Broly V.S Jiren 2 Electric Boogaloo

[CryoTheMayo]

Nothing whatsoever makes Belmod any weaker than Beerus. In fact he was compared and said to be possibly stronger than Beerus. I believe they should be equal.

Base Jiren is far stronger than Belmod, and Beerus is far stronger than that. It's mathematically impossible for Belmod to be anywhere close to Beerus, unless you are claiming Ultra Instinct -Sign- is in the vein of tens of thousands of times stronger than Blue.

His reactions on the ToP shouldn't say anything of his PL. Champa isn't massively weaker than Beerus as proven in the same show, they are on par with Beerus being slightly stronger.

We've never seen Champa and Beerus fight all out, and Champa is objectively weaker. We also have numerous statements and scenes showing that Champa is less capable. Claiming they are comparable because they fought is like claiming SSG Goku and Beerus are near-equals because they fought.

Btw, The strongest guy Frieza fought before SSJ Broly was a Serious Jiren (the one who went 1v3 against SSBE, KKx20 and 17) and he wasn't near 100%

Which I have said and brought up. Even so, Jiren powered up to having like six auras, so it's doubtful he was that far from his peak capacity.

And Jiren can easily one shot here, this is SSJ Broly we are talking about. Not SSJFP the one who Gogeta fought, let's not forget Gogeta wasn't even serious to begin with.

Sure.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Ok, so just because helles and sidra are surprised at frieza's power that makes them weaker or at least comparable to him? The 9th's supreme kai saying that it wouldn't be easy for sidra to destroy frieza is based upon the fact that he survived the weak sauce hakai ball, we know its nowhere near sidra's full power because base goku survived it. Also, with that logic because beerus was surprised at jiren and UI goku it would mean that they surpassed beerus, right?

Pretty sure I never claimed Frieza surpassed Helles or Sidra, just that their reactions and fear of him show they aren't as strong as Beerus. Beerus literally blows Sidra's Hakai away casually (when Sidra was afraid of Frieza for controlling it) and he treated Frieza with zero fear or caution.

Well since toryiama has more direct involvement with the manga than the anime it should lead to reason that broly should be a 3-A, right? C'mon now if we are going to scale the movie to the anime's level of power, we can't cross scale the manga and anime. The true cannon for dragon ball super comes down to this, whatever is different from the anime and manga is non-cannon and whatever is the same is cannon.

I never said this. I simply stated that Toriyama has more involvement with the manga and the manga has Beerus stomping around GoDs. This is simply me implying that Toriyama considers Beerus to be superior to the other GoDs, or at least considers that to be an acceptable interpretation by Toyotaro.

I'm also going to need to see something that would lead me to believe that frieza was in fact conscious during that whole fight. I'm still kind of fuzzy on the reasoning we take that novel as verifiable cannon, links would be very appreciated to explain those two to me.

The Jiren fight? Frieza was awake when Toppo and Vegeta started fighting and vanished, then ambushed Jiren later on.

Frieza tanking Broly and not getting knocked out? Sure here is a link to translations. I'll quote what part I mean:

"And thus, Frieza's battle continued on for over an hour. However, his stamina was nearing its ends. On the other hand, Broly continued attacking without losing any power as if his stamina were limitless."

"Broly did not step any closer. Could he have felt that Frieza no longer had any power left to resist?
As he let out a roar, Broly flared his aura and launched in a completely different location."

As the novel states, Broly left Frieza once he noticed Frieza lacked the stamina to keep fighting and was unable to resist. An unconscious person, by definition, can not resist.

If Frieza was knocked out even once, he would be unable to resist whereas the novel states Broly likely left due to Frieza 'no longer' being able to resist.

In conclusion, Frieza wasn't knocked out even once against Broly.

I mean neither Grand Zeno nor Champa were able to keep track of Dyspo, I'm pretty sure you understand where I am going with that.

No, I don't. Zeno has explicitly been stated to not be a fighter and has never displayed any notable power outside of his omnipotence. I understand the common sense is that Ki scales all physicals, but we are never given any reason to think Zeno is using Ki or even that he has a Ki.

We even see Vados outright state she can track Dyspo, in the same context that Zeno can not track Dyspo. So it's clear that this isn't an outlier or contradiction. If Vados claimed she couldn't track Dyspo, then it would be a severe issue.

Since Vados can track Dyspo whereas Zeno and Champa can not, this implies Zeno and Champa simply lack the reactions to track Dyspo.

I think whis's statement about jiren is way more solid than goku's statement about broly lets be real here, who knows way more about Gods of Destruction?

Whis has only ever referred to Jiren as a rumoured mortal that a GoD can not defeat. He never states ALL GoDs (the GoDs, any GoD, etc) and even claims he doesn't know if the rumor is true or accurate.

Overall the calcs are rock solid it's just the basis of who goes where in the equation that I question. Also, you wouldn't be able to use Kiao-Ken if you're scaling from the manga but I'm sure you know that.

Of course, albeit Goku did use a KK-like technique in the manga.

 

[Omegas03]

Base Jiren is far stronger than Belmod, and Beerus is far stronger than that. It's mathetmatically impossible for Belmod to be anywhere close to Beerus, unless you are claiming Ultra Instinct -Sign- is in the vein of tens of thousands of times stronger than Blue.

UIS and MUI can perfectly be thousands of times stronger than Blue. Beerus is far above Belmod based on what? Nothing suggests such statement, even Whis has said Belmod is stronger que Beerus when talking about Jiren's rumor and the rumor gets confirmed many times. UIS is said to be reaching the state of the Gods also. Belmod and Beerus have no reason to be far apart.

