Bloons Tower Defense RANGE and some Quincy problens

[Noneless21]

Oh, also Psi, tho he has infinite range already

 

[FRIMI]

oh also, COBRA (ability and arguably bloon adjustment & attrition only), supermonkey storm, bloonsday device, and surprisingly NOT bloonchipper.

Despite what my profile picture might suggest, I do not know about, nor care about, bloons adventure time. If any characters there have infinite range which iirc only affects Max on this wiki, then they weren't mentioned

 

[JustANormalLemon]

By the way, for future reference and for convenience sake, all the infinite range towers are bomb shooter (abilities only), tack shooter (5/x/x meteor attack and abilities only), sniper monkey, monkey sub (2+/x/x, ability, and pre-emptive strike only), monkey buccaneer (top path and paragon planes, abilities, and paragon auto-hooks only), monkey ace, mortar monkey, dartling gunner (not bottom path), wizard monkey (phoenix('s) only), super monkey (x/x/5 black hole, 4+/x/x planes & missiles only, possibly VTSG death hax), ninja monkey (master bomber/paragon bomb only), alchemist (bottom path golden potion only) (technically also tier 5 ability, but this is not used offensively, similar to dart monkey and engineer ability), druid (x/3+/x vine attack and x/5/x vines only), spike factory (ability only), monkey village (5/x/x ballista attack only), Quincy (storm of arrows only), Striker Jones (concussive shell only), Psi (not psychic blast), Churchill (MOAB Barrage only), Benjamin (trojan only), Ezili (MOAB hex only), Adora (ball of light only, possibly blood sacrifice), Brickell (mega mine only), Etienne (UCAV only), and lastly Sauda is weird because she technically only ever has extended melee range but also has unlimited range on both her abilities which have her physically move to attack bloons so she never actually attacks outside her melee range.

I didn't include any abilities that just affect the entire map, rather only ones that explicitly have attacks that can target bloons across the map. Abilities that affect the whole map would add bomb shooter (abilities and bomb blitz ability only) ice monkey (abilities only), glue gunner (abilities only), (technically monkey ace and mortar monkey abilities but they already had unlimited range to begin with), ninja monkey (master bomber/paragon bomb, and abilities only), Gwendolin (firestorm only), and Ezili (heartstopper and MOAB hex only),

This will be very usefull

I will try to compilate the towers thst the projectiles don't have a "time limit" as well if you think It woukd be usefull (Trough I don't have all heros yet...)

 

[JustANormalLemon]

oh also, COBRA (ability and arguably bloon adjustment & attrition only), supermonkey storm, bloonsday device, and surprisingly NOT bloonchipper

Supermonkey storm is kinda a odd ball here sinse thecnicaly is just a bunch of supermonkeys stacking all bloons on screen meele

 

[FRIMI]

not entirely sure what you mean by time limit. Are you talking about how long until the projectiles expire gameplay wise? Because nothing on this list has that property anyway. Only exception I can think of might be 2/x/x monkey sub but even then it hardly matters for our purposes

 

[JustANormalLemon]

not entirely sure what you mean by time limit. Are you talking about how long until the projectiles expire gameplay wise? Because nothing on this list has that property anyway

Yes, but there is also towers thst their projectiles can travel non stop but still only atack in that range, Superstorm ball of lightining and tornados being the biggest one I can think of

 

[FRIMI]

oh that's what you mean. I mean to my knowledge all of those projectiles also expire eventually except the lightning (not ball of lightning). Could be wrong on that

 

[Qawsedf234]

Bloons Monkey City scaling which despite very much not being ideal, is probably the best we've got for scaling distance measurements consistently

I'm with this personally

 

[JustANormalLemon]

oh that's what you mean. I mean to my knowledge all of those projectiles also expire eventually except the lightning (not ball of lightning). Could be wrong on that

The thing is they basicaly all do that outside ofr the screen, and would be just a lag switch if they keept forever

And I'm talking If they miss their target

So I will count any that only disapear outside the player field of view

 

[JustANormalLemon]

With the exeption of top path dart monkey upgrades sinse they bounce so they need toe desapear inside the screen

 

[FRIMI]

