Calc stacking and Undertale downgrade

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

If you know any more examples of something like this on the wiki, please point them out.

Presumably a bunch of the early DBZ speeds. Along with likely having to replace speed justifications for everything Frieza level onwards with more recent calcs.

 

[LordXcano]

Wait a second, I thought using KE for Mass x Velocity was expressedly a fine thing to do in cases of character speed as long as the mass was connected to the attacker in question, and that this has been done numerous times now? In that case, wouldn't we just substitute the bone with one of the monsters or something?

No, not as far as I remember.


'N'ot sure how it would be an outlier if none of the other calcs it's being compared to use the same speed for the KE. Not to mention the fact that in this case, the KE isn't from a separate speed feat. As I already said, it's just for Napstablook's movement, in general.


See the above teleport comment. Plus it's scaling Napsta's attacks to his speed despite him "not feeling up to it" and then further using relativistic KE to gain a result way higher than anything that is normally done.

and a calc could likely be made for the KE of Frisk dodging light from knight knight's sun as well

There's no proof that was light, which is why Napsta is used for all the scaling

 

[ThePerpetual]

At any rate, I'll look into this more later for sure. Been meaning to for a while...

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

See the above teleport comment.

See above reply to the teleport comment.

 

[Alakabamm]

Presumably a bunch of the early DBZ speeds. Along with likely having to replace speed justifications for everything Frieza level onwards with more recent calcs.

I don't understand. Are you saying their AP is derived from KE due to speed, not their own feats and power level scaling?

 

[LordXcano]

Alright I'll accept that, but I still don't accept using relativistic KE from a separate speed feat to justify bumping an entire verse up to a Island tier when all the other feats are far below that (excluding end-game)

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I don't understand. Are you saying their AP is derived from KE due to speed, not their own feats and power level scaling?

Nononono. Only speeds, there. For instance, Vegeta's speed being based off of multipliers applied to the specific result of a calced speed feat, SSJ Goku's speed being based off of multipliers applied to said multipliers of the initial speed feat, etc.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Alright I'll accept that, but I still don't accept using relativistic KE from a separate speed feat to justify bumping an entire verse up to a Island tier when all the other feats are far below that (excluding end-game)

Like I said, this other calc only uses Napstablook, and the results are significantly below Island level.

 

[LordXcano]

@Azathoth The thing he's questioning is getting AP from KE, not using multipliers to get new stats.

Also even if it is only Napsta it still shouldn't fly. The Flash can easily go 0.99999999c based on assumptions that have far more evidence backing it up than relativistic Napsta in the first place, but Multi-Galactic Flash isn't going to fly because it's over-inflated from his other feats

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Azathoth The thing he's questioning is getting AP from KE, not using multipliers to get new stats.
Also even if it is only Napsta it still shouldn't fly. The Flash can easily go 0.99999999c based on assumptions that have far more evidence backing it up than relativistic Napsta in the first place, but Multi-Galactic Flash isn't going to fly because it's over-inflated from his other feats

He asked for examples of calc stacking, which that blatantly is.

False equivalence. Flash frequently achieves speeds vastly beyond the speed of light, hence we don't assume he's going 0.999999999999999(repeating)c and becoming multi-galaxy level. Not to mention when he specifically DOES stuff like this in the comics, the results are dwarf star level.

 

[LordXcano]

He could though. Scaling itself presupposes that opponents are using their best and greatest when fighting bloodlusted. I can easily ask "Why wouldn't Flash move 0.9999999999999999999c when bloodlusted?" and it'd still be more justified than this.

This is assuming they're always going relativistic speeds when fighting non-bloodlusted, that relativistic speed can be used in combat despite feats in-game having far lower showings, and that relativistic speed based on a single feat that can be interpreted in multiple ways isn't an outlier.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Wait, so is this a speed and AP downgrade thread, or just an AP?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

snip

Except, again, Flash consistently moves well beyond the speed of light, and when he DOES something to this effect in canon, it results in dwarf star level. So again, no. Not justified. Not the same. Not even close.

Except it's not, though? It's not even using things that happen in battle. At all. You don't even need to assume Napstablook was fighting to his fullest (which he wasn't) because it doesn't even use the Napstablook battle.

