Boros's Ship Rating Justification

[Golden_Void]

and it partially withstood it, at least enough for it to shield the insides from saitama blasting through it
which means it downscales from high 6-A durability, case closed.

Reopens case
You are using the duo breaking through to the top-side of the ship as the benchmark for the durability of the ship, when I've already explained - and will probably have to keep explaining - how and when the durability has failed far sooner than that. Saitama not only heavily damaged the ship where he landed, but the force also tipped the whole ship down which lead to even further damage once it made contact with the ground.

In fact, we already have standards for how we classify machine damage on the regeneration page, which explicitly states that damage exists.

Mid-Low: The ability to heal wounds that would normally leave large scars, such as severe burns or deep injuries. For machines and vehicles, this would be regenerating damage that would normally leave large dents and openings.

High-Low: The ability to regenerate severed fingers, toes, or ears, minor organ damage, and even potentially reattach lost limbs. For machines and vehicles, this would be regenerating some interior damage, along with some minor critically damaged or destroyed parts.

I am baffled as to why you are bringing this up as if this somehow is a negative thing for my claim? That's like the entire point of the scaling. Moon jump wasn't enough to break it, but attacks stronger than it are. What are you even trying to argue????????

Because that means even weaker attacks on the same tier severely damage the ship, and the jump is only measured at a little over 2x baseline high 6-A.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Reopens case
You are using the duo breaking through to the top-side of the ship as the benchmark for the durability of the ship, when I've already explained - and will probably have to keep explaining - how and when the durability has failed far sooner than that. Saitama not only heavily damaged the ship where he landed, but the force also tipped the whole ship down which lead to even further damage once it made contact with the ground.

In fact, we already have standards for how we classify machine damage on the regeneration page, which explicitly states that damage exists.

Mid-Low: The ability to heal wounds that would normally leave large scars, such as severe burns or deep injuries. For machines and vehicles, this would be regenerating damage that would normally leave large dents and openings.

Large dents are less damage than openings, nor does this even qualify as evidence that being dented means it can’t downscale from the moon jump.

Where do you even draw the line? If a guy punches someone else and he doesn’t have visible damage, guy 1’s AP doesn’t scale to guy 2’s durability, but if guy 1 punches guy 2 with the force of a supernova and guy two has a slightly fractured skull, by your logic guy 2 would just be 9-C because “he took some damage no way he scales!!!!!!!” Just because there was a dent doesn’t change the fact that the ship quite literally is capable of stopping a high 6-A attack from piercing through it and endured the attack. It downscales, and that’s just an undeniable fact.

Also the ship didn’t barely even touched the ground until after the fight ended and that didn’t even do extra damage to the ship, so unsurprisingly I guess you just have a tendency to make things up out of thin air and use it as an argument.

High-Low: The ability to regenerate severed fingers, toes, or ears, minor organ damage, and even potentially reattach lost limbs. For machines and vehicles, this would be regenerating some interior damage, along with some minor critically damaged or destroyed parts.

There was no internal damage at all, why would you even put this in your post.

Because that means even weaker attacks on the same tier severely damage the ship, and the jump is only measured at a little over 2x baseline high 6-A.

Which makes more sense?
1. Ship endured high 6-A attack, attacks that it fails to endure are stronger.
2. Ship endures high 6-A attack, weaker attacks (I decided that they’re weaker because it’s convenient and helps me make up bullshit easier) later damage it, so clearly the high 6-A durability feat is fiction and never happened.

 

[Golden_Void]

Large dents are less damage than openings, nor does this even qualify as evidence that being dented means it can’t downscale from the moon jump.

Where do you even draw the line? If a guy punches someone else and he doesn’t have visible damage, guy 1’s AP doesn’t scale to guy 2’s durability, but if guy 1 punches guy 2 with the force of a supernova and guy two has a slightly fractured skull, by your logic guy 2 would just be 9-C because “he took some damage no way he scales!!!!!!!” Just because there was a dent doesn’t change the fact that the ship quite literally is capable of stopping a high 6-A attack from piercing through it and endured the attack. It downscales, and that’s just an undeniable fact.

Comparing people to materials is a false equivalence. Material durability is black and white, and durability dealing with living beings, especially in fiction has several shades of gray.

Also the ship didn’t barely even touched the ground until after the fight ended and that didn’t even do extra damage to the ship, so unsurprisingly I guess you just have a tendency to make things up out of thin air and use it as an argument.

"Barely even touched the ground" "Didn't do extra damage"
But I'm the one making stuff up.