By the way, for future reference and for convenience sake, all the infinite range towers are bomb shooter (abilities only), tack shooter (5/x/x meteor attack and abilities only), sniper monkey, monkey sub (2+/x/x, ability, and pre-emptive strike only), monkey buccaneer (top path and paragon planes, abilities, and paragon auto-hooks only), monkey ace, mortar monkey, dartling gunner (not bottom path), wizard monkey (phoenix('s) only), super monkey (x/x/5 black hole, 4+/x/x planes & missiles only, possibly VTSG death hax), ninja monkey (master bomber/paragon bomb only), alchemist (bottom path golden potion only) (technically also tier 5 ability, but this is not used offensively, similar to dart monkey and engineer ability), druid (x/3+/x vine attack and x/5/x vines only), spike factory (ability only), monkey village (5/x/x ballista attack only), Quincy (storm of arrows only), Striker Jones (concussive shell only), Psi (not psychic blast), Churchill (MOAB Barrage only), Benjamin (trojan only), Ezili (MOAB hex only), Adora (ball of light only, possibly blood sacrifice), Brickell (mega mine only), Etienne (UCAV only), Sauda is weird because she technically only ever has extended melee range but also has unlimited range on both her abilities which have her physically move to attack bloons so she never actually attacks outside her melee range, COBRA (ability and arguably bloon adjustment & attrition only), and bloonsday device.

I didn't include any abilities that just affect the entire map, rather only ones that explicitly have attacks that can target bloons across the map. Abilities that affect the whole map would add bomb shooter (abilities and bomb blitz ability only) ice monkey (abilities only), glue gunner (abilities only), (technically monkey ace and mortar monkey abilities but they already had unlimited range to begin with), ninja monkey (master bomber/paragon bomb, and abilities only), Gwendolin (firestorm only), and Ezili (heartstopper and MOAB hex only), supermonkey storm, COBRA (ability and arguably bloon adjustment & attrition only), and bloonsday device.

also I mentioned non-offensive global abilities, but the ones I pointed out aren't all of them. The towers that have technically unlimited range on non-combat-applicable things are dart monkey (abilities only), arguably x/4/x heli pilot (redeployment only), alchemist (x/5/x ability and x/x/5 golden potion only), x/5/x monkey village (ability only), engineer monkey (abilities only), Striker Jones (abilities only), Benjamin (biohack and bloon trojan only), arguably Ezili (abilities only) (sacrificial totem always affects your life count), Brickell (mega mine and level 19+ naval tactics only), and Etienne (UAV and UCAV only)

 

[FRIMI]

so to reiterate, what are your current suggested changes?

 

[JustANormalLemon]

For all yhe towers with aplicable ofensive habilities that can cross the entire map they should have the same range treatment as sniper monkey

 

[JustANormalLemon]

While considering the grey circle pure game mechanics

 

[Noneless21]

yeah we can just go with that, tho I'm not good at this content revision

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Or at least tens of meter for them sinse the kilometers still don't have a explanation

 

[FRIMI]

For all yhe towers with aplicable ofensive habilities that can cross the entire map they should have the same range treatment as sniper monkey

I don't really agree with this...

While considering the grey circle pure game mechanics

...because of this. For the record, even if you consider monkey range of projectiles to go beyond the grey circle, it's distinctly not PURELY game mechanics. Theres a good few towers that use the grey circle as a hard border. Look at ice tower, 2/x/x sub mechanics, village, etc.

Also I don't see the issue with the argument that the gray circle is the range in which monkeys can have perfect accuracy

 

[JustANormalLemon]

...because of this. For the record, even if you consider monkey range of projectiles to go beyond the grey circle, it's distinctly not PURELY game mechanics. Theres a good few towers that use the grey circle as a hard border. Look at ice tower, 2/x/x sub mechanics, village, etc.

It would be more a coincidence of their maximun range ending at their real range

Also I don't see the issue with the argument that the gray circle is the range in which monkeys can have perfect accuracy

For towers that don't even aim (like Tack shooters) and homing atack ones still obeing the Grey circle area

Ife we considered It to be a accurance scale why would this towers don't atack at full projectile range?