We've never seen Champa and Beerus fight all out, and Champa is objectively weaker. We also have numerous statements and scenes showing that Champa is less capable. Claiming they are comparable because they fought is like claiming SSG Goku and Beerus are near-equals because they fought.

Well, I can't deny Champa has been shown to be less capable than Beerus but nothing suggest such a big gap, it has been said that a fight between both would destroy 2 universes, such thing couldn't happen if they weren't close in strength. The gap you are claiming is one shot worthy

Which I have said and brought up. Even so, Jiren powered up to having like six auras, so it's doubtful he was that far from his peak capacity.

He was still kinda relaxed in the 1v3 fight and at the start of his fight against UIS3 Goku so it's entirely possible.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

UIS and MUI can perfectly be thousands of times stronger than Blue.

To claim this would be to claim Goku became thousands of times stronger Post-UIS2, and that Vegeta also became thousands of times stronger before even going SSBE (considering he saw through Jiren's offense and struck him) and also has no basis other than UIS being much stronger than KKX20 Blue.

even Whis has said Belmod is stronger que Beerus

Which Beerus denies as a measurement of Belmod being stronger with complete seriousness and Whis doesn't contradict him when Beerus says as such. We don't even know how much strength Beerus would have used in that contest in the first place, so it's a poor measure of strength relative to Beerus.

This is the same anime that has SS2 Vegeta failing to lift 1,000 tons, when SS Goku could lift 50 tons seven years before the Buu Saga.

Belmod and Beerus have no reason to be far apart.

Goku Blue = 1x.

Belmod = Between Blue and UIS due to being much weaker than Jiren

UIS Goku = At least 40x

Jiren = Stronger than UIS Goku in Base

SS Broly = 50x

SSG Gogeta = 10,000s of times

FPSS Broly and Beerus = Somewhere between SSG and SSB Gogeta

SSB Gogeta = 100,000s of times

It is quite literally impossible to claim or argue that Belmod is anywhere close to Beerus. Your only evidence for such a claim is a single arm wrestle, which Beerus rejects as a measure of power.

but nothing suggest such a big gap,

Beerus has never displayed difficulty observing Dyspo and has never been afraid or shocked by Goku or HIt. Champa was afraid of Goku and Hit briefly, when they were FAR weaker back when this occurred. There is a pretty notable gap in just the depiction of the two GoDs and the math would contradict Champa being anywhere close.

it has been said that a fight between both would destroy 2 universes, such thing couldn't happen if they weren't close in strength.

SSG Goku and a massively suppressed Beerus fighting nearly resulted in Universe 7 being destroyed, and every GoD is capable of using Hakais.

Champa is absolutely capable of erasing the entire universe with a single attack, considering he is thousands of times the power of SSG Goku.

If two GoDs of Champa's level fought, using Hakais, they can absolutely erase entire universes.

The gap you are claiming is one shot worthy

The gap between a serious Beerus and BoG SSG Goku is so utterly, hilariously, massive that Beerus could have glared Goku out of existence if he had even slightly bothered. Beerus has no reason to try going for the kill against his sibling, and has never displayed any lethal or malicious intent towards Champa. He will most likely hold back massively for him.

He was still kinda relaxed in the 1v3 fight and at the start of his fight against UIS3 Goku so it's entirely possible.

I'm not denying he was considerably lesser than his peak, but Jiren's power didn't surge nearly as much as it did against Goku, Vegeta and 17 afterwards. The gap between Pre-3way Jiren and Post-3way Jiren is likely much larger than the gap between Post-3way Jiren and VS UIS3 Jiren.

 

[Omegas03]

To claim this would be to claim Goku became thousands of times stronger Post-UIS2, and that Vegeta also became thousands of times stronger before even going SSBE (considering he saw through Jiren's offense and struck him) and also has no basis other than UIS being much stronger than KKX20 Blue.

Also entirely possible, Post UIS Goku has really low evidence on getting stronger but then Post UIS2 Goku at his SSB fought a Jiren stronger than the one he fought when he used UIS for the first time. Do you realize how big of a gap that is?

SSB Goku >< Suppressed Jiren >> UIS1 Goku >< Heavily Suppressed Jiren >>> Vegito Blue and Merged Zamasu.

Meanwhile Vegito in his Base Form already surpassed SSB Goku from the Black arc. Pre UIS Goku is only as strong as this when using SSG. So Base or SSJ Goku post uis2 is already stronger than SSB Pre UIS/Post UIS1 Goku. That's a thousands of times worth of difference. UIS can also be thousands of times Blue because of the mere fact he should be comparable to FP SSJ Broly by virtue of being also comparable to GoD level. Let's also not forget that from fighting SSB Pre UIS Goku to fighting UIS1 Goku, Jiren powered up quite a lot.

Which Beerus denies as a measurement of Belmod being stronger with complete seriousness and Whis doesn't contradict him when Beerus says as such. We don't even know how much strength Beerus would have used in that contest in the first place, so it's a poor measure of strength relative to Beerus.

It's all we've got. Also I believe that if all GoDs were that far away from each other we would have a statement regarding so.

Goku Blue = 1x.

Belmod = Between Blue and UIS due to being much weaker than Jire

UIS Goku = At least 40x

Jiren = Stronger than UIS Goku in Base

SS Broly = 50x

SSG Gogeta = 10,000s of times

FPSS Broly and Beerus = Somewhere between SSG and SSB Gogeta

SSB Gogeta = 100,000s of times

It is quite literally impossible to claim or argue that Belmod is anywhere close to Beerus. Your only evidence for such a claim is a single arm wrestle, which Beerus rejects as a measure of power.