There was no internal damage at all, why would you even put this in your post.

I could drop you like 10 scans right now, but this one will suffice.

Which makes more sense?
1. Ship endured high 6-A attack, attacks that it fails to endure are stronger.
2. Ship endures high 6-A attack, weaker attacks (I decided that they’re weaker because it’s convenient and helps me make up bullshit easier) later damage it, so clearly the high 6-A durability feat is fiction and never happened.

Option 3, neither.
I refuse to continue this debate with you though because you are literally wasting my time with ad hominem and ad nauseam arguments.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah, but the ship isn't a being that can take a bruise, which we would consider durability in the case of a person. If a material breaks it is objectively not that durable.

The only time the ship wouldn't scale is if it was shattered by the impact or was completely pierced. The fact it remained intact is actually a durability feat, especially since the impact would concentrate all the force wherever Saitama landed.

 

[Golden_Void]

The only time the ship wouldn't scale is if it was shattered by the impact or was completely pierced. The fact it remained intact is actually a durability feat, especially since the impact would concentrate all the force wherever Saitama landed.

But by what established standard are we saying it has to be the entire ship? When Boros and Saitama broke through the surface and viol. dragged the ship's metal, that damage was only in scale to two people. The entire ship is literally a floating city, layered upon itself. From here it looks like we're ok with saying "they only broke people-sized material which is why they scale, but they have to be able to destroy a majority of the ship in one go for it not to scale."

 

[Qawsedf234]

But by what established standard are we saying it has to be the entire ship?

The profile for Boros/the ship should be explained better but from memory it's two sets of scaling that stem from the moon jump

• Moon Jump -> Ship -> Throne Room being made of stronger material -> Released Boros damaging the Throne Room
• Moon Jump -> Ship -> Released Boros' energy blast damaging a notable portion -> MB Boros replicating that damage with a charged punch

The entire ship is literally a floating city, layered upon itself.

Yeah, it's big. But it ultimately remained intact from Saitama's impact and it wasn't pierced completely through or shattered. In my view: MB Boros scales to the Moon Jump because he effected a greater/equal volume of material than Saitama effected. Tornado would downscale becausw she caused relatively minor damage with a sustained bombardment and Released Boros (without his energy attacks) would also down scale, since even if the Throne is made of stronger stuff he effect orders of magnitude less material.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

But by what established standard are we saying it has to be the entire ship? When Boros and Saitama broke through the surface and viol. dragged the ship's metal, that damage was only in scale to two people. The entire ship is literally a floating city, layered upon itself. From here it looks like we're ok with saying "they only broke people-sized material which is why they scale, but they have to be able to destroy a majority of the ship in one go for it not to scale."

Qawsed quite specifically said “concentrated” force of saitama’s landing
literally everything you just said has nothing to do with what you replied to.

Comparing people to materials is a false equivalence. Material durability is black and white, and durability dealing with living beings, especially in fiction has several shades of gray.

"Barely even touched the ground" "Didn't do extra damage"
But I'm the one making stuff up.

I could drop you like 10 scans right now, but this one will suffice.

Option 3, neither.
I refuse to continue this debate with you though because you are literally wasting my time with ad hominem and ad nauseam arguments.

The 1st scan you posted shows the ship not taking additional damage from the fall, the 2nd one shows a literal completely different scene, and the 3rd one literally is the 23% damage saitama did long before the moon feat?????????? What the hell are you even doing?

 

[ZillertheBucko]

The profile for Boros/the ship should be explained better but from memory it's two sets of scaling that stem from the moon jump

• Moon Jump -> Ship -> Throne Room being made of stronger material -> Released Boros damaging the Throne Room
• Moon Jump -> Ship -> Released Boros' energy blast damaging a notable portion -> MB Boros replicating that damage with a charged punch

Yeah, it's big. But it ultimately remained intact from Saitama's impact and it wasn't pierced completely through or shattered. In my view: MB Boros scales to the Moon Jump because he effected a greater/equal volume of material than Saitama effected. Tornado would downscale becausw she caused relatively minor damage with a sustained bombardment and Released Boros (without his energy attacks) would also down scale, since even if the Throne is made of stronger stuff he effect orders of magnitude less material.

