Bloons Tower Defense RANGE and some Quincy problens

[JustANormalLemon]

Sniper Monkey

Range: At least Tens of meters, likely Hundreds of meters

Dartling Gun

Range: Below Average Melee Range, At least Tens of Meters, likely Hundreds of Meters with gatling Gun | Below Average Melee Range, At least Tens of Meters, likely Hundreds of Meters with laser cannon | Below Average Melee Range, At least Tens of Meters, likely Hundreds of Meters with rocket launchers | Below Average Melee Range, Tens of Meters with cannons

Monkey Sub

Range: At least Several Meters, possibly Tens of Kilometers (The artwork for Longer Range shows a dart going that far, however this may not be valid), Varies with Advanced Intel

Tack Shooter

Range: Several meters, possibly Planetary (The art for Super Range Tacks shows the Tack Shooter’s tacks crossing a planetary distance, though this may not be valid) | Several meters, Tens of Meters via Inferno Ring's projectile | Several meters, Tens of meters with activated ability | Several meters

Dart Monkey

Range: At least several meters, possibly tens of kilometers (The artwork for Long Range Darts shows a dart going that far, however this may not be valid)

Monkey Ace

Range: Below Average Melee Range | Several Meters (The Biplane’s wingspan is about 3 meters), At least Tens of Meters with darts (They continue flying off screen), Several Meters with Exploding Pineapples | Several Meters (The Stealth Bombers should be bigger than the Biplane), At least Tens of Meters with darts, Several Meters with Exploding Pineapples, Tens of Meters with anti-MOAB missiles | Several Meters (The Heavy Bombers should be bigger than the Biplane), At least Tens of Meters with darts, Several Meters with explosives, At least Tens of Meters with Ground Zero and Tsar Bomba, possibly Hundreds of Meters | Several Meters, possibly higher (The Gunships should be much bigger than the Biplane, The Flying Fortress’ is at least Type 0 and it’s description focuses on it being a “BIG plane”), At least Tens of Meters with darts, Several Meters with bomb

Quincy

Range: Several Meters. Higher with Rain of Arrows

For every one reading this, I ask, can you tell me with ones are the only ones that in game that their projectiles can't reach the other side of the map if not stoped by a bloon?

the awnser is Tack Shooter and Dart Monkey

Snipers can hit any bloon at any place in the map if there isn't a wall in the way
A dartling gun projectiles can travel the entire map if not stoped
Monkey sub projectiles can travel the entire map to hit bloons all over It
Monkey ace dartsonly disapear if hitting a bloon or geting out of the screen
Quincy arrows can travel the entire map if he miss them or they just bounce from Bloon in Bloon or with his storm of arrows

what all of this means? why aren't towers that the projectiles can travel the entire map aren't At least Tens of meters, likely Hundreds of meters?

simple, beacuse we use the "I will start shooting now" range and not the acctual range of their projectiles, here are some exemples of monkeys projetiles out of their "range":

:

Well, this should be enough, the point is, a lot of monkeys can shoot outside of their "range" and It makes clear that this grey circle act's more as a type of game mechanics them a real range, only being used to mesure whem monkeys would start to atack in game

If needed I can make a list of all the monkeys that their projectiles can travel across the entire screen but the point is, all the monkeys that their projectiles can trael across the enitre screen or habilities can affect any where in the map should have their range upgraded to the same as sniper monkey range

Things could be argued to add "possible planetary" to them thanks to their projectiles out ranging tack shooter projectiles as well, but this isn't the point

the last thing I have to say is, quincy arrows should have limited homing atack thanks to being able to bounce from a bloon for the other, even if is said that he is using the bloon popping his arrows can still bounce from ceramics and MOABS that didn't pop with the arrow hit

Thanks for the time

Agreed: noneless21
Partialy agreed: FRIMI
neutral:
Partily not agreed:
not agreed:

 

[Noneless21]

I mean I think it's obvious enough that there's some tower's range that aren't limited by their conventional range area so I agree

 

[Noneless21]

We probably should ask the staffs tho, hold on

 

[JustANormalLemon]

We probably should ask the staffs tho, hold on

I will call some BTD6 supporters

 

[FRIMI]

oh baby its time for the inevitable btd6 range CRT, I always knew this day would come. gimme a sec to read what's already been said

 

[FRIMI]

alright so first thing's first. sizes/measuring distances is very difficult in the extended bloons canon. In fact, very few measurements are taken from any gameplay content, rather a large majority comes from either NK statements or in game art.

