Bleach - Seireitei Size Calculation

[Damage3245]

What exactly is our reason for using a panel and not using expressions? Except that expressions give very high panels give very low

I don't think it improves the accuracy to ignore a dozen visuals of the Seireitei and assume that Kubo's sole intent for the size of the Seireitei was in a statement he gave to Yoruichi really early on in the manga.

Somebody on the previous page said this:

I will just point out that some of the scans used in the OP aren't even consistent with each other. No one can seriously believe this (not sure why this is even in the OP since its from early Bleach where Kubo hasn't even properly designed the visuals for the Seireitei yet)

It's okay to believe Kubo hadn't properly designed the Seireitei at this point so visuals of it can be ignored, but we have to accept that Kubo properly planned the Seireitei to be a thousand kilometers wide at this point?

Doesn't the more recent information in the manga take precedent usually? If Kubo designed the Seireitei in the Thousand Year Blood War Arc to be a city and drew it fairly consistently throughout the arc, then can't we read into his intentions there a bit? What's so wrong about that - using what Kubo himself drew for the Seireitei in the last arc of the manga?

EDIT: Let me put it another way. You say that the visuals are inconsistent with each so we can dismiss all of the visuals. Then you bring up the statement and say "Nothing contradicts the statement".... Except for all of the visuals that you just got rid of earlier. By getting rid of the visuals for not perfectly agreeing with each other, you remove evidence that can be used against the statement-based calculation.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

The fact you're comparing inconsistent drawings of a massive structure that would be difficult to illustrate to statements that show the intent clearly is ridiculous. None of the images fully illustrate Seireitei which is what you need to get through your head. We have statements that show clear intent and other statements that outright state a size.

You're suggesting panels that differ virtually in every image is somehow more reliable. Panels that don't even show everything within them, therefore, making these drawings unreliable.

The most recent statements all suggest the structure is massive and this hasn't changed ever throughout every medium.

 

[AKUTO123]

I don't think it improves the accuracy to ignore a dozen visuals of the Seireitei and assume that Kubo's sole intent for the size of the Seireitei was in a statement he gave to Yoruichi really early on in the manga.

Somebody on the previous page said this:



It's okay to believe Kubo hadn't properly designed the Seireitei at this point so visuals of it can be ignored, but we have to accept that Kubo properly planned the Seireitei to be a thousand kilometers wide at this point?

Doesn't the more recent information in the manga take precedent usually? If Kubo designed the Seireitei in the Thousand Year Blood War Arc to be a city and drew it fairly consistently throughout the arc, then can't we read into his intentions there a bit? What's so wrong about that - using what Kubo himself drew for the Seireitei in the last arc of the manga?

If the size of a movie directed by Kubo is said to be exact, isn't it better than the panels that kubo did not strive to draw consistently?

 

[AKUTO123]

the film is not canon but as the director of the film why would kubo give the wrong information about the size of seiretei

 

[Damage3245]

If the size of a movie directed by Kubo is said to be exact, isn't it better than the panels that kubo did not strive to draw consistently?

It's not directed by Kubo. Kubo provided input, sure, but the movie itself is not canon. I don't believe that is the strongest figure we can go with.

Regarding the issue with the visuals, let me put it another way: You say that the visuals are inconsistent with each so we can dismiss all of the visuals. Then you bring up the statement and say "Nothing contradicts the statement".... Except for all of the visuals that you just got rid of earlier. By getting rid of the visuals for not perfectly agreeing with each other, you remove evidence that can be used against the statement-based calculation.

The visuals can't just be dismissed like that, so that the statement-based size appears stronger.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

They can be dismissed when they're entirely unreliable.

 

[SilentBob34]

There’s a visual that shows the seireitei having like only 4 buildings in it, should we use that one?

 

[Damage3245]

There’s a visual that shows the seireitei having like only 4 buildings in it, should we use that one?

No. I'm not saying artistic errors don't exist.

Not every visual and every drawing is equal.

But I can't agree with the idea that every single drawing of it has to be treated as unreliable because it doesn't conform to a calculated size based a statement.

