue that is shown doing that much damage above even life draining technigues like Kikoho, Final explosion and such as spirit bomb like Krillin being able to one shot Nappa with it when even Kikoho with life sacrifice added couldn't do much or cutting frieza's tail when Krillin wasn't even Recoome level.

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

To be fair I think Kienzan is the only technigue that is shown doing that much damage above even life draining technigues like Kikoho, Final explosion and such as spirit bomb like Krillin being able to one shot Nappa with it when even Kikoho with life sacrifice added couldn't do much or cutting frieza's tail when Krillin wasn't even Recoome level.

Yes, It's because of the sharp edge, and that is somehow enough to "ignore" the opponent durability. In those cases, its still an AP feat. But it does have its limits in the anime with jiren easily punching and catching them or in z when cell after transforming into is perfect form simply tanks it one from krillin.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

But it does have its limits in the anime with jiren easily punching and catching them

Jiren actually doesn't catch them, he punches them on the flat part to break them and not the actual blade itself.

or in z when cell after transforming into is perfect form simply tanks it one from krillin.

That's an anime filler feat so it doesn't count for the main continuity. The attack is described in the guides to cut through anything.

 

[Liger686]

Agree with the OP

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Jiren actually doesn't catch them, he punches them on the flat part to break them and not the actual blade itself.

That's an anime filler feat so it doesn't count for the main continuity. The attack is described in the guides to cut through anything.

Yeah that's why I'm saying Kienzan is the single most bullshit technique in the anime. Hakai is totally fair compared to it.

 

[Vietthai96]

You're assuming the concentrating enegy into a fist/body produces exactly the same result as concentrating energy into a single point. I'm just saying I'm not making that same assumption.

That is irrelevant, because if they channel that much amount of energy/ki, that mean their body can withstand the same amount to boost their physical power, and Ki being UES

And aren't you all forget that, Cell and Gohan performed a beam struggle that last for a very long time. If they just accumulated for a single strike, they can't constantly release energy/ki outward for a long time like that to beam struggle each other

How you use Ki is just as important as how much Ki you have. Otherwise we wouldn't have abilities like the Destruco Disk causing far more damage through one method than a character would be capable of achieving on their own without it.

Kienzan is a Piercing damage technique. And almost all Kienzan users isn't charged up the attack like Kamehameha, so it actually go against your premise

Anyway, i don't see any of the premise of this thread apply to anything beyond Raditz Saga, especially Cell Saga where we beyond all the power level thing, and despite they still charged up energy/ki, they later constantly release the same amount of charged up energy/ki outward to do beam struggle, if they accumulated enough energy/ki to do something beyond their usual limit, they should all drained up after firing one blast, not still have energy to beam struggle and then in some cases even continue fighting

 

[Damage3245]

That is irrelevant, because if they channel that much amount of energy/ki, that mean their body can withstand the same amount to boost their physical power, and Ki being UES

Quoting "Universal Energy System" isn't proof of anything... You actually have to provide evidence from the series itself.

And aren't you all forget that, Cell and Gohan performed a beam struggle that last for a very long time. If they just accumulated for a single strike, they can't constantly release energy/ki outward for a long time like that to beam struggle each other

It's actually not a very long time in the original manga. The anime is what draws it out ridiculously.

In the manga they just clash for about 7 pages before Cell is overpowered and destroyed.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Disagree FRA.

 

[Vietthai96]

Quoting "Universal Energy System" isn't proof of anything... You actually have to provide evidence from the series itself.

Aren't no way we going down this path. Ki, especially DB have been a common and prime example of being a Universal Energy System, and have been showing like that until now in the verse. Are we seriously suddenly need to prove this, or you suggest DBZ didn't have planetary level stats without ki blast???

It's actually not a very long time in the original manga. The anime is what draws it out ridiculously.

In the manga they just clash for about 7 pages before Cell is overpowered and destroyed.

They still doing beam struggling, that tell they constantly release the same amount of energy/ki outward to keep their beam going on and clashing, and it is for 7 pages, a single ki blast =/= a ki beam. Ki beam require user to constantly releasing ki to keep the blast going on, that is a basic knowledge of Dragon Ball. Aren't no way we debating this, no offend, but if this is the way we currently doing, we evolves ourselves backward

 

[GojiBoyForever]

Can Revived Cell destroy the solar system? Yes, this is unchanging.
Does this scale to its normal stats? Unfortunately, not.

For the umpteenth time in the wake of the 5-C Tri-Beam series of threads, concentrating Ki into a single point is explicitly shown to exponentially increase one's strength beyond their normal limits, and the Kamehameha is the greatest demonstration of this principle. And, with the Solar Kamehameha being referred to as Cell's "final Kamehameha", likely meaning its energy density far surpasses its predecessor, the "full power" Planet-Destroying Kamehameha, and with Cell building up the Kamehameha long enough for Gohan, Vegeta, and Piccolo to curse their individual uselessnesses in succession, the Solar Kamehameha is going to need a separate rating all to itself. Even the El Manga Legendario excerpt that Cell's 4-B confirmation blog references explicitly mentions that Cell had "accumulated enough energy to destroy the whole Solar System", which means that its normal stats no longer scale to >1.053 KiloFOE.

What its normal stats are going to be is up for discussion.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/384904518074368000/1120210656805802055/image.png

 

[Damage3245]

Aren't no way we going down this path. Ki, especially DB have been a common and prime example of being a Universal Energy System, and have been showing like that until now in the verse. Are we seriously suddenly need to prove this, or you suggest DBZ didn't have planetary level stats without ki blast???

When did I ever say they don't have Planet level stats without Ki blasts?

They still doing beam struggling, that tell they constantly release the same amount of energy/ki outward to keep their beam going on and clashing, and it is for 7 pages, a single ki blast =/= a ki beam. Ki beam require user to constantly releasing ki to keep the blast going on, that is a basic knowledge of Dragon Ball. Aren't no way we debating this, no offend, but if this is the way we currently doing, we evolves ourselves backward

And all I'm saying is that Ki beam is portrayed as being above their usual stats.