Game mechanics or Plot induced stupidity being the reason

 

[JustANormalLemon]

I wouldn't argue It if this towers had their vest uses into the fact their atacks hitting bloons outside of It's range being important part's of their uses

A 5/x/x Dart monkey for exemple, if his balls only worked in that range It would be useles

Or how monkeys like monkey subs would be pretty useless if they coulen't hit outside their normal range

 

[FRIMI]

I wouldn't argue It if this towers had their vest uses into the fact their atacks hitting bloons outside of It's range being important part's of their uses

A 5/x/x Dart monkey for exemple, if his balls only worked in that range It would be useles

Or how monkeys like monkey subs would be pretty useless if they coulen't hit outside their normal range

yeah i guess that makes sense, although the sub doesn't really work as an example; it's already an unlimited range tower. But the aiming argument accounts for this by just having a higher range without perfect accuracy. That way towers that rely on shooting outside their range like dart monkey can still do that while also not ignoring the actual range mechanic of the game which clearly matters at least a little. The only tower this doesn't work for is tack. Homing towers still can't aim beyond their range and dont fire regardless because of PIS. Also, I still wouldn't give non-unlimited-range towers that go to the other end of the screen the same treatment as unlimited range towers. I'd go back to my initial suggestion.

"unknown, at least dozens of meters, likely much higher"

for unlimited range (I got dozens of meters by just generally scaling to BMC monkey heights/distances and the general intuition that this is the length of the average reasonably sized map)

"[insert range based on artwork or whatever scaling we start using], higher without accuracy."

for everything else

 

[JustANormalLemon]

yeah i guess that makes sense, although the sub doesn't really work as an example; it's already an unlimited range tower. But the aiming argument accounts for this by just having a higher range without perfect accuracy. That way towers that rely on shooting outside their range like dart monkey can still do that while also not ignoring the actual range mechanic of the game which clearly matters at least a little. The only tower this doesn't work for is tack. Homing towers still can't aim beyond their range and dont fire regardless because of PIS. Also, I still wouldn't give non-unlimited-range towers that go to the other end of the screen the same treatment as unlimited range towers. I'd go back to my initial suggestion.

Guess It's fair enough, Still find strange the homing atack ones needing to aim trough

for unlimited range (I got dozens of meters by just generally scaling to BMC monkey heights/distances and the general intuition that this is the length of the average reasonably sized map)

Don't think the unknow is necessary, probable just "at least dozen of meters, likle tons of meters" should be good, well, we can discuss this more later

for everything else

Fair enough

 

[Confluctor]

Was asked to summon some knowledge staff ig, but don't know any so imma just tag @Antvasima

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Bump I guess

 

[Antvasima]

@Qawsedf234 @Gilad_Hyperstar @EliminatorVenom @The_Smashor @Robot972 @Sans2345 @Iapitus_The_Impaler

What do you think should be done here?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

what all of this means? why aren't towers that the projectiles can travel the entire map aren't At least Tens of meters, likely Hundreds of meters?

simple, beacuse we use the "I will start shooting now" range and not the acctual range of their projectiles, here are some exemples of monkeys projetiles out of their "range":

I'll tackle each picture individually:

The tack zone doesn't actually see beyond its range. It's just that the tacks can fly for longer than the range of the tower. The tower won't attack before bloons get in its range

:

Same applies to the Boomerang shooter. The boomerangs fly more distance than the actual range of the tower itself as it shoots them at the bloons, but it won't attack until the bloons enter its range, even if the boomerangs can reach outside of it

The shurikens, much like the tacks, just continue flying afterwards, meaning that while the ninja monkey can damage bloons outside of its range, it will still only attack if bloons enter its range

These shurikens are seeking bloons by themselves, as said in the description, so they have no need to be aimed by the ninja, meaning its range doesn't matter

Same goes with the Archmage shots. All of the shots have seeking magic that naturally seeks out the bloons. meaning the magic shots can travel outside of the towers range to hit the bloons

That may be actually valid. The ace don't have range of its own so it relies on the arrows flying in all directions to hit bloons

Quincy is the same regarding the tacks and the shurikens I mentioned earlier. He can damage bloons outside of his range but he would only attack if bloons enter his range

 

[JustANormalLemon]

I'll tackle each picture individually:

The tack zone doesn't actually see beyond its range. It's just that the tacks can fly for longer than the range of the tower. The tower won't attack before bloons get in its range

Same applies to the Boomerang shooter. The boomerangs fly more distance than the actual range of the tower itself as it shoots them at the bloons, but it won't attack until the bloons enter its range, even if the boomerangs can reach outside of it