Ch25 page 26, Released Boros actually breaks clean through the top of the ship while the moon jump was unable to do so, meaning he would actually scale directly above the moon jump feat
Also the whole melting large sections of the ship would be enough say he did vastly more damage than the moon feat, which would be upscaling from it as well.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Ch25 page 26, Released Boros actually breaks clean through the top of the ship while the moon jump was unable to do so, meaning he would actually scale directly above the moon jump feat

He did so from the inside going out, while Saitama was outside going in. Plenty of things are good at handling force from oneside and not the other, which is why I generally think Throne Room scaling is better for Boros.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

He did so from the inside going out, while Saitama was outside going in. Plenty of things are good at handling force from oneside and not the other, which is why I generally think Throne Room scaling is better for Boros.

Well in that case, I’d say breaking throne room pillars in half is still enough to scale above only making a big dent in the top of the ship, but I see your point.

 

[Therefir]

Honestly, that crater is pretty minuscule compared to the size of the ship, I have no issues with keeping its current durability.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I think that it should just downscale, especially since we have feats of characters destroying smaller pieces of the ship which aren’t as strong as armored Boros or anything
as noted, Boros’ profile would be unchanged since his attacks themselves scale directly above the moon jump.

 

[Golden_Void]

The profile for Boros/the ship should be explained better but from memory it's two sets of scaling that stem from the moon jump

• Moon Jump -> Ship -> Throne Room being made of stronger material -> Released Boros damaging the Throne Room
• Moon Jump -> Ship -> Released Boros' energy blast damaging a notable portion -> MB Boros replicating that damage with a charged punch

But then there's also:
1. Boros and Saitama slam each other into the throne room pillars -> doesn't move the ship
2. Saitama jumps from the moon -> nearly flips the ship over, despite the throne room having the strongest material structure

Feat 2 begs the question of why Feat 1 didn't easily accomplish the same feat but better.

Yeah, it's big. But it ultimately remained intact from Saitama's impact and it wasn't pierced completely through or shattered.

Their fighting that broke through the top of the ship has minuscule resistance, compared to Saitama who had the counter the mass of the entire ship + the constant force being applied to it to allow it to levitate.

The issue here is the presentation of feats is manipulated to make the moon jump feat a supporting feat instead of calling it what it is - an anti-feat. Saitama literally went around for four minutes very casually putting holes in the ship, destroying 23% of the ship. The amount of ship-busting feats make the moon jump failure possibly the only outlier in terms of completely piercing. I still maintain that material durability is classified long before complete puncture or fragmentation. Permanent deformation is also an example.

Also, the calc for the jump itself has 6.6240681e23 cubic centimeters of basalt, which is 1.79e18 tons of mass violently fragmented. Using the current measurement of the ship being 29km long, even assuming the ship is a perfect rectangle with 0% hollowness while using the density of steel, a quick calc only puts the mass of the ship at 5.5e12 tons of mass. Is it supposed to be believable that Saitama got stopped by the ship over the surface area of just his two feet when he violently fragmented over 300,000 times the ship's mass with pure force over the span of 2000 kilometers (~70x the ship's length)?

 

[ByAsura]

The basalt isn't held in place by a gravity core, so I don't see that as a reason.

Anyway, this is getting tedious, and we're covering a lot of ground we've already been over. I say we just put the ship page as Unknown (Survived Saitama's moon jump, although it damaged the ship and compromised its gravity core) and call it a day so we can move on.

I also think it makes some sense. The damages are extend beyond purely the surface (though definitely not to the extent of Boros' fuckery) given the gravity core and how shockwaves are still happening after it collapses partially, implying that Tats isn't responsible for all of them. Boros scaling (or even downscaling to an extent that's definitely still Multi-Continent level) is more than enough.

IIRC, we tend to go by output per square metre for armour calculations and stuff, anyway.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Feat 2 begs the question of why Feat 1 didn't easily accomplish the same feat but better.

Feat 1 involves more structural damage than Feat 2. While Saitama moved the ship in the end he only dented the top section. While Boros was actively smashing through pillars.

Is it supposed to be believable that Saitama got stopped by the ship over the surface area of just his two feet when he violently fragmented over 300,000 times the ship's mass with pure force over the span of 2000 kilometers (~70x the ship's length)?

Yeah, because it happened. The ship is made of unknown alien metal in a universe already filled with unrealistic depections of material strength like with Metal Knight's buildings.

Saitama damaging a portion of the moon and not the ship just means the ship is tougher than the area of the moon Saitama jumped off of.

Anyway, this is getting tedious, and we're covering a lot of ground we've already been over. I say we just put the ship page as Unknown (Survived Saitama's moon jump, although it damaged the ship and compromised its gravity core) and call it a day so we can move on.