I don't like saying these are kinda made up numbers but they are, saying UIS3 Goku is almost thousands of times weaker than Beerus, Broly and Gogeta is silly. UIS multiplier shouldn't be accepted as 40x Blue because it has been portrayed to be way more than that. Him also reaching territory of the Gods and Jiren rumours about him being stronger than GoDs in general being confirmed should also make UIS3 Goku way stronger than you're saying he is at. Same goes for Belmod in this case because there's 0 evidence whatsoever of him being almost 1000x weaker than Beerus. It's better to assume they are close or equal, why would Beerus hold back in a arm wrestle? They are trying to prove who is stronger of them, and nobody broke the other's arm. Plus the fact Whis confirmed the rumour making Base Jiren stronger than Beerus and that should also mean both GoDs are comparable.

Beerus has never displayed difficulty observing Dyspo and has never been afraid or shocked by Goku or HIt. Champa was afraid of Goku and Hit briefly, when they were FAR weaker back when this occurred. There is a pretty notable gap in just the depiction of the two GoDs and the math would contradict Champa being anywhere close.

Except that Champa got briefly intimidated because he got caught off guard, he wasn't really expecting those looks. Later on he states he can easily take on both Goku and Hit. Beerus also got kinda scared, Whis told Beerus if he actually believed Goku surpassed him and Beerus got nervous. The Dyspo thing is just PIS, and it was to show how fast he was compared to his opponents. Or do you think Pre UIS SSG or Blue Goku is faster/stronger than Champa? I really doubt it.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

SSB Goku >< Suppressed Jiren >> UIS1 Goku >< Heavily Suppressed Jiren >>> Vegito Blue and Merged Zamasu.

The flaw with this assessment is how Goku, alone, was able to overpower Merged Zamasu and with the Kaio-Ken was capable of actually hurting and knocking Zamasu away. Unless Zamasu was holding back massively, we have no reason to think Zamasu was actually that much stronger than Goku Blue.

Meanwhile Vegito in his Base Form already surpassed SSB Goku from the Black arc. Pre UIS Goku is only as strong as this when using SSG.

Incorrect. Vegito was using SSG's power without transforming. Super Saiyan Blue is when a God goes Super Saiya and Toriyama states that Goku no longer needs to transform to use the power of SSG. You can argue that this was retconned, but Toriyama himself never states Goku and Vegeta can't go SSG, just that they can use its power without the need of transforming (similar to how Gohan can use all of his power without going Super Saiyan after the Old Kai ritual).

Since Vegito turned Blue from Base, he was obviously using the power of God without transforming.

That's a thousands of times worth of difference. UIS can also be thousands of times Blue because of the mere fact he should be comparable to FP SSJ Broly by virtue of being also comparable to GoD level.

I've already outlined, in-depth, why the 'GoD-level' claim is ridiculous. Are you claiming KKX20 Goku Blue and SSBE Vegeta are as strong as Beerus, or anywhere close, when SS Broly alone is 50x the power of Blue? Even assuming Goku didn't grow even slightly stronger after UIS2, SS Broly would still be in the range of twice GoD Toppo's power and would still be around UIS3 Goku's power.

The utterly ridiculous gap between GoD Toppo and Beerus (likely tens of thousands of times or more) already disproves the argument that GoDs are all around the same level. Bear in mind Beerus has been a God of Destruction for over 65 million years, and we have no idea how old any of the other GoDs are, barring Champa as Beerus' twin.

It's all we've got. Also I believe that if all GoDs were that far away from each other we would have a statement regarding so.

Even in the manga, when Beerus was stomping several GoDs, all we ever got was Goku claiming Beerus would have killed six of them with his Destruction Sphere and nothing more. Beerus hasn't been hyped even slightly in the manga despite this feat. Sidra even managed to use his barrier to save himself and the others, despite Goku claiming Beerus would have killed them if it hit.

I don't like saying these are kinda made up numbers but they are,

I'm going based on canonical multiplications and what's accepted on the wiki. They aren't made up.

saying UIS3 Goku is almost thousands of times weaker than Beerus, Broly and Gogeta is silly.

Goku grew stronger after every usage of -Sign- and would have likely grew stronger from UI. SS Broly and SS Gogeta are over 50x the power of Post-ToP Goku Blue, and we know Gogeta Blue and FPSS Broly are likely at least tens of thousands of times that (God > SS3 and Blue is God x SS).

I literally can't claim otherwise.

UIS multiplier shouldn't be accepted as 40x Blue because it has been portrayed to be way more than that

It's 'at least 40x Blue' due to that being the only estimate that is acceptable.

Also, regarding Zamasu scaling. Note that Potara was explained as sum of the parts multiplied by dozens of times in the ToP. This is obviously contradicted in the Broly film, but considering this explanation exists in the anime...? It's plausible to argue that Merged Zamasu was only around 50x stronger than Goku Blue in the first place, considering Zamasu would contribute little to no power to the Potara Fusion.

If we accept Vados' explanation as applying to Merged Zamasu and Vegito Blue in the Black arc of the anime (due to her explanation being used in said anime) we could argue the Author intent by the staff was for them to be dozens of times stronger than Goku and Vegeta.

With that in mind, UIS being at least 40x Blue and making Goku stronger than Zamasu after UIS2 is actually very reasonable.

Him also reaching territory of the Gods

AFTER the Tournament of Power, and Broly is 2.5x the power of KKX20 Blue.

Jiren rumours about him being stronger than GoDs in general being confirmed

A GoD. He is never referred to as surpassing GoDs plurally.

should also make UIS3 Goku way stronger than you're saying he is at.