The shurikens, much like the tacks, just continue flying afterwards, meaning that while the ninja monkey can damage bloons outside of its range, it will still only attack if bloons enter its range

These shurikens are seeking bloons by themselves, as said in the description, so they have no need to be aimed by the ninja, meaning its range doesn't matter

Same goes with the Archmage shots. All of the shots have seeking magic that naturally seeks out the bloons. meaning the magic shots can travel outside of the towers range to hit the bloons

That may be actually valid. The ace don't have range of its own so it relies on the arrows flying in all directions to hit bloons

Quincy is the same regarding the tacks and the shurikens I mentioned earlier. He can damage bloons outside of his range but he would only attack if bloons enter his range

Isn't this just a way to say "game mechanics"? There is no reason outside of game balancing for them don't atack outside their range, and is kinda strange to say "they can't see outside this grey circles" sinse there is a bunch of towers that can see at this distance and It's just quite stupid imagine the monkeys have so low view distance

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Ok, for what we have discussed their wll be 3 tier for Monkey range

Limeted life spam projectiles:
Range: At least several meters
Unlimited life spam projectiles/ScreenCross Projectiles
Range: At least several meters, Tens of meter withlower accurance
Infiniti range/Seeking Projectiles
Range: At leastTens of meters

With all having "from Bellow standar meele range to Planetary range with size manipulation" in all and the Ones with artworks depicting bigger range being explaned as "Possible kilometers/Planetary(It's x/x/x art work depic It's projectiles traveling said distance)"

 

[Noneless21]

@Qawsedf234 @Gilad_Hyperstar @EliminatorVenom @The_Smashor @Robot972 @Sans2345 @Iapitus_The_Impaler

What do you think should be done here?

Thank you very much for helping

 

[Jibz]

For all yhe towers with aplicable ofensive habilities that can cross the entire map they should have the same range treatment as sniper monkey

I agree, the fact sniper monkies can shoot balloons as soon as they enter, whilst other monkies need to wait for it to be in their range is just game mechanics, the actual spread for exceeds the limited game range.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I agree, the fact sniper monkies can shoot balloons as soon as they enter, whilst other monkies need to wait for it to be in their range is just game mechanics, the actual spread for exceeds the limited game range.

The sniper have goggles don't they? That can explain why they see further

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Onlye in some upgrades, the base isniper is googles

This also don't explain habilities that execede their n

The sniper have goggles don't they? That can explain why they see further

Ormal range, like quincy storm of arrows having map range but not his normal ones

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for helping

No problem.

Have you reached any conclusions here already?

 

[Noneless21]

The one made this CRT is busy so we'll wait fo rhis response first i believe

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Have you reached any conclusions here already?

Ok, for what we have discussed their wll be 3 tier for Monkey range

Limeted life spam projectiles:
Range: At least several meters
Unlimited life spam projectiles/ScreenCross Projectiles
Range: At least several meters, Tens of meter withlower accurance
Infiniti range/Seeking Projectiles
Range: At leastTens of meters

With all having "from Bellow standar meele range to Planetary range with size manipulation" in all and the Ones with artworks depicting bigger range being explaned as "Possible kilometers/Planetary(It's x/x/x art work depic It's projectiles traveling said distance)"

And waiting for FRIMI confirmation

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Noted.

@FRIMI

Would you be willing to help out further here?

 

[Qawsedf234]

With all having "from Bellow standar meele range to Planetary range with size manipulation"

We really, really should not do this for any of them. Things just aren't to scale like that.

Its why BTD and StarCraft calcs only ever scale the thing to the actual unit themselves. Since while the units are to scale to themselves they aren't to scale to each other.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

We really, really should not do this for any of them. Things just aren't to scale like that.

Its why BTD and StarCraft calcs only ever scale the thing to the actual unit themselves. Since while the units are to scale to themselves they aren't to scale to each other.

What? This is beacuse they can be the size of contries and smaller them computer parts depending on the map

 

[FRIMI]

Okay. Noted.

@FRIMI

Would you be willing to help out further here?

yep, was busy yesterday, but can contribute again now

 

[JustANormalLemon]

yep, was busy yesterday, but can contribute again now

Neat, so can you confirm if this are the changes?