I've also been over why the whole "it can be interpreted differently" thing is total bullshit. Like, a very, very, veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrryyyy great number of times. On multiple threads. With multiple answers. Screaming "outlier" doesn't automatically invalidate something simply because you want it to.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Wait, so is this a speed and AP downgrade thread, or just an AP?

Solely AP, which was even mentioned in the OP. "While it is seemingly sound that Papyrus scales to Napsta's relativistic feat, the calc itself is not."

Not to mention I've been over why "lol outlier" doesn't work, here.

 

[LordXcano]

Not to mention I've been over why "lol outlier" doesn't work, here.

Then why is Roshi not Moon level for Dragon Ball? Because other characters could only destroy islands? Easy, AP != AoE. Same justification being given here.

I've also been over why the whole "it can be interpreted differently" thing is total bullshit. Like, a very, very, veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrryyyy great number of times.

Doesn't necessarily invalidate it. The best explanation I've seen you give is someone teleported to the door to knock on it, but given the lack of mention or motivation for anyone to knock on the door Occam's Razor would say the light did it.

Except, again, Flash consistently moves well beyond the speed of light, and when he DOES something to this effect in canon, it results in dwarf star level. So again, no. Not justified. Not the same. Not even close.

Fine, MMH can go 0.99999999999999c too. Same with Superman. And they don't have the IMP "white dwarf" statement do they? Also, going FTL doesn't mean that they suddenly can't go a lesser speed.

Except it's not, though? It's not even using things that happen in battle. At all. You don't even need to assume Napstablook was fighting to his fullest (which he wasn't) because it doesn't even use the Napstablook battle.

The calc explicitly uses headphones moving at relativistic speed. I can only assume this is in-battle.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Then why is Roshi not Moon level for Dragon Ball? Because other characters could only destroy islands? Easy, AP != AoE. Same justification being given here.

Doesn't necessarily invalidate it. The best explanation I've seen you give is someone teleported to the door to knock on it, but given the lack of mention or motivation for anyone to knock on the door Occam's Razor would say the light did it.

Fine, MMH can go 0.99999999999999c too. Same with Superman. And they don't have the IMP "white dwarf" statement do they? Also, going FTL doesn't mean that they suddenly can't go a lesser speed.

The calc explicitly uses headphones moving at relativistic speed. I can only assume this is in-battle.

Because other characters STRUGGLED to destroy much less, later on. See the difference, here? If it was only because other characters didn't show off as much destruction, Frieza's Low 4-C feat would be an outlier and nobody in DBZ would go beyond planet level.

Except, ya know, that's dishonest and it doesn't if you actually pay attention to the context of the game.

MMH goes much faster than light, regularly. So does Superman. Nobody is arguing they can't. The argument is that they don't do things like this, often. And when they do, again, the result is much, much, much less.

Not in battle. Out of battle. Napstablook doesn't even wear headphones in battle, and his rel+ feat isn't from battle, either. No idea why you'd think this was from his battle.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Solely AP, which was even mentioned in the OP. "While it is seemingly sound that Papyrus scales to Napsta's relativistic feat, the calc itself is not."

Not to mention I've been over why "lol outlier" doesn't work, here.

Ok good. I was also tired of the lol not relativistic threads. However, I do have easily answered Chara questions I'm probably gonna ask you in person, so to speak. I'm too scared of being hated to make a thread about it.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Ok good. I was also tired of the lol not relativistic threads. However, I do have easily answered Chara questions I'm probably gonna ask you in person, so to speak. I'm too scared of being hated to make a thread about it.

Go ahead, whenever you want. Honestly anything that isn't "lol outlier" is welcome, at this point.

 

[LordXcano]

Because other characters STRUGGLED to destroy much less, later on. See the difference, here? If it was only because other characters didn't show off as much destruction, Frieza's Low 4-C feat would be an outlier and nobody in DBZ would go beyond planet level.

Cell struggled to find an android in a series of islands when he could've just busted them all IIRC (or perhaps that was anime filler).

Except, ya know, that's dishonest and it doesn't if you actually pay attention to the context of the game.

Except that was your explanation for it.

MMH goes much faster than light, regularly. So does Superman. Nobody is arguing they can't. The argument is that they don't do things like this, often. And when they do, again, the result is much, much, much less.