 

[AKUTO123]

It's not directed by Kubo. Kubo provided input, sure, but the movie itself is not canon. I don't believe that is the strongest figure we can go with.

Regarding the issue with the visuals, let me put it another way: You say that the visuals are inconsistent with each so we can dismiss all of the visuals. Then you bring up the statement and say "Nothing contradicts the statement".... Except for all of the visuals that you just got rid of earlier. By getting rid of the visuals for not perfectly agreeing with each other, you remove evidence that can be used against the statement-based calculation.

The visuals can't just be dismissed like that, so that the statement-based size appears stronger.

kubo informed yes, and there is nothing more natural than the size of the seireitei one of the information he gives.
seiretei Canon is something that is also a story and is not a special location for the film, so wouldn't it be silly for kubo to let them give non-Canon information about it?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

There is clearly more going on than slight artistic error. There is literally a massive discrepancy between the images that people have been arguing about for years. Way to undersell the visual issue. And that's for literally every structure in the series implied to be massive.

 

[Purgy]

I've always believed statements should be held to a higher regard over visuals which are almost always inconsistent with each other, this is true for almost any mangaka, especially Kubo who basically draws buildings and such at different sizes on a whim.

Regardless, this has been discussed several times, and as far as I can see, the argument is literally the same as before, no reason this should be accepted.

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

Especially when Kubo is the guy who doesn't always draw the backgrounds and abuses white/black pages. Especially in the last arc when he is clearly wanting to rush it. He is not stopping by and recalling everything to add

 

[AKUTO123]

I think both sides gave their arguments. Is it put to the vote then?
Those who say keep the old calculation:
Those who say it should be rebuilt according to pixel measurement:
Those who say 600 ri statement is reliable, let's use it:
unbiased:

 

[Damage3245]

I think both sides gave their arguments. Is it put to the vote then?
Those who say keep the old calculation:
Those who say it should be rebuilt according to pixel measurement:
Those who say 600 ri statement is reliable, let's use it

There's still a lot more staff that I tagged who haven't given their input yet.

Putting this to a majority vote right away would be ridiculously biased. There are obviously a lot of Bleach supporters on this site.

 

[SilentBob34]

I’m in agreement with Damage to wait for some more staff too respond

 

[AKUTO123]

There's still a lot more staff that I tagged who haven't given their input yet.

Putting this to a majority vote right away would be ridiculously biased. There are obviously a lot of Bleach supporters on this site.

Is there anything left to discuss? Doesn't it make more sense to tag more staff and ask when comments are not yet a mess? I mean, I think all the arguments that can be given will be given something new if given within the 2 sides. the remaining members are staff and everyone's vote. Nobody will want to deal with it if it takes a long time

 

[AKUTO123]

I’m in agreement with Damage to wait for some more staff too respond

If the staff will give a new argument, they should respond, but if they are not going to give a new argument, it would be better for them to say which of these 3 options they agree with.

 

[Elizhaa]

I am neutral as I shared Shadowbokunohero's opinions, from what I read.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Thanks

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I do agree that the "10 Walkdays" statement is quite arbitrary given it's not really a specific measuring unit like miles or kilometers, and pixel scaling is often grossly inaccurate as not all panels have one to one dimensions drawn out correctly. However, I'm pretty sure Seireitei is still roughly a Country sized City for other reasons I talked about with Soldier Blue. It is noted that even with otherwise superhuman characters; it takes several says running strait just to reach one side from the other in one of the novels. And even the first time Ichigo's party went their they lost there breath just running for several days.

I do think it's worth recalculating using more reliable methods aside from the "10 Walkdays" statement and finding some good things to base pixel scaling off of and/or statements that use more appropriate values would be better, but there's a limit to how small it can be; it clearly has to be quite big for a City.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Thats why verbatim numericals given in Movie is being favoured by most users...

Besides the Movis only has non canon plot....but geography and cosmology remains same....setting is exact same as original. So I see no problem in using it.

Like we don't give DB movies different cosmologies and stuff do we just because they are non canon.

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

Thats why verbatim numericals given in Movie is being favoured by most users...

Besides the Movis only has non canon plot....but geography and cosmology remains same....setting is exact same as original. So I see no problem in using it.