Except Toppo is factually far FAR weaker than Beerus and UIS3 Goku and Base Jiren are at least twice Toppo's power.

Same goes for Belmod in this case because there's 0 evidence whatsoever of him being almost 1000x weaker than Beerus.

I have stacks of calculations, logic and argument that Beerus is far beyond any other GoD and that GoD level varies greatly. Whereas, you have no evidence of Belmod being anywhere close to Beerus outside of one claim that Beerus denied as a measure of Belmod's strength.

You have zero evidence of UIS and Jiren being thousands of times stronger than Blue.

why would Beerus hold back in a arm wrestle?

Why would he hold back against SSG Goku? It's clear that Beerus prefers to hold back against opponents for entertainment value so it would certainly be in-character for him.

They are trying to prove who is stronger of them,

Beerus already said that it isn't a measure of their power and Beerus has competed with others (such as Champa) in competitions not related to their power differences (tournaments, baseball games, comparing food, etc).

and nobody broke the other's arm.

Not sure how this is relevant, but you have nothing backing this claim.

Plus the fact Whis confirmed the rumour making Base Jiren stronger than Beerus

Whis has never stated that Jiren surpasses Beerus and has only ever mentioned that Jiren surpasses 'a GoD', which would refer to Belmod.

Bear in mind that ALL of the rumors relating to Jiren are contextually related to BELMOD. BELMOD made the rumors, BELMOD lost to Jiren and not even ONCE has Belmod had any backing as nearing Beerus to any degree, unless you count the arm wrestling claim that Beerus rejected.

Except that Champa got briefly intimidated because he got caught off guard, he wasn't really expecting those looks.

Then you could say Beerus being shocked by Jiren's power was just him being caught off-guard as well. Even then, it took JIREN to make Beerus get caught off-guard, whereas Champa freaked over KKX10 Blue and Hit.

Later on he states he can easily take on both Goku and Hit.

That's not the point being made. I am implying that Champa, being shocked by Goku and Hit, is evidence that he is far weaker than Beerus, who has never displayed such shock or fear relating to them.

Sidra, Champa and Helles have all shown fear towards Goku, Hit or Frieza and both Goku and Frieza are treated as fodder by Beerus with zero caution regarding them. This in itself shows a sharp difference in their confidence regarding their capabilities.

Beerus also got kinda scared, Whis told Beerus if he actually believed Goku surpassed him and Beerus got nervous.

Link this so I can see the context of your claim.

The Dyspo thing is just PIS, and it was to show how fast he was compared to his opponents.

We have never had anything contradicting it as PIS. You only claim as such due to Champa being unable to see Dyspo, and your preconception that Champa and Zeno must be fast enough to perceive people of Blue-level.

Or do you think Pre UIS SSG or Blue Goku is faster/stronger than Champa?

Depends on how far we take the scaling.

Champa freaks over KKX10 Goku Blue vs Hit

Goku, in his rematch with Hit, matches him in just Blue (meaning he is 10x stronger than before)

In the ToP, SSG Goku handles Dyspo while only briefly turning Blue when attacking. Hit is unable to react to Dyspo until adapting and took considerable damage from Dyspo, showing the gap in their powers isn't large. This implies Goku is 50x stronger since he fought Hit.

If we take all of this into account? ToP Goku Blue would be around 400-500x stronger than he was in the Destroyer's Tournament, when Champa was freaking over X10 Blue and Hit. If we divide that by 10, the gap between KKX10 Goku Blue and ToP Goku Blue is around 40-50x, at least.

So, yeah. The gap is pretty big, so it's plausible that Goku was around or surpassing Champa by the ToP.

 

[Omegas03]

The flaw with this assessment is how Goku, alone, was able to overpower Merged Zamasu and with the Kaio-Ken was capable of actually hurting and knocking Zamasu away. Unless Zamasu was holding back massively, we have no reason to think Zamasu was actually that much stronger than Goku Blue.

Except that Merged Zamasu powered up after getting knocked out and mutated by Goku Blue so it's a plausible thing. He went from getting beat up by Goku Blue Kaioken to go on par with Vegito Blue. That's actually a huge boost.

Incorrect. Vegito was using SSG's power without transforming. Super Saiyan Blue is when a God goes Super Saiya and Toriyama states that Goku no longer needs to transform to use the power of SSG. You can argue that this was retconned, but Toriyama himself never states Goku and Vegeta can't go SSG, just that they can use its power without the need of transforming (similar to how Gohan can use all of his power without going Super Saiyan after the Old Kai ritual).

The whole Two Base Theory doesn't really matter here. Base Gogeta in DBS Broly > SSB Goku in DBS Broly. And Gogeta wasn't using SSG power in Base because he used both SSJ and SSB afterwards. Base Vegito from the Black Arc should logically be stronger than Goku and Vegeta Blue. Every fusion in Base (Gotenks, Z Vegito, Kefla and DBS Gogeta) have been shown to be way stronger than the components at max. I don't see why it should be different in Black Arc Vegito's case.

I've already outlined, in-depth, why the 'GoD-level' claim is ridiculous. Are you claiming KKX20 Goku Blue and SSBE Vegeta are as strong as Beerus, or anywhere close, when SS Broly alone is 50x the power of Blue? Even assuming Goku didn't grow even slightly stronger after UIS2, SS Broly would still be in the range of twice GoD Toppo's power and would still be around UIS3 Goku's power.

