Celebrating 25k edits with chaos! Skill tries to eat pizza

[Oliver_de_jesus]

and what do you think of my scale, tony

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Also Ploz's vote is ridiculously blind and doesn't respond to the counterarguments for Dante, so his votes validity is questionable

"Blind"

Me not voting for Dante =/= Automatically ignorant or showing bias. I FRA'd an argument that was earlier on in this thread without the progression that's come now. If you don't think a vote is valid because the FRA'd reasons were wrong, remove it off of that rather than attacking my credibility please. You can remove my vote for Ikki though because Earl's reasonings got plunged from the looks of it.

 

[Schnee_One]

If an entire paragraph (Two actually) is dedicated to going against the reasoning of a character. And zero response is brought up and you vote anyway, that is the textbook definition of blind

Imagine voting a character without addressing the reasons why that character can or can't win.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Maybe I didn't respond because I'm not always stalking the wiki and I voted when I had a moment of time? Did that thought ever occur to you? Earl argued against it and I agreed with what he was saying. That's not being blind, that's sharing a common viewpoint.

So you mean practically any vote that's an FRA which comprises a good amount of this wiki? Imagine trying to act sly in this circumstance.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Guys calm down, there's no point in this argument.

 

[Schnee_One]

<I'm not always stalking the wiki and I voted when I had a moment of time? Did that thought ever occur to you?

No because that doesn't make sense, if you haven't read the reasons it's best not to vote. With saying "I voted when I had a moment of time" you admitted you haven't read all the reasoning, proving it was a blind vote. I'm not criticizing you for having a life that you want to put ahead of the wiki, that's unfortunately, not done by a lot of people here, however if you are talking some time out of your day to vote, use that time to read the reasons or wait for the thread to progress.

Most of the FRA votes yes, FRA is a terrible concept but it was agreed to be kept, so whatever.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

@oliver

Sounds good to me but we kinda need a CRT to have it accepted so, will you do one?

Sorry, quoted the wrong post :v

 

[Schnee_One]

Guys calm down, there's no point in this argument.

No insults are being thrown anywhere, outside of my admittedly over aggressive "Blind" so I apologize if that was a bit much @Ploz

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

I had read the reasons, I literally just said that's why I initially voted for Earl. No, when I said a moment of time, that's talking about when I could view what was happening in the thread and cast a vote. It was not just a literal moment where I click on a random thread and FRA a random character, that would be stupid. Therefore, it didn't classify as a blind vote. Progression will happen regardless of when I vote, there's no discernable "good point" in time for it.

FRA is just the short way of not repeating the exact same arguments to waste people's time and abuse ad nauseum. That's my view of it, that's why I FRA'd. Like I said, you can remove my vote if you want. Just don't do that again.

 

[Schnee_One]

So you read the hundreds of word count counter argument in favor of Ikki and just voted despite it without giving reasons why it's not correct?

Fair enough.

And no, I am going to do that again, most do it, and I happen to criticize.

 

[Schnee_One]

But.

They're both husbado's.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

I read both sides, not just Ikki's. That shifting the perception in favor of a more convenient narrative. Already said Earl summed up my thoughts, it'd realistically be no different if I just decided to regurgitate what he said as it adds nothing meaningful, as I explained in my last comment unless you support ad nauseum.

People say the voters are wrong because the arguments they FRA'd were, they don't call them blind and attack their credibility off of a brief comment.

 

[Schnee_One]

<That shifting the perception in favor of a more convienent narrative.

There is no motive or reason why I would even do this to begin with, so IDK where this comes from.

I do support counter arguments, if you call that ad-nauseum, then I guess I support it. Something like Trackless step not working in time Stop for lack of better example, is not something you can repeat and expect it to be valid.

I don't need to say why their reasons aren't correct, their was an entire paragraph of it that had no reasoning given why it was wrong above.

Anyway, this is derailing, I will stop here.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ok then. Btw few notes before i start.

• I will only answer 1 person at a time cus can't really with 3 walls of text from 3 different people at the same time, too annoying. So i will choose KnightofSunlight

• I left the "dante's regen can be overtaxed" part of the debate for last cus that basically deserves walls of text on its own, so let's do all the debate then take care of Dante's regen being overtaxed? That fine?
• @Schnee Hope ya don't mind me getting serious in these replies next time sth like this:

You know Earl for someone who claims to be a big fan, you really seem to know **** all about how the verse works.

happens.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@KightofSunlight

• What you've described doesn't sound like a 200x AP difference, it sounds like an outlier. This happens all the time in fiction, where people can dodge and barely survive against people far stronger and faster than them, but in every time it is usually conisdered an outlier for them not dying.Except for here, for some reason.