Like we don't give DB movies different cosmologies and stuff do we just because they are non canon.

Imagine the headache it would be if it was

 

[Ovy7]

If you want to go with the movie numbers, you can have multiple ways for this, based on what Qawsedf said on the previous page:

1. Use the Ri which are given in the manga, i.e. 1 Ri = 3.93km, so Seireitei would be 600 * 3.93 = 2358 km in diameter
2. Use the lower end, i.e. 1 Ri = 0.5 km, so Seireitei would be 600 * 0.5 = 300 km in diameter
3. Use the average between them, i.e. 1 Ri = (3.93+0.5)/2 = 2.215 km, so Seireitei would be 600 * 2.215 = 1329 km in diameter (which is just a bit bigger than the current value based on Yoruichi's statement)

Just some options here.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

May I ask where 1 ri=0.5 km comes from??

 

[Purgy]

May I ask where 1 ri=0.5 km comes from??

If I'm not mistaken, there's both a Japanese and a Chinese Ri, the former is 3.9KM whereas the latter is 0.5KM

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

If I'm not mistaken, there's both a Japanese and a Chinese Ri, the former is 3.9KM whereas the latter is 0.5KM

Hmmm wouldn't the Jap one take precedence in this case??
I personally think it should....

 

[Damage3245]

The 0.5 KM figure is not based on anything relevant to Bleach, so I don't see why it would be in consideration.

 

[Purgy]

Hmmm wouldn't the Jap one take precedence in this case??
I personally think it should....

Yes, given that Bleach is written by Tite Kubo who is Japanese, but sometimes things have to be heavily lowballed to be accepted, so for the one in a billion chance Kubo decided to use the Chinese Ri it's put there as an option I guess.

At least I think that's why Ovy7 put it there, I could be entirely wrong.

 

[Ovy7]

Viz actually uses the 0.5 km Li in the fight between Ichibe and Yhwach, weirdly enough. My post above was based on what Qawsedf234 said in this post.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Should it not be the 3.9km since that’s the one used for the Toshiro vs Gin fight? It’s rather arbitrary for people in Seireitei who are part of the same organisation to be using different measurements. Plus Japanese ri makes more sense contextually.

 

[AKM sama]

I'd say not to use the author's art inconsistencies as a definite argument because authors are allowed to have inconsistent art. In that case, if a valid statement is available, that should preferably used. I said the same thing about Beefcake's size in an OPM thread recently, just because Murata draws the character at inconsistent sizes to exaggerate for visual aids doesn't mean we should reject the officially stated height.

 

[Damage3245]

I'd say not to use the author's art inconsistencies as a definite argument because authors are allowed to have inconsistent art. In that case, if a valid statement is available, that should preferably used. I said the same thing about Beefcake's size in an OPM thread recently, just because Murata draws the character at inconsistent sizes to exaggerate for visual aids doesn't mean we should reject the officially stated height.

Even though the art is not amazingly consistent (and I think it generally is in the last arc), the visuals are all consistently well below the thousands of kilometers you would get from extrapolating from Yoruichi's statement, or the non-canon statement in the movie.

When you have one piece of evidence saying 2300 kilometers and ten pieces of evidence saying it is far less than 2300 kilometers, why is the figure that comes from a statement considered the more consistent and reasonable figure?

I've also brought up other issues such as Shinigami mistaking Yhwach for being inside the barrier (even though he'd have to be hundreds of kilometers away for that to be the case) and Toshiro's concerns of Gerard falling enough on it being enough to annihilate the Seireitei.

The worst part about this is that it is being used to drastically inflate other calcs. I would rather a particular size not be used at all for it, rather than going for the highest-possible approach. If it is so drastically inconsistent, then let's not use it at all.

 

[AKM sama]

When you have one piece of evidence saying 2300 kilometers and ten pieces of evidence saying it is far less than 2300 kilometers, why is the figure that comes from a statement considered the more consistent and reasonable figure?

Because the other pieces of evidences are inherently more prone to errors and inconsistencies because it solely relies on the art of the author, while a statement does not. Your issue seems to be the extrapolation of the statement to calculate the entire size, something I can't comment on, but in cases like this, I'd naturally prefer a direct statement over the unreliable art of the author.

