Bloodborne - Cleanups

[WeeklyBattles]

Alrighty, next Fromsoft game on the list, Bloodborne.

Here is a cleaned up Hunter profile, bit more drastic changes than the Chosen Undead, so lets discuss:

Lifting Strength:

Finally the Plank Shield is good for something

Just like Dark Souls, Bloodborne can get lifting strength feats from blocking enemy attacks with shields. Even in the early game the enemies yield stuff from Class 25 all the way to Class M, as well as boss feats on this level, with a lot of Class K supporting feats. Also redid the Kirkhammer calc for ***** and giggles even if it is just a bit feat compared to that.

Issue 1 - Beginning/Early Game Key:

Okay, so right off the bat, Vicar Amelia's High 8-C calc has been agreed to be blatantly unuseable for a long, long time, just that no one ever bothered to remove it, so now I am, and am replacing it with an actual useable feat, the meteor attack of the Fluorescent Flower. While its more well known around the mid-game point in Byrgenwerth, the Fluorescent Flower is actually fought really early on, in the first Chalice Dungeon accessed after killing the Blood Starved Beast. In addition, Old Hunter Henryk, who you fight and kill almost immediately after being Gascoigne, can be summoned to fight and kill the Fluorescent Flower in Byrgenwerth, with Gascoigne canonically being stronger than him, Gascoigne in turn being able to fight the Cleric Beast, blah blah you get where im going with this, Early Game bumped up from High 8-C to 8-A, bit more consistent too seeing as Mid-Game is 7-C. This also solidifies the speed rating as thats now two meteor attacks the Hunter can react to in the early game.

Issue 2 - Mid-Game Key:

Not a huge change here, really just a slight upgrade for the DLC bosses as theyre canonically fought after killing Vicar Amelia and progressing into the mid-game, which puts them at 7-C rather than 8-A

Issue 3 - Late-Game Scaling:

This is gonna be the argument starter. Simply put, the reasoning for 5-A itself isnt wrong, but the scaling is. Rom wasnt holding the moon back, she was simply casting an illusion over Yharnam which broke when The Hunter killed her and allowed for Mergo to move the blood moon closer to the planet. In the same vein, Amygdala didnt create the Nightmare Frontier, Mergo did. Additionally, Ebrietas is a Kin, a lesser Great One, not a full Great One. This kinda nukes 5-A scaling for any key besides the End Game Childhood's Beginning, which has The Hunter scaling to Mergo's moon move and dimension creation as well as The Moon Presence's moon move and dimension creation, this leaves us falling back on ol' reliable from way back in the day, now new and improved; A Call Beyond, now with updated math and more concise scaling. This puts The Hunter's later two keys at High 6-C as well as all of the Great Ones other than the Moon Presence, Mergo, Oedon, and possibly Kos and the Wet Nurse.

Thats about it for now, there are some other issues that will be addressed later but these are the simpler ones to take care of real quick.

 

[Rikimarox2]

The sandbox you linked leads to a Ryuko sandbox page.

 

[Dalesean027]

The sandbox you linked leads to a Ryuko sandbox page.

This is facts lol

 

[Shmooply]

The sandbox you linked leads to a Ryuko sandbox page.

No, she's just a hidden boss you can unlock after beating Vicar. Crazy fact not a lot of people know of.

 

[Rikimarox2]

No, she's just a hidden boss you can unlock after beating Vicar. Crazy fact not a lot of people heard of.

damn, and here I thought I was a bloodborne expert.

I feel ashamed

 

[Dalesean027]

No, she's just a hidden boss you can unlock after beating Vicar. Crazy fact not a lot of people know of.

I'd thought she'd be after mergo's wet nurse for reasons

 

[Starter_Pack]

I was gonna start an hour-long rant about how I hate everything about Bloodborne, but I saw Ryuko was in it, so I'm fine.