I mean why would it be considered an outlier when the show clearly knows what its trying to do and even has a very good idea of what it would be like, with "his head just vanishing" just from the wind pressure of attacks (not even the attack itself). Or his bones turning to ash from blocking any attack (10x difference). When your skill feats include "Block attacks by letting the entire energy of the attack flow behind you or redirecting it back at the enemy" where's the outlier in that? But then again, we've gone over this. Outliers aren't outliers when there is no reason for them to be. Are the skill feats ridiculous? Yes. Is it an outlier? No, cus when you have that kind of arsenal it's not all that ridiculous.

• I don't mean to be insulting, but when I hear "200x difference in AP" I don't think about how a character could outskill, I think about how even if they could outskill, they'd be flattened by the merest touch.

Again, what's your point? I literally showed you a case where just the air moving from the attack would insta kill. He just manages through it through insane levels of skill. So again, letting the energy of High 7-A attacks flow through your body, isn't a reason to call "fought against a High 7-A" unharmed. The reasoning of "it sounds bullshit to me so it is" doesn't work when you got the verse's facts to go against it.

• Anyway, aside from that little bit, you need to remember that Dante is not, and will never be, the people he has dealt with. Certainly Ikki can deal with them coming at him individually, but all at once, with a stronger fighter? Probably not.

He beat them all individually yes, the idea is, those really aren't the same characters. So what you need to read from my comment is "none of Dante's hax are unseen stuff for ikki, he has dealt and trashed that before, he's not gonna meet some conceptual law hax, that he just has no ways to succumb. It's harder to fight all at the same time, but doable".

• I don't get this. Why would you say "let's drop this" while also trying to make a statement about Ikki's superiority? Honestly my guy, it feels disingenuous. Like, you're making a statement while also saying that I can't respond to it. Not only that, the statement goes directly against what I believe, but since you've stated that you want to drop the issue, I'm going to look worse for bringing it up.

When did i make a statement about Ikki's superiority? I literally just said "ikki can fight people 10x faster". That's an actual feat. How is it a statement that "goes against what you believe" when he has feats of trashing 10x faster opponents? It's like me saying "it goes against what i believe that Dante and Vergil beat Arkham".

• Anyway, again, I will call outlier on this as well. If the difference is between FTL+ and MFTL+, I cannot take the feat seriously.

Is there anything at all you won't call an outlier. I wonder if you're even seriously trying to debate anymore? We've been over the feat. There have been several instances of people dealing with more than 10x faster people in Rakudai through sheer skill and absolutely desimated. "It never happened in DMC because of skill" isn't a reason for "lol outlier", the facts are there.

• In DMC3, 4, and 5, it is outright said to nullify the attack. Yes, it is a "block" in the same way that a parry is, only that RG outright nulls the attack, while a parry changes the momentum to go elsewhere.

It's a good block. Not "power null" that's just stupid. Nullifying the attack means just "invalidate sth" blocking an attack also nullifies it. It's like giving power null to random soldiers or policemen for "Nullifying the threat" or "Neutralizing the target".

• He can percieve of the invisible and intangible, and even percieve of threats before they manifest. He can also see aura. So yes, he can do a good bit.

None of those matter against Trackless Step. It's not invisibility, nor intangibility.

• Decon is a hard counter to invulnerability, and trackless step is countered by Dante's senses and precog.

Nah, ikki's sword can't be destroyed by someone with less magic it has tanked similar stuff.

 

[Rocker1189]

I am stil not sure what Ikki can do against time stop.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Dante

• Stella doesn't have any of that, so "scalling" Ikki's survival against Stella only shows that being at disadvantage in AP is nothing new, not that the very same scenario will just repeat itself

I never said the scenario will repeat and ikki will own, i just said, "3x AP advantage is insignificant to Ikki". What? You're saying Dante has other hax? Fair enough we'll debate those, but 3x AP gap is pretty much still equal. Also worth noting Ikki has a lot of "sharpness via skill" so he can still 1 shot even stronger people due to this (like when he could cut metal with paper).

• I know Ikki has Analytical Predicition and Instinctive Reactions, but both depends on Ikki following Dante's body movements, which will start to not happen when speed starts to appear, Ikki can read people faster than him, but he will never read someone while on Time Slow or Time Stop,

Ikki has analytical prediction, actual precog and IR, so nothing outside of time stop will really do the job. But ikki can use trackless step along with Edelweiss sword style to quickly get out of his sight the moment he uses time stop. His precog will warn him of that. Besides he can just quickly blitz to cut dante's head if he senses the time hax coming. I doubt Dante can time stop with his head flying all over the place.