The reason for this is because not only are maps consistently not to scale with one another. this is a bit less the case in BTD6 but still has some pretty big variation with monkeys being the size of large buildings on some maps, while in the further extended canon of non-btd6 bloons game we see monkeys scaling to as big as countries/continents which would give every monkey planetary range if we measured by gameplay range measurements. Although they also get as small as scaling to computer chips, actual millimeters tall, or less.

This is why we tend to use artwork or statements when we can, and when we can't we tend to default to bloons monkey city measurements for being at least a bit more consistent on the world map (although I tend to take personal issue with this for reasons I can elaborate on if need be). In fact, even if we wanted to take tack's planetary range and scale everyone up from it because every tower but ice monkey has clearly bigger gameplay range than tack, that wouldn't be quite so straightforward because monkeys don't even consistently scale to each other in terms of size. Pretty much every bloons game has their monkeys scale to each other differently from every other bloons game (for example, in btd6 super monkeys are quite a bit bigger than other monkeys but are often portrayed as regular dart monkey size in most other games). In fact, pretty much every bloons game actually has monkeys AND bloons size scale in their own game without needing to cross-compare to other games.

Bloons Monkey City is actually a great example of this despite typically being the default. The size of towers are stretched and squashed so the gameplay is fun and fair. For instance, all the monkeys operating the boats and planes in the top path buccaneer are absolutely tiny when used within the standard gameplay compared to every other tower. Like to the extent that they're literally palm sized. BMC tries to rectify this by having the world map use realistically scaled tower sizes such as having the temple be the size of an actual pyramid on the map or by having buildings be the size of actual buildings as opposed to monkey villages basically being the size of a large monkey when placed in game. Of course this leads to some hilarious inconsistencies like having a temple being at least 4x bigger than a mountain, likely bigger despite easily being placed on mountain maps in game because as I already pointed out, all towers are squashed and stretched to fit the map so the gameplay works.

All this is to say that comparing range feats by in game ranges can be pretty difficult due to a lot of size inconsistencies for gameplay sake, although I do agree that the unlimited range towers should have that noted on their pages. I would recommend "unknown, at least dozens of meters, likely much higher" if we are to go by Bloons Monkey City scaling which despite very much not being ideal, is probably the best we've got for scaling distance measurements consistently.

I also only somewhat agree that towers shooting out of their "range" in game is notable. The important thing to keep in mind is that canon-wise the range radius of a tower is essentially the range at which towers can fire accurately. Even for towers with homing shots like wizards or ninjas or 0/x/x subs that should be able to accurately hit targets from basically across the map, firing outside their "accurate" range would be ooc. Regardless, it's definitely important to note that they can fire beyond their "range." I guess my bet would be to say "[insert range based on artwork or whatever scaling we start using], higher without accuracy." This doesn't apply to infinite range towers if my suggestion for their range gets used.

 

[FRIMI]

you can put be down as partially agreed given my suggested changes

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Hum... I guess I understood, but just a question, what stop monkeys having size manipulation as well to explain that size inconsistence across the maps?

 

[JustANormalLemon]

and about the "accurated aim" this is kinda nonsense considering even homing atack monkeys don't shoot It whem hteir homing atack is a very important mechanic in their arsenal, but I kinda can't give deeper questions about such a thing

 

[Noneless21]

I mean you can just give dozens of meter, much higher with x ability on them tho

 

[JustANormalLemon]

I mean you can just give dozens of meter, much higher with x ability on them tho

never questioned It

so I have one other question, why sniper monkey has possible kilometers in range them?