The utterly ridiculous gap between GoD Toppo and Beerus (likely tens of thousands of times or more) already disproves the argument that GoDs are all around the same level. Bear in mind Beerus has been a God of Destruction for over 65 million years, and we have no idea how old any of the other GoDs are, barring Champa as Beerus' twin.

KKx20SSB Goku and SSBE Vegeta have no weight here because I am talking about UIO3 Goku and Base Jiren being as strong as Beerus. Also GoD Toppo shouldn't be taken in account when talking about a GoDs power because he is still in training tbh, and being anywhere from 2x to more stronger than GoD Toppo doesn't matter to UIO3 Goku tier if you aren't closing to GoD level.

Goku grew stronger after every usage of -Sign- and would have likely grew stronger from UI. SS Broly and SS Gogeta are over 50x the power of Post-ToP Goku Blue, and we know Gogeta Blue and FPSS Broly are likely at least tens of thousands of times that (God > SS3 and Blue is God x SS).

I literally can't claim otherwise.

and then Broly got compared to Beerus only when talking about Broly's max while Jiren at his Base should already be stronger than him. Multipliers hold no weight if statements dictate you're weaker. I still go by UIO3 and Base Jiren being comparable/stronger to Beerus/FPSSJ Broly level.

Even in the manga, when Beerus was stomping several GoDs, all we ever got was Goku claiming Beerus would have killed six of them with his Destruction Sphere and nothing more. Beerus hasn't been hyped even slightly in the manga despite this feat. Sidra even managed to use his barrier to save himself and the others, despite Goku claiming Beerus would have killed them if it hit.

Anime =/= Manga though. We haven't got such claims in the Anime.

I have stacks of calculations, logic and argument that Beerus is far beyond any other GoD and that GoD level varies greatly. Whereas, you have no evidence of Belmod being anywhere close to Beerus outside of one claim that Beerus denied as a measure of Belmod's strength.

You have zero evidence of UIS and Jiren being thousands of times stronger than Blue.

There's also zero evidence outside of the Manga of Belmod being massively weaker than Beerus, the only thing we've got like I said before is Whis saying that Belmod is stronger than Beerus. Beerus just talked about he only lost an Arm Wrestling match but nobody denied the affirmation Whis made about a GoD being > Beerus. You can't assume Belmod < Beerus even if the other GoDs are presumably way weaker than him, in fact, at least Belmod was compared once to Beerus. Let's be honest, that claim wasn't made for nothing. It was intended for Jiren and Belmod to be above Beerus.

Sidra, Champa and Helles have all shown fear towards Goku, Hit or Frieza and both Goku and Frieza are treated as fodder by Beerus with zero caution regarding them. This in itself shows a sharp difference in their confidence regarding their capabilities.

Sidra was actually confident he would easily destroy Frieza, he just showed concern/fear about Frieza's personality and the fact he would be a nuisance as a Tournament Opponent. When did Helles show any fear towards Frieza? Champa can be justified tbh. Beerus was excited to fight SSG and was concerned about SSBKKx10. These things can also be used against him.

Link this so I can see the context of your claim.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91EMTjIMcso (0:05-0:17) Whis automatically sees Beerus is concerned about Goku using the Kaioken technique in a match against him. Beerus was actually sweating and Whis asks if Beerus thinks that would be a problem, Beerus denies Whis' claims but you can see he was kinda nervous and sweating so it's obvious what happened imo.

We have never had anything contradicting it as PIS. You only claim as such due to Champa being unable to see Dyspo, and your preconception that Champa and Zeno must be fast enough to perceive people of Blue-level.

Then why Champa can perfectly see battles like the one between Goku and Jiren or Goku and Kefla? We are sure everyone in these fights are way faster than Dyspo. I repeat that it was just to show how fast was Dyspo compared to SSG&Blue tier characters.

Sorry for taking too long btw.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Except that Merged Zamasu powered up after getting knocked out and mutated by Goku Blue so it's a plausible thing. He went from getting beat up by Goku Blue Kaioken to go on par with Vegito Blue. That's actually a huge boost.

Your claim doesn't specify or scale Zamasu even slightly. Just saying "on par with Vegito Blue" doesn't really mean anything when we don't even know how strong Vegito Blue actually was.

The whole Two Base Theory doesn't really matter here.

It actually does. The Potara multiplier was used in the ToP arc, which was just after the Black arc, and episodes in anime are usually written...I think around 30 episodes in advance? The Broly film retcons the Fusion multiplier heavily but it doesn't even slightly alter the Author intent on the Black Arc scaling or how the anime itself depicted the multipliers at the time.

The gap between Vegito Blue, Merged Zamasu and Goku Blue has never been thousands of times, the very notion of this would contradict how the anime depicts and explains Potara Fusion.

KKx20SSB Goku and SSBE Vegeta

They do, considering we are scaling the Gods of Destruction.

Also GoD Toppo shouldn't be taken in account when talking about a GoDs power because he is still in training tbh,

Then, GoDs massively MASSIVELY vary in power level based on how much training and experience they have, and Beerus has over 65 million years of training and experience as a God of Destruction.

while Jiren at his Base should already be stronger than him.

Except, this is YOUR argument which I am disagreeing with. Your claims hold no weight without evidence of their validity.

I still go by UIO3 and Base Jiren being comparable/stronger to Beerus/FPSSJ Broly level.

You haven't provided any concrete evidence for this claim. All we know is that Jiren surpasses a GoD, Belmod and as you yourself clearly established above, GoDs vary wildly in power based on their experience and training.

Anime =/= Manga though. We haven't got such claims in the Anime.

I am establishing that Toyotaro and Toriyama don't even slightly hype Beerus' power. Toei goes based on an outline that Toriyama provides and shouldn't vary too greatly from the depiction of Beerus in the manga.