• the later is literaly impossible, also their activation isn't something that Ikki will just "i have to stop this", Quicksilver literally stops at will, and Bangle aswell (The game does have an animation with Dante punching the ground to trigger it while stopped on ground, but same doesn't happens while in other circumstances)

Quicksilver is a snap iirc. Bangle still has animation, whether they're necessary or not needs to be proven but it will still be what dante uses.

• You said how Dante's regen isn't infinite but the only real time when Ikki is really going to make Dante's Regen work is when he will be using Shura, I don't even need to argue about Dante's regen limit (It doesn't exist, the limit is his Stamina, not his Regenerationn) to show how being there or not

Stamina sure, but it does get slower and slower, until arguably not even working anymore during a fight. So yeah, during a sword fight which is what Dante resorts too, he gets tired and in terms of stamina he ain't topping Ikki, so taking damage will start to be slow to heal or not heal at all.

• Both Steps and Dodges depend on one thing: motion. This by default doesn't happen when Time is literally stopped, I don't see the real reason to why that would work against Time Stop and that's why it is so dangerous, once it gets activated, and it will, Ikki literally is screwed, as he can't dodge deconstruction and etc

Which is why ikki's senses, blitz and like several dozen abilities to get out of something quickly will help here, getting out of sight in a way that to dante it seems like he just vanished to hide for as long as the time stop lasts, then do the same thing to become imperceptible to attack him again when the time stop ends. So to Dante it will just be getting hit by something he can't see or sense over and over with him getting decapitated each time.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I am stil not sure what Ikki can do against time stop.

Rocker become imperceptible and use the area around him to hide, for someone like ikki, it's a piece of cake. Considering the fact that dante doesn't and never uses time stop for extended periods of time.

So it's not like dante can leave the time stop on and start searching every nook and crany of a city, not to mention he doesn't even know Ikki is hiding.

 

[Rocker1189]

So you are saying that the moment Dante times stops, Ikki would have moved far enough away from the fight that Dante would not be within his vicinity, I find that somewhat hard to believe especially since Ikki would not know about time stop and they are literally 100 m apart from each other. Not to mention speed is equal. Ikki is not invisible. Dante would still see him with ease. In fact Dante has enhanced senses, Ikki's trackless step would be useless in the time stop.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ikki's trackless step

Edel style (which has the same effect as a blitz btw, people comparable can't see him at all).

If need be Ittou Shura and probs things im forgetting

Would be enough. Considering both quicksilver and bangle of time have a certain condition to their use, the fact that Ikki will see Dante's every move from the way he thinks (Perfect Vision) and his actual precog. It will be enough.

And not just "not in the vicinity" i mean more of "unknown location to dante".

Dante's enhanced senses don't mean anything to these abilities, his senses work to counter other stuff (like being invisible). And trackless step is useless during time stop, but is glorious before it.

Btw what's the range for the time abilities? Iirc quicksilver is like a big room, so building size at most i guess. Bangle of time seems literally just quick silver but stop instead of slow.

 

[Rocker1189]

So he would need to Ittou Shura first, I thught his precog was analytical based, how would he know that Dante is going to time stop, that is not something that can be analytically predicted. His other precognition only gives him visions of his death but I am not sure how that would help against time stop.

Pretty sure Dante can sense magical energy as well, which would be emitted from Ikki and even if he hides away from Dante as long as he is within range he should be sensed in the time stop. I dont know what the conditions are for their activation so DMC fans would have to tell me.

I dont know Dante nearly enough to give range so I am just countering arguments based on what I see on the wiki.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

His analytical prediction is analytical prediction. About the precog, well death would happen in time stop, and it's not just about death, example when he warned him that Stella could go High 7-A on thought, i doubt it would kill him considering he'd be faster, but he'd get incapped after that, nothing to do.

Ikki's magical energy might as well be non existent doe, so not the best thing to rely on. About the range, it's not all that hard to move dozens of meters in an instant for Ikki who has Edel Style and Trackless Step.

Not to mention things like Ikki going for a full bisection, decapitation if Dante goes for activations.

 

[Rocker1189]

Then it probably wont work to tell him about timestop tbh, t best I can see it telling him that he is death maybe he would then go Ittou Shura but idk if it would be enough.

As long as he has magical energy I dont see why he wont be sensed. They are equal in speed with Ittou Shura his speed is still below what Dante's speed in this form shoul dbe if I am reading his page right meaning that as per wiki rules he wont be faster than Dante because the slower character cant use speed boosts to outspeed the faster character in a speed equal situation.