 

[Noneless21]

Probably because they can hit bloons from basically a whole map i guess

 

[FRIMI]

Hum... I guess I understood, but just a question, what stop monkeys having size manipulation as well to explain that size inconsistence across the maps?

it might, but it really doesn't help solve the inconsistent ranges since their range scales to their size. If you wanna go with this explanation (which really just seems like headcanon imo) then at least the range question is easily fixed. Every monkey would have at least planetary range, some approaching up to solar system including all the infinite range towers. Unfortunately this range scaling wouldn't apply to any heros, alch, druid, cobra, or any bloons adventure time characters because none of them are in btd5.

and about the "accurated aim" this is kinda nonsense considering even homing atack monkeys don't shoot It whem hteir homing atack is a very important mechanic in their arsenal, but I kinda can't give deeper questions about such a thing

I thought I covered homing attack monkeys in my initial comment

 

[JustANormalLemon]

the problem is that as FRIMI said, maps have inconsistent sizes... well, this will be needed to be discuseed further

as I undertood the only thing that will change is

all monkeys that projectiles can go all across the screen

it might, but it really doesn't help solve the inconsistent ranges since their range scales to their size. If you wanna go with this explanation (which really just seems like headcanon imo) then at least the range question is easily fixed. Every monkey would have at least planetary range, some approaching up to solar system including all the infinite range towers. Unfortunately this range scaling wouldn't apply to any heros, alch, druid, cobra, or any bloons adventure time characters because none of them are in btd5.

Yeee... this seens kinda odd, well, we can't say that this drastic size changes would be real, like, they can be in very big or small replicas

I thought I covered homing attack monkeys in my initial comment

You kinda just said "the monkeys that don't need to aim would need to aim to shoot" so... kinda odd don't It? this still seens like more of a game mechanic, like how tacshooter don't aim at all but only shoots in that area that is smaller them It's real range

 

[JustANormalLemon]

If I had to say my opinion, the maps with bigger size diferent should be considered outliers

trough things like super monkey size and sun temples would keep being a problem, especialy with other art works showing them much bigger or smaller...

 

[JustANormalLemon]

To help make things clear, why do sniper monkey have the range It has?

 

[FRIMI]

yeah temples do tend to be one of the biggest issues here. Even in the generally more consistent btd6, here's an image of the temple and true sun god next to the temple map

 

[Noneless21]

yeah temples do tend to be one of the biggest issues here. Even in the generally more consistent btd6, here's an image of the temple and true sun god next to the temple map

I kinda thought that temple is suppose to be TSG, but guess not, tho TSG is considerably larger than sun temple

 

[FRIMI]

To help make things clear, why do sniper monkey have the range It has?

no clue tbh

 

[Robot972]

I definitely agree that the range is something that's needed to be corrected for a long time.

Still have a lot to do, considering AP revisions still need to be done over on the other thread which has been ongoing for 5 months

 

[Noneless21]

I definitely agree that the range is something that's needed to be corrected for a long time.

Still have a lot to do, considering AP revisions still need to be done over on the other thread which has been ongoing for 5 months

Ummm, link?

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Well, I propose a radical change for It them

there is acctualy 2 types of sun temples

the ones used in game and the big oones that we can find in the art works and maps

They have drastic size diferences and shouldn't be compared to one another but work the same way with just their size being a outlier

A exemple of usable sun temple

A exemple of big sun temple

and about the Carrier airship planes, they can be just drones, there is no monkey visible inside them

 

[JustANormalLemon]

I definitely agree that the range is something that's needed to be corrected for a long time.

Still have a lot to do, considering AP revisions still need to be done over on the other thread which has been ongoing for 5 months

I would like to help on this, so if you want to give us the link I would be glady

 

[FRIMI]

and about the Carrier airship planes, they can be just drones, there is no monkey visible inside them

it's not just the planes (which btw are most likely piloted), it's also this ship itself which clearly has monkeys on it by the canon art of the tower which would also be palm sized

 

[Robot972]

I would like to help on this, so if you want to give us the link I would be glady

It's not that there's much discussion that needs to be done. I just need to go back and recompile everything. I just haven't had the time though

 

[JustANormalLemon]

it's not just the planes (which btw are most likely piloted), it's also this ship itself which clearly has monkeys on it by the canon art of the tower which would also be palm sized

dwarf monkeys and... how are they mostly likle piloted?