The manga itself, obviously, has no bearing on the anime canon but I am referencing the depiction of Beerus in the manga as lacking any hype for his power advantage over the rest of the GoDs, which brings into implication how much the anime would hype or note Beerus' relative power to the other GoDs.

There's also zero evidence outside of the Manga of Belmod being massively weaker than Beerus,

I've provided calculations, arguments and weight regarding Belmod being weaker than Base Jiren and Base Jiren being weaker than Beerus. Your only argument for Belmod being anywhere close to Beerus is an arm-wrestling match (which is rejected in the show itself) and Jiren surpassing a GoD, Belmod...which are rumours that Belmod perpetrated.

Please note that writers, advertisers, Toriyama, directors, etc have all claimed that Broly's power surpasses the level of the Gods of Destruction, plurally, and that Beerus is still comparable to FPSS Broly.

but nobody denied the affirmation Whis made about a GoD being > Beerus.

??? Beerus himself denies this, and Whis doesn't reject Beerus' denial. Who else is going to deny Whis' affirmation?

Let's be honest, that claim wasn't made for nothing.

It was made to hype up Jiren. Goku asked about any dangerous fighters, and Whis notes that there is the rumor of a GoD being unable to defeat a mortal (Belmod vs Jiren). Whis claims Belmod is stronger than Beerus but Beerus IMMEDIATELY reveals that he only ever lost to Belmod in a single arm wrestling match. Whis even mockingly laughs when he claims Belmod is stronger than Beerus.

It's very clear that Whis is teasing Beerus, trying to provoke him. Everything after this singular claim, which Whis is clearly joking about, disproves and resists it.

Sidra was actually confident he would easily destroy Frieza,

And? Sidra was far more afraid of Frieza than Beerus ever was.

When did Helles show any fear towards Frieza?

Scareis a strong word to use, but it's very clear that Frieza deeply unsettles her. You could claim it's simply ethics, but Beerus displays absolutely none of this hesitance, concern or confusion regarding Frieza's brutality. It's certainly clear that Helles either doesn't live in a particularly dangerous universe or has very little experience with dangerous people. If this is the case, then what kind of life or death experiences has she actually had?

Champa can be justified tbh.

Beerus was excited to see Goku's growth, because he literally had a prophecy spell out to him that a Super Saiyan God would be his match one day. He is seeing how quickly Goku is growing in a (relatively) short span of time.

Champa has none of this context and is spooked by Goku and Hit anyways, and has far less composure regarding their strength.

is automatically sees Beerus is concerned about Goku using the Kaioken technique in a match against him.

As I already explained above, Beerus has context for why he would be unnerved over Goku's power growth. He has a prophecy stating that a Super Saiyan God would be his match one day. Beerus slept most of the time between his fight with Goku and Frieza's revival, so from his perspective Goku has shot up by hundreds or thousands of times in the span of less than a year. He has no reason to even know about the Time Chamber either.

Beerus isn't concerned over Goku's current strength. He is concerned over Goku's strength relative to what it was just a year prior, and the prophecy that a SSG would match him one day.

Then why Champa can perfectly see battles like the one between Goku and Jiren or Goku and Kefla?

We don't see many reactions by Champa regarding Goku and Jiren. Champa never indicates he can perceive Goku or Kefla, he only notes that Kefla is way stronger than him. Note that Champa has an omnidirectional, universal+, energy sensing ability that can detect powers, health, etc. He can easily observe Goku and Kefla by just reading their energies.

The only instances of someone being unable to do this would be when Frieza completely mocked Goku and was completely invisible to him on Namek, and I don't recall how much energy Frieza was using to do so or even if it was mentioned how much power Frieza used for this feat.

The most power Frieza used against Base Goku, however, was 50% and we know Base Goku is around 3,000,000. So at most a 20x gap on Namek was able to evade Goku's senses with pure speed.

Of course, it's very clear that ki sensing has become refined and sharper over the series, considering Goku can detect and fight Hit with his eyes closed and Jiren can seemingly predict Hit's movements in another dimension somehow.

Sorry for taking too long btw.

Nah, it's fine. I tend to have gaps sometimes myself. I might have one after posting this.

 

[DTG499]

@CyroTheMayo

I'm seeing that this argument really comes down to the individual's interpretation of the reactions GoDs have to certain characters. To the point of champa being shocked by Hit and SSB KKx10 goku, that is deflated immediately when you consider that champa was about to murder Hit and would have died if Zeno didn't come, this was admitted by Hit as well.

So, you consider vados being unable to track dyspo as an outlier but why don't you consider Zeno and Champa being unable track him as an outlier?

I find it much more likely that Sidra was shocked from that fact that his universe is full of scumbags and he has never meet anyone as sinister as frieza. The reason beerus wasn't shocked by frieza is because he has known him for years, Beerus could have been shocked by how much of a genuine article scumbag frieza is when they first meet too.

I am establishing that Toyotaro and Toriyama don't even slightly hype Beerus' power. Toei goes based on an outline that Toriyama provides and shouldn't vary too greatly from the depiction of Beerus in the manga. The manga itself, obviously, has no bearing on the anime canon but I am referencing the depiction of Beerus in the manga as lacking any hype for his power advantage over the rest of the GoDs, which brings into implication how much the anime would hype or note Beerus' relative power to the other GoDs.

I don't understand where you are going with this. Are you trying to insinuate that Toryiama's outline for that he gave to the manga and anime has beerus as being the strongest GoD?