Give me an actual profile to see the stats in, but from a glance at everything here, it seems fine from the perspective of someone who never played the game. Of course, I could be wrong, but that's on me.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

oh, whoops, my b

WeeklyBattles/sandboxbloodborne

fcoc-vs-battles.fandom.com

 

[Starter_Pack]

Yeah, again, seems fine.

 

[Dalesean027]

I have no contentions here and I don't really see an issue with switches up the late games scaling to what you said above as the reasonings provided were pretty solid and simple to see why it needed to be done

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The sandbox you linked leads to a Ryuko sandbox page.

Fixed

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Bump

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I was gonna start an hour-long rant about how I hate everything about Bloodborne, but I saw Ryuko was in it, so I'm fine.

Give me an actual profile to see the stats in, but from a glance at everything here, it seems fine from the perspective of someone who never played the game. Of course, I could be wrong, but that's on me.

Luckily Bloodborne is a lot more linear in scaling than most of the other souls games so it's a lot easier to fix tier-wise

 

[Mr. Bambu]

No argument on the early game key.

I'd be against Henryk scaling since that's still from a point later in the game than he ought to scale to. Scaling to the Flower in general is fine, though, if it's in the earliest chalice dungeon- I don't recall all the enemies in there.

I'm a bit rusty, so can you provide the lore for Ebrietas not being a full Great One? Rom was the homemade lass, I don't recall any such lore for Ebrietas.

Meant to post this last night but I guess I just... didn't. Whoops.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I'd be against Henryk scaling since that's still from a point later in the game than he ought to scale to.

You say this yet he is one of the summons to fight Rom lol

In all seriousness tho, Henryk fighting the flower is fairly consistent with its initial location in the gameplay and the relative scaling chain, it just happened that he only fought said early game enemy directly in a later area.

Scaling to the Flower in general is fine, though, if it's in the earliest chalice dungeon- I don't recall all the enemies in there.

Ye, its found in the first area of the Pthumerian Chalice, which is the first layer of the first chalice dungeon the Hunter canonically went through

Fluorescent Flower

Fluorescent Flower Bloodborne Wiki » Enemies » Fluorescent Flower Source ❘ Edit ❘ Sitemap &V...

www.bloodborne-wiki.com

I'm a bit rusty, so can you provide the lore for Ebrietas not being a full Great One? Rom was the homemade lass, I don't recall any such lore for Ebrietas.

Basically, there are two major distinctions between true Great Ones and Kin:

*Great Ones bleed red when struck, whereas Kin will bleed a pale yellowish fluid.
*Great Ones are unaffected by "Kinhunter" Blood Gems, that boost attacks against Kin.

Ebrietas falls into the latter of both categories, as well as the implication that she is the first Celestial Child given the Choir's attempts to duplicate her through the celestial children, Living Failures, and the Celestial Emmisary

Meant to post this last night but I guess I just... didn't. Whoops.

lol it's all good

 

[Mr. Bambu]

You say this yet he is one of the summons to fight Rom lol

In all seriousness tho, Henryk fighting the flower is fairly consistent with its initial location in the gameplay and the relative scaling chain, it just happened that he only fought said early game enemy directly in a later area.

Yeah, but scaling Henryk leads to considerable obvious problems.

Basically, there are two major distinctions between true Great Ones and Kin:

*Great Ones bleed red when struck, whereas Kin will bleed a pale yellowish fluid.
*Great Ones are unaffected by "Kinhunter" Blood Gems, that boost attacks against Kin.

Ebrietas falls into the latter of both categories, as well as the implication that she is the first Celestial Child given the Choir's attempts to duplicate her through the celestial children, Living Failures, and the Celestial Emmisary

Again, are there lore tidbits that confirm this or are these just obscure background mechanics that people believe to mean these things? I understand Souls games have extremely obscure lore, but this may be a bit much.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Yeah, but scaling Henryk leads to considerable obvious problems.