Proof it's less?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Cell struggled to find an android in a series of islands when he could've just busted them all IIRC (or perhaps that was anime filler).

Except that was your explanation for it.

Proof it's less?

Unrelated? Also, remember how Cell was doing a lot of messing around and taunting due to that being completely in his character?

Except no it wasn't? You said the best explanation was that the light did it. I said it wasn't. Never was "the light did it" my explanation.

See almost every IMP statement ever.

 

[LordXcano]

Unrelated? Also, remember how Cell was doing a lot of messing around and taunting due to that being completely in his character?

Lemme use a better one then. Thor containing the power to destroy 1/5th of the universe. Since comics are subject to intense PIS, I could easily argue that everyone is Multi-Galactic scaling from the Godblast and that situations of struggle are PIS.

Except no it wasn't? You said the best explanation was that the light did it. I said it wasn't. Never was "the light did it" my explanation.

Yeah I know. Why would anyone else but the light knock on the door? What would the motivation be?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Lemme use a better one then. Thor containing the power to destroy 1/5th of the universe. Since comics are subject to intense PIS, I could easily argue that everyone is Multi-Galactic scaling from the Godblast and that situations of struggle are PIS.

Yeah I know. Why would anyone else but the light knock on the door? What would the motivation be?

Again, unrelated? Though you might be replying to a different point and I might be missing something, but the initial subject was outliers, not PIS.

-cough-AsrielandFlowey-cough-.

 

[LordXcano]

Again, unrelated? Though you might be replying to a different point and I might be missing something, but the initial subject was outliers, not PIS.

No. I'm asking why everyone in Marvel isn't upgraded to Multi-Galactic. There's a 1/5th universe level thing right there, and all the inconsistencies can be handwaved as PIS. We don't do it because none of the other feats even compare to that, so it's an outlier. No other feats (aside from end-game) even compare to relativistic speed. You see what I'm getting at?

-cough-AsrielandFlowey-cough-.

All that's doing is naming who you say knocked on the door. It gives no explanation as to why they'd feel the need to.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

No. I'm asking why everyone in Marvel isn't upgraded to Multi-Galactic. There's a 1/5th universe level thing right there, and all the inconsistencies can be handwaved as PIS. We don't do it because none of the other feats even compare to that, so it's an outlier. No other feats (aside from end-game) even compare to relativistic speed. You see what I'm getting at?

All that's doing is naming who you say knocked on the door. It gives no explanation as to why they'd feel the need to.

Except, again, unrelated. I've quite literally just explained this. Remember how Roshi's moon-bust is considered an outlier due to much stronger characters repeatedly struggling to destroy less? It's literally the exact same, here. Exactly the same. Other people not having a rel+ feat does not make it an outlier since there's no point in which something of significantly less speed is considered incredibly hard to dodge or any point at which this is mentioned to be an absurdly high speed unexpected to be achieved. Context is a huge thing, here.

Because as I've said before, I explained this a bunch in many other threads and didn't want to clog this one, but at this point, **** it. Flowey has already shown the ability to pop up wherever he wants to in the Underground. Both Flowey and (by extension) Asriel have shown to have a penchant for toying around and taunting other people. Asriel, pretty much immediately after this, transcends time and can be wherever and do whatever he wants. The light got to every other monster in the Underground anyway, regardless of whether they were inside a building/closed off room or not, making the knocking superfluous. Light itself does not stop to knock on doors. See what I'm getting at, here?

 

[ThePerpetual]

Just for the record, comic book characters isn't exactly a fair comparison for your argument since they more or less just have the winner of direct conflicts be A: what would best fit the narrative, and B: who they like more. There's a reason we have entirely seperate rules for Power-scaling for comics, just saying.

 

[Squid_peanut]

No. I'm asking why everyone in Marvel isn't upgraded to Multi-Galactic. There's a 1/5th universe level thing right there, and all the inconsistencies can be handwaved as PIS. We don't do it because none of the other feats even compare to that, so it's an outlier. No other feats (aside from end-game) even compare to relativistic speed. You see what I'm getting at?


All that's doing is naming who you say knocked on the door. It gives no explanation as to why they'd feel the need to.

1) did you even read the page on scaling with marvel or DC?? we have special rules for them because they are super inconsistent.