I've provided calculations, arguments and weight regarding Belmod being weaker than Base Jiren and Base Jiren being weaker than Beerus. Your only argument for Belmod being anywhere close to Beerus is an arm-wrestling match (which is rejected in the show itself) and Jiren surpassing a GoD, Belmod...which are rumours that Belmod perpetrated.

I mean the calculations only matter to the extent of where you put who on the equations. How to you know belmod was the one who started the rumors and why would it matter when whis said "It appears the rumors are true"

Please note that writers, advertisers, Toriyama, directors, etc have all claimed that Broly's power surpasses the level of the Gods of Destruction, plurally, and that Beerus is still comparable to FPSS Broly.

Cool I'd like to see links to the statement from all of them.

All in all, these gaps we are taking about can only be placed somewhere in-between 1.1x and 1.9x. We know for a fact the gap between to GoD's can only be less than a 2x gap from the statement on the champa and beerus brawl.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

To the point of champa being shocked by Hit and SSB KKx10 goku, that is deflated immediately when you consider that champa was about to murder Hit and would have died if Zeno didn't come, this was admitted by Hit as well.

I'm not implying or claiming that Champa wasn't much stronger than them. I'm claiming that Champa's reactions to them, relative to Beerus, makes him appear much weaker. Beerus has actual valid reasons to be shocked by Goku's power, Champa has no reason to freak over Goku and Hit glaring at him abruptly unless their powers were much closer to his, than they are to Beerus.

So, you consider vados being unable to track dyspo as an outlier but why don't you consider Zeno and Champa being unable track him as an outlier?

Vados was able to see Dyspo and had no visible difficulty doing so. Zeno and Champa both explicitly try to see Dyspo's movements and are incapable of doing so.

I find it much more likely that Sidra was shocked from that fact that his universe is full of scumbags and he has never meet anyone as sinister as frieza.

Sidra and Roh tremble when they see Frieza survived and slaughtered all of their assassins. Roh and Sidra start having an argument over Frieza with Roh questioning Sidra's ability to Hakai Frieza and before being cut off, Sidra says 'Don't worry, It'll be-' in a panicked tone of voice, before Frieza cuts them off.

Yes, you are right that Frieza's callousness is what causes such fear in Sidra and Roh, but their panic, arguing and Sidra trying to reassure Roh all show a lack of confidence in their ability to manage Frieza whereas Beerus immediately deals with Frieza and has great confidence in managing him.

I don't understand where you are going with this. Are you trying to insinuate that Toryiama's outline for that he gave to the manga and anime has beerus as being the strongest GoD?

I am insinuating that Toriyama places zero value or focus on the other Gods of Destruction. If Belmod (or any other GoD) being comparable to Beerus was part of his outline, he wouldn't have allowed Toyotaro to write Beerus stomping the other GoDs. This means either:

A) Beerus surpassing the other GoDs is in the outline

or

B) Beerus' power relative to other GoDs isn't firmly established in Toriyama's outline

Regardless of the case, it's very clear that other GoDs scaling to Beerus has never been part of Toriyama's outline. We can't say for sure if Beerus being above all the other GoDs is part of the outline, but we know GoDs varying greatly in power relative to Beerus is something that Toriyama has approved of, in the manga.

How to you know belmod was the one who started the rumors

Who else can spread rumors among Angels and other universes? Only Belmod and his attendant are known to have access to the multiverse in Universe 11. Maybe his attendant spread the rumors instead, but we have no clue regarding her character. I doubt Kai would have spread the rumors, seeing as that doesn't seem IC for him.

It's either Belmod, his attendent or Belmod AND his attendant that spread the rumor.

and why would it matter when whis said "It appears the rumors are true"

Again, the rumors are that there is a mortal that a God of Destruction can not defeat. That would just be Whis confirming that Jiren surpasses Belmod. It has no bearing relative to Beerus.

Cool I'd like to see links to the statement from all of them.

Sure. I'd have to go research all of the advertisements from a year or two ago though, however, as it isn't easy to track them down. Regardless, we at least have one statement here that indicates Broly surpasses power of a God of Destruction. This doesn't confirm that Broly surpasses the Gods of Destruction, plurally (as I had claimed) but it does indicate that Broly is within the same tier as Jiren. The only question is if he varies from Base Jiren to LB Jiren in the Angel > Jiren/UI Goku > GoD tier.

You could note the validity of the magazine statement, but Toriyama provides a comment in that same magazine and I imagine they would have to seek approval to make such statements or claims when advertising the film.

All in all, these gaps we are taking about can only be placed somewhere in-between 1.1x and 1.9x.

There is no real implication of this, and honestly I don't think it matters on the Wiki right now. Several people disagreed with me for claiming Gogeta should be over 2x Broly's power for stomping him casually due to other stomp examples in the series having not even a 10% gap. Hell, the Angels are only considered 'likely' 2-C due to Whis being 2x Beerus and Broly's power not even being accepted.

If we went with that interpretation, the entire gap between Belmod, Jiren and Whis could all be less than 2x.

We know for a fact the gap between to GoD's can only be less than a 2x gap

The only indication of Goku ever surpassing Beerus was a singular magazine scan claiming UI (Not UIS) Goku may have surpassed Beerus' power. Everything else would be mere extrapolation from claiming Base Jiren surpasses Belmod.

SS Broly is 50x Post-ToP Goku Blue. GoD Toppo is considerably weaker than that, at least. SS Gogeta and SS Broly are comparable. FPSS Broly pushed Gogeta from SS to SSB, which is a multi-thousand times gap at the least. Broly and Beerus are comparable in strength.