Ok, for what we have discussed their wll be 3 tier for Monkey range

Limeted life spam projectiles:
Range: At least several meters
Unlimited life spam projectiles/ScreenCross Projectiles
Range: At least several meters, Tens of meter withlower accurance
Infiniti range/Seeking Projectiles
Range: At leastTens of meters

With all having "from Bellow standar meele range to Planetary range with size manipulation" in all and the Ones with artworks depicting bigger range being explaned as "Possible kilometers/Planetary(It's x/x/x art work depic It's projectiles traveling said distance)"

 

[FRIMI]

Ok, for what we have discussed their wll be 3 tier for Monkey range

Limeted life spam projectiles:
Range: At least several meters
Unlimited life spam projectiles/ScreenCross Projectiles
Range: At least several meters, Tens of meter withlower accurance
Infiniti range/Seeking Projectiles
Range: At leastTens of meters

So first things first, would this mean we're abandoning upgrade art range scaling? Personally I don't mind that, I always thought it was weird, mainly because it means towers with range upgrades are orders of magnitude higher than towers that just have high range at a base level on account of having upgrade art depicting their higher range. All that being said, we still need a more consistent way to figure out exactly what the ranges should be, since I personally have no clue where you got "several meters" to "tens of meters" from other than it being pure intuition. Now hypothetically we could scale each individual tower's range radius to that individual tower's rough height then compare that to that same tower's appearance in bloons monkey city (this wouldn't work for any heros, alchemist, druid, or cobra, but we can probably compare alchemist, druid, and cobra to dart monkey and do heros on a case-by-case basis somehow) and as I've said before, this solution isn't great, but it may be the most reliable one we've got for now unless there's any other suggestions. I would like to hear from @Robot972 personally.

Anyway, that aside, I do personally believe that infinite range and unlimited projectile life span towers should get higher range than cross-screen projectile towers if we intend to put a concrete number on it, but I also think that just "unknown, at least [lowball estimate], likely far higher" is good for infinite range and could also work for unlimited projectile life span towers. Now with cross-screen projectiles, if we were to use the range calc-ing method above, we could actually figure out a more precise range than having it just be the same as unlimited and infinite range. (also I didn't know where to put this but I think seeking projectiles shouldn't be lumped in with infinite range, it should go in the same category as cross-screen projectiles since afaik all seeking projectiles in the game have limited life span). All that being said I do think that we should mention the range a tower can shoot beyond its in game range as it does tend to matter a lot, even in game, and I have a couple arguments about this.

The tack zone doesn't actually see beyond its range...
...Same applies to the Boomerang shooter...
...ninja monkey...
...Archmage shots...
..Quincy... etc.

I guess I technically can't say this about regular towers but at the very least heros can absolutely see beyond their range. They react to bloons entering the map regardless of whether it's in range or not. They also react to bloons exiting the stage, though apparently they can also sense this with very precise sensing of static electricity on the bloons according to one NK post. Regardless, they can absolutely see bloons entering the map so the idea that they can only see in their range isn't true which further supports my accuracy idea for in character not just shooting from across the map. The only tower I don't think this logic can reasonably apply to is tack since it doesn't aim anyway. Every other tower though can almost certainly see beyond their range. Even with tack, the fact it's being controlled by an operator monkey means it can probably see as far as any other monkey anyway. Probably.

With all having "from Bellow standar meele range to Planetary range with size manipulation" in all and the Ones with artworks depicting bigger range being explaned as "Possible kilometers/Planetary(It's x/x/x art work depic It's projectiles traveling said distance)"

I also think this is a very bad idea. (although from this CRT we should 100% add size manipulation to everything in the bloons verse, bloons included). If we really wanted to we could still include a note about artwork range depictions and I would take a neutral stance on it, but really it's not necessary and tends to create weird situations where base tack shooter outranges almost everything else in the verse. As I was eluding to earlier, there is no definitive "size" of a map in terms of meters. Even the ones with very clear and huge alterations like going from computer chip to planetary don't really give you any sizes to compare. Some maps have sizes that you could scale to. iirc workshop has at least one tape measure so you could take the size of that map with a low vs high ball depending on if the tape measure uses imperial or metric. But ultimately it doesn't really matter because the maps are just so inconsistent I don't think we could reasonably extrapolate from them at all