If time gets stopped I dont see how that helps.

 

[Schnee_One]

Dante: Stops Tine

Alastor: "Hey Hey! Schoolboy is standing right there"

Dante: I don't see him

Alastor: "Just swing"

Dante: Swings

Ikki: Dies

 

[Rocker1189]

yeah I dont even know but if thats how it works then I dont see how Ikki survives.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Rocker

It told him about stella's High 7-A activation.

I don't think just "has magic" is a strong argument. When has Dante ever been able to pinpoint the location of people hundreds of meters away who have almost no magic. Though Ikki's speed in Ittou Shura >>> Dante's speed. The MFTL is only for Sparda's devil trigger, which isn't the case here.

@Schnee

You totally missed my point. Ikki can get out of range and hide. Not just "just swing" and stay in front of him. Either that or cut dante in about a dozen pieces before he can pull the time stop. He's much faster and imperceptible as long as time isn't stopped, the possibilities are endless for him.

 

[Schnee_One]

Time Stop is universal in range. And he has no idea about time Stop.

Unlike Stella, who he knows can go Dragon Spirit as he saw her fight against Ouma

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Time Stop is universal in range. And he has no idea about time Stop.
Unlike Stella, who he knows can go Dragon Spirit as he saw her fight against Ouma

Why....? Considering its similarities to Quicksilver (which is not universal at all), bangle of time also has this "expanding" type of slow. So definitely not universal.

He did not know about the activation though. It was just his fear sensing stuff. Besides:

Dante: Fights in swords and gets overpowered

Ikki: Sees Dante perform a flashy af move to hit the ground

Also Ikki: Yeah imma let him finish this, i wonder why he's doing such a thing with so much wasted movement.

I mean come on, who do you think Ikki is?

 

[Schnee_One]

That's literally a default unless shown

Time Stop and Time Manipulation

So he has no idea this dude can time Stop or to apparently run out of range of an ability with universal range. Alastor's Precog tells him Ikki is there and Dante hits him.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

That's literally a default unless shown
Time Stop and Time Manipulation

So he has no idea this dude can time Stop or to apparently run out of range of an ability with universal range. Alastor's Precog tells him Ikki is there and Dante hits him.

Usually default due to the nature of how time works. So usually when you stop time it can be assumed it is universal cus time is a universal concept. But like, when you literally have an expanding wave where this time stop happens, no way in hell the default assumption is universal.

He knows something bad will happen so he either runs out of range (some hundred meters) or just insta kills dante and chops him into confetti because of the long animation bangle of time has compared to Ikki's massive speed advantage.

 

[SpookyShadow]

'''Looks at Dio's time stop which is said to be universal'''

 

[Schnee_One]

Yeah Dio's time Stop does that, an expanding wave meaning that stopping the flow of time isn't universal is about as Game Mechanics as Cole being able to neurosucc from the top of a tower.

Range is moot for reasons given so if he does that he's dead.

Chopping into confetti is possible, albeit not in character.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Not in character? Ikki going for that is totally in character doe. He would usually not kill, that's true, but SBA takes care of that.

 

[Schnee_One]

When has Ikki, ever, cut someone to bits.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Willing to kill earl not bloodlusted, I get the destinct feeling ikki's going to reach for his favorite incap move before he decides to turn dante into confetti... Being willing to kill doesn't change ikki's reluctance to kill, just makes sure he will go for it when his usual in character moves don't work.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

When has Ikki, ever, cut someone to bits.

Well most people don't have regen on Dante's level in Rakudai. By the time his time stop becomes a factor (which will be pretty late as its not in character), ikki will have realized his regen and against Or-Gaule who has a similar form of "regen" (his type wasn't really regen, but it worked similarly). He went for stabbing the brain, detaching limbs etc. Knowing Dante's regen he would obviously go for more.

@Pen

Whoever said bloodlusted, but does it take a genius to think "this dude can reattatch limbs and stuff so im just gonna do more damage than that"? The fav incap move will have long been gone due to having fought for quite some time before that point. Ikki will have realized Phantom Form won't work.

 

[00potato]

He probably won't be able to do that before tome stop goes off do to the regen. He needs to figure out how to get around it, close the distance, and cut him up to the point of nullifying the regen. And he probably won't start with that immediately anyway.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Dante won't start with time stop either, so what's your point? Besides, ikki will be in range at all times. Dante has ways to fight at range, Ikki doesn't he'd never do such a mistake against an opponent (stay at range against a ranged fighter).

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

I have work today, but I'm going to respond when I get off

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Sure no rush.

I guess we can continue the debate past grace since we can't add stuff either way (due to the forum nuke)...i think.