Scaling him to Rom, yeah, obviously lol, but scaling him to the flower should be fine

Again, are there lore tidbits that confirm this or are these just obscure background mechanics that people believe to mean these things? I understand Souls games have extremely obscure lore, but this may be a bit much.

Eh? The blood thing being a lore assumption i get but the Kinhunter Gems thing is kinda just proof in and of itself, it only boosts damage against Kin but not true Great Ones, even the game guide confirms that true Great Ones like the Moon Presence, Amygdala, and the Wet Nurse arent Kin by literally labeling what is and isnt Kin

 

[Abstractions]

I'm fine with these adjustments, also good work on the page update.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Thank you ^-^

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Eh? The blood thing being a lore assumption i get but the Kinhunter Gems thing is kinda just proof in and of itself, it only boosts damage against Kin but not true Great Ones, even the game guide confirms that true Great Ones like the Moon Presence, Amygdala, and the Wet Nurse arent Kin by literally labeling what is and isnt Kin

...then can you get the game guide scan? I just think it's a bit flimsy. Game mechanics are very good support normally, but I don't feel totally comfortable using them as the sole justification, especially when the game itself refers to Ebrietas as a Great One.

I'm not even sure it really matters given your core argument seems to be that Rom isn't responsible for holding the moon back and rather hid that the moon moved at all, in which case later scaling applies.

All that said, I would be interested in the lore regarding Mergo creating the Nightmare Frontier, as that also clashes with something I had believed. Given we can see the DLC zone from the Nightmare Frontier, and that was made by Kos, where does Mergo enter this?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

...then can you get the game guide scan? I just think it's a bit flimsy. Game mechanics are very good support normally, but I don't feel totally comfortable using them as the sole justification, especially when the game itself refers to Ebrietas as a Great One.

Sure

VS Battles Wiki

The VS Battles Wiki is the world's most comprehensive and popular index of statistics and powers for characters and items from all of popular fiction.

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VS Battles Wiki

The VS Battles Wiki is the world's most comprehensive and popular index of statistics and powers for characters and items from all of popular fiction.

vsbattles.fandom.com

VS Battles Wiki

The VS Battles Wiki is the world's most comprehensive and popular index of statistics and powers for characters and items from all of popular fiction.

vsbattles.fandom.com

Ebrietas and the Emissary are classified as Kin (The little yellow worm box on the resistances bar) whereas Moon Presence and Amygdala arent.
And yeah, they are all Great Ones, thats their race, its just that there are Kin Great Ones and True Great Ones, like how there are Greater Demons and Lesser Demons in Dark Souls

All that said, I would be interested in the lore regarding Mergo creating the Nightmare Frontier, as that also clashes with something I had believed. Given we can see the DLC zone from the Nightmare Frontier, and that was made by Kos, where does Mergo enter this?

I am curious why you think this, might warrant some discussion. This is what im going off of btw

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I think it was Vaati who originally pointed it out, but it is objective fact that you can see the Hunter's Nightmare from the Nightmare Frontier, or at the very least a place very much like it.

Near the start of the Nightmare Frontier, if you look down the cliffside you can see the sunken ships present in the fishing village of the Hunter's Nightmare.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

I was gonna start an hour-long rant about how I hate everything about Bloodborne, but I saw Ryuko was in it, so I'm fine.

You mean this?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I think it was Vaati who originally pointed it out, but it is objective fact that you can see the Hunter's Nightmare from the Nightmare Frontier, or at the very least a place very much like it.

Near the start of the Nightmare Frontier, if you look down the cliffside you can see the sunken ships present in the fishing village of the Hunter's Nightmare.

TBH i think it might be just a weird spatial thing in regards to the Nightmare as a whole given that the whole point of the Nigthmare is that its a warped reflection of the real world. Plus you can literally see the Nigthmare of Mensis from the Nightmare Frontier but its night time in the Nightmare of Mensis while it is daytime in the Frontier.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

TBH i think it might be just a weird spatial thing in regards to the Nightmare as a whole given that the whole point of the Nigthmare is that its a warped reflection of the real world. Plus you can literally see the Nigthmare of Mensis from the Nightmare Frontier but its night time in the Nightmare of Mensis while it is daytime in the Frontier.