 

[Purgy]

Even though the art is not amazingly consistent (and I think it generally is in the last arc), the visuals are all consistently well below the thousands of kilometers you would get from extrapolating from Yoruichi's statement, or the non-canon statement in the movie.

When you have one piece of evidence saying 2300 kilometers and ten pieces of evidence saying it is far less than 2300 kilometers, why is the figure that comes from a statement considered the more consistent and reasonable figure?

I've also brought up other issues such as Shinigami mistaking Yhwach for being inside the barrier (even though he'd have to be hundreds of kilometers away for that to be the case) and Toshiro's concerns of Gerard falling enough on it being enough to annihilate the Seireitei.

The worst part about this is that it is being used to drastically inflate other calcs. I would rather a solid size not be used at all for it, rather than going for the highest-possible approach. If it is so drastically inconsistent, then let's not use it at all.

Because the art is heavily inconsistent with itself, no statement contradicts Yoruichi's statement and iirc it's actually supported by stuff in the novel.

If we use the Gerard destroying SS thing as fact then SS would be maybe a few hundred meters in diameter if that, so chalk that up to Kubo not caring how much KE Gerard would produce from falling.

As to your last point, given how many calcs use this, just removing the size entirely is completely not an option and you know it.

 

[Damage3245]

Because the art is heavily inconsistent with itself, no statement contradicts Yoruichi's statement and iirc it's actually supported by stuff in the novel.

The wide shots of the Seireitei are all consistent in the final arc. Not one of them supports a size of hundreds of kilometers across.

As to your last point, given how many calcs use this, just removing the size entirely is completely not an option and you know it.

It seems like a viable option to me.

At present only one calc in use actually depends on the size. There is one other, which is Yhwach's lifting strength calc which currently isn't in use.

Because the other pieces of evidences are inherently more prone to errors and inconsistencies because it solely relies on the art of the author, while a statement does not. Your issue seems to be the extrapolation of the statement to calculate the entire size, something I can't comment on, but in cases like this, I'd naturally prefer a direct statement over the unreliable art of the author.

If the art is considered so unreliable for it, then why do we use the art at all for Bleach? Shouldn't we remove all forms of scaling for Bleach that depend on the artwork?

If we use the Gerard destroying SS thing as fact then SS would be maybe a few hundred meters in diameter if that, so chalk that up to Kubo not caring how much KE Gerard would produce from falling.

You think Kubo doesn't care about that, but he absolutely cares about the extrapolated size calced based on Yoruichi's statement?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

If the art is considered so unreliable for it, then why do we use the art at all for Bleach? Shouldn't we remove all forms of scaling for Bleach that depend on the artwork?

Pray tell which particular artwork suffers from same kind of severe problems as size of Seretie??

 

[Purgy]

The wide shots of the Seireitei are all consistent in the final arc. Not one of them supports a size of hundreds of kilometers across.

But over the entirety of Bleach they're all heavily inconsistent with each other, we don't just single out the final arc.

It seems like a viable option to me.

At present only one calc in use actually depends on the size. There is one other, which is Yhwach's lifting strength calc which currently isn't in use.

Really? I thought we had many more calcs that relied on it, I guess those calcs might have been invalidated with the recent removal of basically 80% of Bleach's calcs.

Regardless, my point still stands, calcs should only be removed when there's really no option, otherwise blatant feats just get disregarded.

If the art is considered so unreliable for it, then why do we use the art at all for Bleach? Shouldn't we remove all forms of scaling for Bleach that depend on the artwork?

Because there's no other choice most of the time, statements should take priority, but that doesn't mean art can't be used when there's nothing else to go on, and again, nothing really contradicts Yoruichi's statement other than inconsistent art, and as I said a moment ago, I believe Yoruichi's statement is actually supported by things in the novel.

Can you please not structure your posts like that, it's extremely tedious to respond to.

 

[AKUTO123]

Other than damage, no one has a problem with the current size and seems to find it correct to determine its size based on statements.

 

[Damage3245]

Since I don't appear to be getting anywhere with this, I'll accept that it has been rejected and close it.