So, no. If you are claiming Belmod and Beerus are around the same level and both GoD-tier, the GoD-tier would vary wildly by thousands of times. My claim is that Beerus actually surpasses the level of a God of Destruction.

from the statement on the champa and beerus brawl.

As I already argued. Beerus has no reason to go all out on Champa. They are siblings that have childish competitions and squabbles with Champa having zero pride or interest in being stronger than Beerus. Beerus himself finds enjoyment in suppressing to extremely low levels of power and fighting SSG Goku, their clashes nearly destroying the entire universe.

Beerus could absolutely suppress himself massively down to Champa's level, and would have zero issue with doing such a thing. The only contradiction is that Whis and Vados claim Beerus and Champa fighting would destroy both Universe 6 and 7, when Beerus was willing to nullify Universe 7's destruction and should, logically, be capable of stopping Champa's Hakai.

But even the claims that Beerus could stop the erasure of Universe 6 and 7 make little sense. Frieza is far weaker than Sidra and was capable of stopping and overpowering his Hakai. Sidra claims no one can survive it unscathed when Frieza stopped it unscathed . He only displays some exhaustion from controlling the energy.

Either Sidra was referring only to his OWN universe or he believed his energy could damage anyone (barring presumably Gods of Destruction and Angels). If his assessment was correct, the only way Frieza would have stopped the Hakai unscathed would be due to his Ki Control (considering that's exactly what he used).

With that in mind, stopping Hakai energy seems it can scale on AP (based on Vegeta vs Toppo) or Ki Control (based on Frieza controlling the energy unscathed).

Beerus could stop Champa's Hakai with pure AP, but we have no indication if he could stop Champa's Destruction energy if equalised, considering Sidra and Frieza seem to imply Hakai can be stopped with Ki Control. We even see that Frieza can briefly stop and slow a Hakai from someone as powerful as Toppo despite their power gap being huge.

Thus, I must conclude there are too many unknown variables at play to claim whether or not Champa and Beerus could stop eachother from destroying Universe 6 and 7. We can claim Beerus could overpower Champa's Hakai, but that energy output could also end up destroying the universe (considering Champa is stronger than KKX10 Blue, which would make him at least thousands or tens of thousands of times universal and Beerus would need to overpower that) but we can not claim if Beerus could stop Champa's Hakai at an equalised level. Intuitively, it makes sense for GoDs to have extreme control over Hakai, but it seems like it's actually Ki Control that manipulates Hakai, which means GoDs wouldn't inherently be capable of controlling or stopping the Hakais of others.

Overall, it depends on whether or not Beerus has the Ki Control to control and stop Champa's Hakai. If Beerus powered up to negate Champa's Hakai with AP, that could also result in the universes being destroyed and if Beerus clashes evenly with Champa, they risk Universe 6 and 7 and, as I said already, Beerus and Champa are both extremely childish and competitive siblings so I don't picture Beerus trying to one-shot Champa to stop their bickering early, especially considering Beerus has never displayed malice or a desire to harm Champa.

 

[Quibster]

Sheesh...

This is just like the Silvers Rayleigh vs Charlotte Katakuri Match.

We'll never reach a conclusion at the rate we're going.

We would have in the previous thread.

But everyone either doesn't understand DBS power scaling, is a million feet deep into their own head-canon, hasn't watched Dragon Ball Super, or Dragon Ball Super: Broly...

...Or simply all of the above.

Close this mess. Or go straight to voting with valid reasons as to why behind your vote. Right now, people are having to explain Power Scaling in DBS― which nobody should have to do here.

 

[ZERO7772]

Can you balme them? Promo magazine says one thing, manga says another, anime says another, add that to all the headcanon users creat and no wonder we have such a mess.

The though of Jiren being FAR stronger than Beerus is stuipd from a narrtive standpoint cuz the story never point that out despite him being a movig goal point all this time.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Nobody is even debating this though. It's LB Jiren vs SS Broly, and obvious stomp. I'm not even sure why this thread is still open lmfao.

I'm just debating with two others, regarding how SS Broly compares to Base Jiren and Beerus' scaling, because it's deepening my understanding of the scaling and implications of statements. It has no actual relation to the thread topic.

 

[Quibster]

These discussions about verse power scaling don't belong in a Versus Thread.

Close this match, or start voting― this is just getting redundant.

People should know about power scaling― based on what this forum says about the verse(s), based on what the profiles say, and based on actual scans and credible calcs; and not hypothetical crap and theories.

Keep the head-canon out of here.

 

[Shubham_Sonsurkar]

Limit Breaker Jiren in character is pissed and this is not TOP so he can kill Broly if he wants to without holding back.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Profiles aren't credible on their own. Many of them don't provide appropriate sources or citations that can be used to justify or argue the abilities and capabilities of the characters. You still have to provide scans, calculations and arguments on your own to reach a conclusion, especially when contrasting the opposing character.

There is no formal authority on what is 'credible' in regards to calculations or what profiles say. Nobody on this wiki is a credible source of actual canon or scaling, it's just our own interpretations of the verses. I'd argue Px calcs are a load of BS that have absolutely zero weight on powerscaling or feats, but quite a few people would disagree.

 

[ZERO7772]

Jiren's profile says that he's stronger than all of the GoD in hisheavy suppressed state until they recently fixed it.

******* Toppo would stomps Jiren cuz of EE haxx when this couldnt be furthere from the truth in the actual show.

I still remember that Broly vs Toppo shitshow we had few months ago.

 

[The_Calaca]

I've been informed that this thread has been derailed and I wouldn't be surprised if it has turned into a toxic place, so I'll close it due to the request of doing so.