Maybe. Either way, ig I can take a look at the Mergo thing.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Maybe. Either way, ig I can take a look at the Mergo thing.

That whole essay is a damn good analysis tbh, dont know if youre available to read a 100+ page analysis tho lol

But ye, is this good to apply? The mergo/nightmare thing is supplementary

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The first two points are, yes. I'm still iffy on aspects of the third one, and we may wish to hear from other supporters.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Which aspects in particular?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Who would scale, basically.

Unrelated I really wish this thing cited its sources better. As it stands it is an elaborate interpretation, but not really necessarily solid. Some of it seems perfectly fair (like the Yharnam Stone being Mergo's calcified body), some of it seems wacky (Micolash's mind was obliterated by being exposed to an "eldritch concept of death", Amygdala is actually a singular being because there's multiple of them). It's not entirely unbelievable, but I believe much of this is glorified speculation.

Can you point out which specific bit of this states that Mergo created the Nightmare Frontier, though? I read a good bit of it but didn't find anything.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Who would scale, basically.

To High 6-C or to 5-A?

Unrelated I really wish this thing cited its sources better. As it stands it is an elaborate interpretation, but not really necessarily solid. Some of it seems perfectly fair (like the Yharnam Stone being Mergo's calcified body), some of it seems wacky (Micolash's mind was obliterated by being exposed to an "eldritch concept of death", Amygdala is actually a singular being because there's multiple of them). It's not entirely unbelievable, but I believe much of this is glorified speculation.

shrug thats fair i guess, what is your interpretation for the stuff in question?

Can you point out which specific bit of this states that Mergo created the Nightmare Frontier, though? I read a good bit of it but didn't find anything.

Oh did i say he created the frontier? Sorry I meant the nightmare of mensis, my bad

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Also, i didnt include them in this but thoughts on including the Bloodborne comics or no?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

To High 6-C or to 5-A?

5-A.

You make a big point about who is and isn't a True Great One, and also who did and did not create a new Dream/Nightmare. I think the latter point is better to work through.

That said, Rom did create something. We're clearly in a Dream-like realm when we fight Rom. It's just not really entirely clear what that is, I don't remember any lore ever talking about it.

I think Maria and Orphan should be 5-A, given Maria assisted in killing Kos (who created the Hunter's Nightmare) and Orphan is fought after Maria- only after Maria. If there are other Hunters known to have taken part in the slaughtering of Kos then they should also obviously be included.

Ebrietas is in a questionable spot for me. On the one hand I find it unlikely that she's true fodder compared to the rest of the Great Ones, but at the same time I think perhaps the ascension they went through to their higher plane of existence may well have given them a power boost. I'd personally prefer "At least High 6-C, possibly far higher" for her, and maybe Rom too, given my point about her.

shrug thats fair i guess, what is your interpretation for the stuff in question?

I don't know that all of it really has a concrete explanation. Like the Amygdala thing, I think the simplest is probably the truth- there are many Amygdala. Not all of them look alike, so I don't think they're copy-pastes of the same creature like with the Wet Nurse's clone.

Oh did i say he created the frontier? Sorry I meant the nightmare of mensis, my bad

Yeh, you did.

In the same vein, Amygdala didnt create the Nightmare Frontier, Mergo did.

If you don't stand by that, who would you say was responsible for the Nightmare Frontier, then? Assuming you disagree still with the Nightmare Frontier being connected to the Hamlet from the Hunter's Nightmare.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Also, i didnt include them in this but thoughts on including the Bloodborne comics or no?

Hate that idea, yeah. Tangentially related.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

5-A.

You make a big point about who is and isn't a True Great One, and also who did and did not create a new Dream/Nightmare. I think the latter point is better to work through.