Wouldn't "At most High 6-A" fit better then?

 

[ByAsura]

I wouldn't say so, honestly.

Like I said in the message you're quoting, the damages are definitely much more than just surface deep, but not to an extent where Boros doesn't scale.

 

[Golden_Void]

Feat 1 involves more structural damage than Feat 2. While Saitama moved the ship in the end he only dented the top section. While Boros was actively smashing through pillars.

Breaking several throne room pillars to the point where the sheer KE superheats the metal would be more damaging in my mind.

Yeah, because it happened. The ship is made of unknown alien metal in a universe already filled with unrealistic depections of material strength like with Metal Knight's buildings.

Which brings me back to it being an anti-feat because that makes negative sense in a show that generally tries making sense with their feats

Saitama damaging a portion of the moon and not the ship just means the ship is tougher than the area of the moon Saitama jumped off of.

That ship isn't tougher than almost half a million times its mass unless its made of neutronium. Especially when its only reference for toughness is being stronger than steel.

Still agree with asura.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

An unknown rating here would be insane
it quite clearly withstood the attack with medium damage, just a dent and a little debris flying
This is the very definition of what downscaling is used for. Ship endures hit with medium amount of damage, it downscales. According to the durability page, the scaling entirely is reserved exclusively for situations in which something survives a hit but with massive amounts of damage, or said hit blows a hole through the material, which did not happen.

 

[Damage3245]

Isn't this a bit like arguing is Superman punches a villain into the side of a building, and a crater forms in the building but the majority of the building is intact.... so then the random skyscraper in Metropolis is Planet level in durability?

Why do we need to give the ship a durability level at all when Saitama almost never displays the proper effects on his environment that his attacks should have anyway?

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Isn't this a bit like arguing is Superman punches a villain into the side of a building, and a crater forms in the building but the majority of the building is intact.... so then the random skyscraper in Metropolis is Planet level in durability?

Why do we need to give the ship a durability level at all when Saitama almost never displays the proper effects on his environment that his attacks should have anyway?

The ship is noted multiple times to be made out of a durable alien metal, so scaling the durability is much more valuable than scaling the durability of random city buildings that don’t have any significance to a fight
we will give the ship a durability rating because it has a durability feat.

 

[Golden_Void]

Isn't this a bit like arguing is Superman punches a villain into the side of a building, and a crater forms in the building but the majority of the building is intact.... so then the random skyscraper in Metropolis is Planet level in durability?

Exactly.

Why do we need to give the ship a durability level at all when Saitama almost never displays the proper effects on his environment that his attacks should have anyway?

Because it's used for backscaling. There's no other reason it even matters.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

We are not gonna say “well I feel like we shouldn’t give it a durability rating at all” as a counterargument against the very clear durability feat that it has shown.

 

[ByAsura]

The ship is noted multiple times to be made out of a durable alien metal, so scaling the durability is much more valuable than scaling the durability of random city buildings that don’t have any significance to a fight

It was stated once in the databook.

Honestly, the fact that everyone and their mums breaks the ship, including Geryuanshoop breaking fragments, shows the opposite. But, unlike Void, I'm not saying that's an anti-feat itself.

it quite clearly withstood the attack with medium damage, just a dent and a little debris flying

As I showed, there was much more damage below the surface.

 

[Golden_Void]

Honestly, the fact that everyone and their mums breaks the ship, including Geryuanshoop breaking fragments, shows the opposite. But, unlike Void, I'm not saying that's an anti-feat itself.

I'm saying the jump not obliterating the ship or at least puncturing the ship is the only anti-feat, considering as I said above, Saitama was putting holes through the exterior of the ship from the interior of the ship extremely casually for four minutes.

There's no amount of explaining on the planet that will convince me that Saitama leaving a crater more than half the length of the moon is inferior to the power he used casually kicking doors down.

 

[ByAsura]

That's not what I'm referring to, but I agree that wrecking the throne room door is inferior to the moon jump.

This is actually my point; Geryu wrecking a tiny bit of rubble and thinking he can beat Saitama shouldn't make him High 6-A. At that point, he'd bashed down the door and spent minutes rampaging throughout the ship to damage 23% of its systems, when the moon jump compromised part of the ship.

 

[Golden_Void]

That's not what I'm referring to, but I agree that wrecking the throne room door is inferior to the moon jump.

This is actually my point; Geryu wrecking a tiny bit of rubble and thinking he can beat Saitama shouldn't make him High 6-A. At that point, he'd bashed down the door and spent minutes rampaging throughout the ship to damage 23% of its systems, when the moon jump compromised part of the ship.