It's not that there's much discussion that needs to be done. I just need to go back and recompile everything. I just haven't had the time though

I like to organize info, If you want me to compile them for you I will do no problem

 

[FRIMI]

Well, I propose a radical change for It them

there is acctualy 2 types of sun temples

the ones used in game and the big oones that we can find in the art works and maps

I would generally be against this change. For one, the big temple in the background of the btd6 homescreen does move around and stuff which suggests it is indeed an actual sun temple (as in the tower). Also because of bloons monkey city scaling which displays temples as actually massive

 

[JustANormalLemon]

I would generally be against this change. For one, the big temple in the background of the btd6 homescreen does move around and stuff which suggests it is indeed an actual sun temple (as in the tower). Also because of bloons monkey city scaling which displays temples as actually massive

This 2 would be bassicaly the normal sun temple we use, but huge, that would be just a case of

"Sun temples and TSG can have 2 distinct sizes, being smaller ones used in the games and big ones constructed by monkeys, they are equal in every other aspect only having drastic size diferences"

I would try to argue about normal monkeys having variet of sizes as well, but thanks to hers being one of a kind this would be obsolute

But what I mean is, the sun temple in the background would be just a big sun temple while the one in the gameplays is just a small version of It

 

[JustANormalLemon]

And I jsut remenbered... Don't BTD6 has options to maie monkeys smaller or bigger? Wouldn't It be a suport for "monkeys have size manipulation" theory?

 

[FRIMI]

And I jsut remenbered... Don't BTD6 has options to maie monkeys smaller or bigger? Wouldn't It be a suport for "monkeys have size manipulation" theory?

that's actually a really good point. It would function a bit differently though since these don't affect gameplay at all; hitboxes and more importantly range all stay the same

 

[Noneless21]

that's actually a really good point. It would function a bit differently though since these don't affect gameplay at all; hitboxes and more importantly range all stay the same

Won't that means that they still functionnally the same at any size then? If it is then limited size manip can be possible but non combat applicable i guess

 

[JustANormalLemon]

that's actually a really good point. It would function a bit differently though since these don't affect gameplay at all; hitboxes and more importantly range all stay the same

Could be argued as gamemechanics sinse It wouldbe OP t be able to put more towers in the same spot

 

[FRIMI]

Won't that means that they still functionnally the same at any size then? If it is then limited size manip can be possible but non combat applicable i guess

except that using this to explain the map inconsistencies actually would make it combat applicable; monkeys in btd6 get up to the size of buildings, in the full bloons canon they get as big as country size with interplanetary range

 

[JustANormalLemon]

except that using this to explain the map inconsistencies actually would make it combat applicable; monkeys in btd6 get up to the size of buildings, in the full bloons canon they get as big as country size with interplanetary range

Something like "monkeys change their size to match the size their oponents are, if bloons get smaleer them computer chips they will also become small enough to fight inside the computer, if bloons become as large as contries the monkeys will become such size to fight"

 

[Noneless21]

Hmmm, sheesh it's a tough cookie to crack through the inconsistency of monkey size huh? Can we just say that there's many size for monkeys from microchip size to planetary size...

Or we can just say that there's a tool for manipulating size for monkey

Something like "monkeys change their size to match the size their oponents are, if bloons get smaleer them computer chips they will also become small enough to fight inside the computer, if bloons become as large as contries the monkeys will become such size to fight"

That can work tbh

 

[FRIMI]

Something like "monkeys change their size to match the size their oponents are, if bloons get smaleer them computer chips they will also become small enough to fight inside the computer, if bloons become as large as contries the monkeys will become such size to fight"

that works for me, although it would make range based on the scale of the monkey which would be really annoying

 

[JustANormalLemon]

that works for me, although it would make range based on the scale of the monkey which would be really annoying