2) Flowey/Asriel were literally trying to capture every single soul in the underground with that, that's why he possesed interest in entering napsta's house.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Alright, now I'm just confused... The knocking was superfluous? Why didn't it get Napstablook then?

 

[Squid_peanut]

Alright, now I'm just confused... The knocking was superfluous? Why didn't it get Napstablook then?

because he closed any enterance the light coould have used

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Alright, now I'm just confused... The knocking was superfluous? Why didn't it get Napstablook then?

Because he actually closed the blinds, which is part of the reason the feat is important in the first place. Also important to note that he was literally the only combat capable monster not at the epicenter of Flowey's attack. Everyone else are random civilians who don't fight and didn't directly befriend Frisk.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I was going to say "but you said characters in closed up rooms got got," but the fact that you said he's the only combat applicable one satisfied me.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I was going to say "but you said characters in closed up rooms got got," but the fact that you said he's the only combat applicable one satisfied me.

"Closed up rooms" as in rooms that almost certainly had windows, as it doesn't seem like anyone in the Underground stays in totally isolated dark spaces, most of the time. Then again, even with rooms that might not have had windows, there seems to be other ways to get in (for instance, rooms in the MTT hotel have enough space under each door for a hotdog to fit under, making it incredibly easy for the light to slip in, through there.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Well, there are the Ruins, and judging by its background, I'm pretty sure that it had no other exits or windows. But that could be because we only see it from one angle.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Well, there are the Ruins, and judging by its background, I'm pretty sure that it had no other exits or windows. But that could be because we only see it from one angle.

Frisk befriended everyone in the Ruins, though. The only ones who lived there were Toriel and the enemies like Froggit, who all showed up for the final battle.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

That's true. I can't think of any exceptions. Umm... Maybe Glyde. And I don't even know where and/or how to meet So Sorry.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

That's true. I can't think of any exceptions. Umm... Maybe Glyde. And I don't even know where and/or how to meet So Sorry.

Something about going somewhere in Hotland and setting your clock to a specific date and time. Also, I think the light can also pass through the Ruins through the small opening in the door, seeing Muffet said the spiders could pass through it, but the cold would kill them.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So, here's an absolutely wild and crazy idea.

Instead of discussing the same tired points about human speed city block level Undertale that I've debunked literally over a dozen times, why don't we take the Napstablook calc (which objectively does not use any type of calc stacking whatsoever), check up on it to make sure all the math is solid/make any tweaks that need to be made, and apply that, instead?

Also going to note that unlike the Papyrus calc (which only directly scales to everyone Waterfall and onwards, the Napstablook calc applies to everyone after the Ruins (90% of everyone in the game), meaning we don't have to guess for everyone lower than Papyrus level. It also pretty much puts everyone back at levels similar to what I had them at originally and only uses one feat performed by one low-tier character.

If there are legitimate complaints with this (that I haven't already covered numerous times), then I would like to hear them, but to me, this seems like the best idea. Thoughts?

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

So, here's an absolutely wild and crazy idea.
Instead of discussing the same tired points about human speed city block level Undertale that I've debunked literally over a dozen times, why don't we take the Napstablook calc (which objectively does not use any type of calc stacking whatsoever), check up on it to make sure all the math is solid/make any tweaks that need to be made, and apply that, instead?

Also going to note that unlike the Papyrus calc (which only directly scales to everyone Waterfall and onwards, the Napstablook calc applies to everyone after the Ruins (90% of everyone in the game), meaning we don't have to guess for everyone lower than Papyrus level. It also pretty much puts everyone back at levels similar to what I had them at originally and only uses one feat performed by one low-tier character.

If there are legitimate complaints with this (that I haven't already covered numerous times), then I would like to hear them, but to me, this seems like the best idea. Thoughts?

Seems fine to me. Also, no offense, but you sound so done right now XD

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Seems fine to me. Also, no offense, but you sound so done right now XD

I am ridiculously done. Not even from any one thing in particular. Mainly just from the fact that I've had to be a part of a hilariously large amount of Undertale threads since I started making the profiles for it, and now, after all this time, it may turn out that the tiers I originally thought to be best were right, the whole time. lol

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Do you need a hug, Azzy lol? But in all seriousness, I feel for ya.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Azzy needs all the hugs.