Imo it would only be The Moon Presence, Oedon, Childhood Beginnings Hunter, Mergo, and maybe Kos, all the other Great Ones would just scale above the Kin

That said, Rom did create something. We're clearly in a Dream-like realm when we fight Rom. It's just not really entirely clear what that is, I don't remember any lore ever talking about it.

I dont think there is either, Micolash hints at something called 'The Great Lake of Mud' but its part of cut content so we may never find out until Bloodborne 2 happens :/

I think Maria and Orphan should be 5-A, given Maria assisted in killing Kos (who created the Hunter's Nightmare) and Orphan is fought after Maria- only after Maria. If there are other Hunters known to have taken part in the slaughtering of Kos then they should also obviously be included.

Small thing, she didnt kill Kos she just assisted the church in its dissection after Kos was already dead. Kos was dead well before the Church got to her.

Ebrietas is in a questionable spot for me. On the one hand I find it unlikely that she's true fodder compared to the rest of the Great Ones, but at the same time I think perhaps the ascension they went through to their higher plane of existence may well have given them a power boost. I'd personally prefer "At least High 6-C, possibly far higher" for her, and maybe Rom too, given my point about her.

I mean none of the boss Kin are fodder, theyre just low on the totem pole with a confirmed hierarchy, though i can agree to what youre going for, especially with how Rom was able to affect the Amygdalae around Yharnam with her magic

I don't know that all of it really has a concrete explanation. Like the Amygdala thing, I think the simplest is probably the truth- there are many Amygdala. Not all of them look alike, so I don't think they're copy-pastes of the same creature like with the Wet Nurse's clone.

Fair

If you don't stand by that, who would you say was responsible for the Nightmare Frontier, then? Assuming you disagree still with the Nightmare Frontier being connected to the Hamlet from the Hunter's Nightmare.

If we're going with it being directly connected to the Fishing Hamlet then i would say Kos

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Small thing, she didnt kill Kos she just assisted the church in its dissection after Kos was already dead. Kos was dead well before the Church got to her.

Where does this come from? I can only guess the Kos Parasite description but I'd always taken that to mean the corpse was taken by the sea/dumped to hide it, since that's sort of the whole point of Maria's shame and the reason the Nightmare has the whole "secret" theme. They slaughtered the creature and did what they could to hide it. If it's something else, by all means, link it.

I mean none of the boss Kin are fodder, theyre just low on the totem pole with a confirmed hierarchy, though i can agree to what youre going for, especially with how Rom was able to affect the Amygdalae around Yharnam with her magic

In terms of our tiering system, I meant.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Where does this come from? I can only guess the Kos Parasite description but I'd always taken that to mean the corpse was taken by the sea/dumped to hide it, since that's sort of the whole point of Maria's shame and the reason the Nightmare has the whole "secret" theme. They slaughtered the creature and did what they could to hide it. If it's something else, by all means, link it.

Hmm...rereading though some of the lore stuff its actually never directly stated whether they killed her or if she was already dead and they just dissected her...maybe just go with a 'possibly' for Maria and Gehrman?

In terms of our tiering system, I meant.

Ah, fair, yeah that works then

 

[Mr. Bambu]

For Maria, I'd rather a "likely", even if it's down to semantics. I can agree to that. Though, logically, Gehrman ought to be 5-A anyways, given he's the final boss. This would go for Orphan too since you didn't comment on them.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Yeah i can agree to that as well, and sorry for the spotty responses i was out for a while and am just getting back

 

[Mr. Bambu]

All good. I'm working through rendering a fuckload of images for a new verse anyhow, not exactly attached to the thread. I just check the forum every now and then when my eyes need a break.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Also.

@Sir_Ovens

Also also.

Who the **** chose the artwork for the BB page lol. Some of it's fine but I'd be shocked if we couldn't find something a bit more fitting for Iosefka