I think It should be expecificated that thy only do that with drastic changes sinze the likes of MOABS are much larger them monkeys during their fights, well and we can say in the end "vary to bellow averge meele range to planetary with size change"

Now we need to get back to their "standard size" range

 

[FRIMI]

By the way, for future reference and for convenience sake, all the infinite range towers are bomb shooter (abilities only), tack shooter (5/x/x meteor attack and abilities only), sniper monkey, monkey sub (2+/x/x, ability, and pre-emptive strike only), monkey buccaneer (top path and paragon planes, abilities, and paragon auto-hooks only), monkey ace, mortar monkey, dartling gunner (not bottom path), wizard monkey (phoenix('s) only), super monkey (x/x/5 black hole, 4+/x/x planes & missiles only, possibly VTSG death hax), ninja monkey (master bomber/paragon bomb only), alchemist (bottom path golden potion only) (technically also tier 5 ability, but this is not used offensively, similar to dart monkey and engineer ability), druid (x/3+/x vine attack and x/5/x vines only), spike factory (ability only), monkey village (5/x/x ballista attack only), Quincy (storm of arrows only), Striker Jones (concussive shell only), Psi (not psychic blast), Churchill (MOAB Barrage only), Benjamin (trojan only), Ezili (MOAB hex only), Adora (ball of light only, possibly blood sacrifice), Brickell (mega mine only), Etienne (UCAV only), Sauda is weird because she technically only ever has extended melee range but also has unlimited range on both her abilities which have her physically move to attack bloons so she never actually attacks outside her melee range, COBRA (ability and arguably bloon adjustment & attrition only), and bloonsday device.

I didn't include any abilities that just affect the entire map, rather only ones that explicitly have attacks that can target bloons across the map. Abilities that affect the whole map would add bomb shooter (abilities and bomb blitz ability only) ice monkey (abilities only), glue gunner (abilities only), (technically monkey ace and mortar monkey abilities but they already had unlimited range to begin with), ninja monkey (master bomber/paragon bomb, and abilities only), Gwendolin (firestorm only), and Ezili (heartstopper and MOAB hex only), supermonkey storm, COBRA (ability and arguably bloon adjustment & attrition only), and bloonsday device.

 

[Noneless21]

By the way, for future reference and for convenience sake, all the infinite range towers are bomb shooter (ability only), tack shooter (5/x/x meteor attack and ability only), sniper monkey, monkey sub (2+/x/x, ability, and pre-emptive strike only), monkey buccaneer (top path and paragon planes, abilities, and paragon auto-hooks only), monkey ace, mortar monkey, dartling gunner (not bottom path), wizard monkey (phoenix('s) only), super monkey (temple/TSG/VTSG planes & missiles only, possibly VTSG death hax), ninja monkey (master bomber/paragon bomb only), alchemist (bottom path golden potion only) (technically also tier 5 ability, but this is not used offensively, similar to dart monkey and engineer ability), druid (x/3+/x vine attack and x/5/x vines only), spike factory (ability only), monkey village (5/x/x ballista attack only), Quincy (storm of arrows only), Striker Jones (concussive shell only), Psi (not psychic blast), Churchill (MOAB Barrage only), Benjamin (trojan only), Ezili (MOAB hex only), Adora (ball of light only, possibly blood sacrifice), Brickell (mega mine only), Etienne (UCAV only), and lastly Sauda is weird because she technically only ever has extended melee range but also has unlimited range on both her abilities which have her physically move to attack bloons so she never actually attacks outside her melee range.

I didn't include any abilities that just affect the entire map, rather only ones that explicitly have attacks that can target bloons across the map. Abilities that affect the whole map would add ice monkey (abilities only), glue gunner (abilities only), (technically monkey ace and mortar monkey abilities but they already had unlimited range to begin with), ninja monkey (master bomber/paragon bomb, and abilities only), Gwendolin (firestorm only), and Ezili (heartstopper and MOAB hex only),

Wouldn't bomb blitz's ability cover the entire map also?

 

[FRIMI]

yes, thanks