I agree with that, especially since Saitama treated Groribas like a side-character who is supposed to be the strongest commander.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Void's entire argument is based on the fallacy that the moon jump somehow has to be stronger than saitama's other punches, which is the most backwards ass logic when the moon jump literally does less damage.

As I showed, there was much more damage below the surface.

in the moon kick panel it is shown that tatsumaki is unleashing a basically nonstop barrage of rubble at it and causing explosions, so there's not really any proof that the moon jump did any additional damage below the surface somehow.
Also, only making a human sized dent on the top while making a ton of explosions like that at the bottom is quite literally just impossible unless the shockwaves somehow got farther the more they travelled.

 

[Damage3245]

Saitama landing on top of the ship did not make a "human-sized dent". The second panel shows a large crater on the ship's surface, and also the entire ship is tilted by the force of Saitama's landing.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Saitama landing on top of the ship did not make a "human-sized dent". The second panel shows a large crater on the ship's surface, and also the entire ship is tilted by the force of Saitama's landing.

I meant human sized in terms of depth of the dent.

Also, the ship tilting is completely irrelevant as I’m sure everyone else already figured out, since the ship being unable to not be knocked down doesn’t actually mean anything for the durability

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Saitama landing on top of the ship did not make a "human-sized dent". The second panel shows a large crater on the ship's surface

The later panel shows a crater not much bigger than Saitama himself

 

[ZillertheBucko]

So the crater being small is more consistent to begin with then
interesting

 

[Damage3245]

The later panel shows a crater not much bigger than Saitama himself

Sure, though that doesn't make a lot of sense since when we actually see Saitama landing on the ship, the impact is already bigger than what the later panels show, let alone the wide shot of the crater.

It would be a bit cherrypicking to say "Saitama only made a crater as big as himself when he landed on the ship, so the ship has High 6-A durability on every square meter of its surface area" for example.

 

[Damage3245]

Also, getting into the topic of the ship scaling itself; Saitama's Moon landing onto the top of the ship had way more of an effect on it than any of Tatsumaki's barrages.

That makes Psykos scaling to the ship's durability questionable in my opinion.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Sure, though that doesn't make a lot of sense since when we actually see Saitama landing on the ship, the impact is already bigger than what the later panels show, let alone the wide shot of the crater.

It would be a bit cherrypicking to say "Saitama only made a crater as big as himself when he landed on the ship, so the ship has High 6-A durability on every square meter of its surface area" for example.

Actually, it’s cherry picking to say that the crater was as massive as you said it is, since that is still not the consistent size.
Regardless, you’re dodging the fact that the ground directly in contact with saitama’s feet did not break
The ship is capable of shielding a high 6-A attack from breaking through it, so it downscales.

 

[ByAsura]

Honestly, I've stopped caring about this. Tag me when the argument is over and I'll do the accepted changes.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Honestly, I've stopped caring about this. Tag me when the argument is over and I'll do the accepted changes.

You’ve left me here to try and convince damage to disagree with a opm downgrade

️️️️

️️️️️
️️️

 

[Damage3245]

Actually, it’s cherry picking to say that the crater was as massive as you said it is, since that is still not the consistent size.
Regardless, you’re dodging the fact that the ground directly in contact with saitama’s feet did not break
The ship is capable of shielding a high 6-A attack from breaking through it, so it downscales.

The ground did break, we see debris everywhere when he lands.

 

[Golden_Void]

Funny thing is that crater was drawn smaller each time it was shown.

What's happening here is we are using an outlier to support a premise that doesn't make sense. That faulty premise is, that there was more energy being used in Saitama playing hide and seek for 4 minutes than the energy that could literally span two-thirds of the moon's diameter.

The second is, even if the ship did downscale from High 6-A, Saitama's jump factually overcame the durability of the ship which is why there was a crater in the first place. The jump itself is only a little over twice baseline High 6-A so it would be upper 6-A at best. But that's ignoring literally every feat showing the ship not being destroyed by extremely casual blows that clearly don't compare to Saitama's moon output.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

The ground did break, we see debris everywhere when he lands.

Only parts of the surface broke, but the ground under his feet quite clearly didn’t break, so that’s kinda like saying that someone surviving a nuke’s epicenter but with some paper cuts all over them means that they can’t downscale because it did a little damage to them. Just because it got damaged doesn’t mean it can’t still downscale for having endured the attack overall.

 

[Golden_Void]

Bump.