Bleach- PTS Speed Downgrade

[SilentBob34]

@Damage, I kinda agree with you there too, which again brings in the talk of actually using multipliers for anything and also brings in the question of any pre time skip character or any character weaker than tokinada being close to the speed of lightning or even slower.

Heck, even candice’s lighting was stated to be slower than actual lightning right? And wasn’t it also stated tokinada could have aim dodged the attack used against him? If we take the low end of lightning speed and apply it to Candice’s lightning, then it would make no sense for any pre time skip character to even be massively hypersonic in speed.

 

[Cyberblader90]

I think pre-time Skip being that high is fine given gins bankai

 

[Cyberblader90]

This makes me curious

Disregarding this calc, what are the fastest accepted calcs for the verse concurrently

But back to this, I recall mimihagi being calced at sub rel.

I don't recall what yhwach's death beam got, but I don't think it was above baseline light speed

 

[SilentBob34]

@Cyber, I think maybe like sub realistic+ for any seireitei to soul king palace feat? And a Uryu sub realistic perception feat that scales to absolutely no one and I kinda think is pointless to have. And having them at speed pre time skip doesn’t make sense with gin’s bankai since it would still mean a weaker Ichigo could somehow react to gin’s bankai, but stronger characters like shunsui, and tokinada consider it impressive to react to something slower? Yeah that would make no sense.

 

[Cyberblader90]

@Cyber, I think maybe like sub realistic+ for any seireitei to soul king palace feat? And a Uryu sub realistic perception feat that scales to absolutely no one and I kinda think is pointless to have. And having them at speed pre time skip doesn’t make sense with gin’s bankai since it would still mean a weaker Ichigo could somehow react to gin’s bankai, but stronger characters like shunsui, and tokinada consider it impressive to react to something slower? Yeah that would make no sense.

I've seen arguements ichigo aim dodged it but like I'm not sure that's what actually happened.

Ichigo being that fast I guess would be consistent with the possible lightning statement from the first Data book I guess

 

[SilentBob34]

@Cyber, that still doesn’t help anything since tokinada could’ve aim dodged a slower attack too depending on how you look at it. And I’m pretty sure that statement from the data book is I’m pretty sure pure hyperbole since it said something like he’s fast like lightning and not specifying he’s moving at the exact speed of lightning.

 

[Cyberblader90]

@Cyber, that still doesn’t help anything since tokinada could’ve aim dodged a slower attack too depending on how you look at it. And I’m pretty sure that statement from the data book is I’m pretty sure pure hyperbole since it said something like he’s fast like lightning and not specifying he’s moving at the exact speed of lightning.

I recall the "like lightning" possibly being a miss translation.

Also I think if I'm not mistaken the petal cutting feet for that Ichigo is currently accepted as massively hypersonic

regardless this sub discussion is not too important to the point of the CRT unless we start discussing the possibility of outlier as well at least to a further level

 

[Ovy7]

Heck, even candice’s lighting was stated to be slower than actual lightning right?

No? Only the reishi arrows imbued with lightning were stated by Ginjo to be slower than the speed of lightninghe thought lightning had, as the narrator said that thise arrows moved fast enough to be genuinly called lightning speed.

And this is for her arrows only, her Electrocution is directly stated to be above any lightning in the realm of nature.

 

[SilentBob34]

Honestly, after seeing after wacky bleach seems to be with their speed, I do agree this feat is an outlier even if it’s a legit light speed attack. And I think Ichigo petal cutting feat could be considered an outlier as well given it’s pretty close to the low end speed of lightning we use for candice and other far more powerful characters that would scale to it.

I mean seriously, an ichigo that just attained his bankai being comparable in speed to characters like shunsui who have thousands of years worth of training? Even being comparable to byakuya makes no sense but he is for plot reasons. If we’re gonna make sure everything is as accurate and scientific as possible then I think this 100% needs to be looked at.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Tbf, the way it's worded doesn't necessarily mean speed per say
For electrocution I mean, but that doesn't really matter in this thread

 

[SilentBob34]

@Oxy, and we do rate her arrows at the low end of lightning speed so it’s technically “lightning speed” as well as rating her electrocution as the normal or high end of lightning speed. None of her other lightning or arrow attacks are rated at regular lightning speed.

 

[Cyberblader90]

I think the currently accepted massively hypersonic stuff for characters can stay. I frankly have no issue because they're consistent enough.

Outlier wasn't even my initial argument against the renji calc but it seems it's something that's definitely going to come up in the thread anyway

 

[SilentBob34]

@Cyber, that’s kinda how it’s been working lately though. We have a single statement her arrows are slower than lightning so we accept that all of her attacks are slower than regular lightning. But we’ll ignore multiple other statements of different things because it’s left up to interpretation I guess.

 

[Ovy7]

You know what, I'm out. I'll just be around here checking for Mach 7 God Tiers in a month.

 

[SilentBob34]

I think it being an outlier is more important than anything else, and with character comparable to Renji thinking slow lightning attacks are impressive, I think we should just discuss the outlier part now.

 

[Cyberblader90]

@Cyber, that’s kinda how it’s been working lately though. We have a single statement her arrows are slower than lightning so we accept that all of her attacks are slower than regular lightning. But we’ll ignore multiple other statements of different things because it’s left up to interpretation I guess.

well that's an entirely separate discussion and frankly could just mean that the arrows are slower than everything else she uses for her moveset. I don't think that necessarily creates too many issues

Mach 7 God tiers is stupid. Like seriously I dare you to find someone who actually buys that

 

[SilentBob34]

@Oxy, sorry to hear you’re leaving the thread dude, I’m still all for light speed and above bleach, but I just can’t find the will to argue for it when everything has to be picture perfect.

 

[Cyberblader90]

To get the thread back on its point

Summary for my points:
None of the statements from mask mean the beam was reflected

Given the depiction of the supposed reflection and the heat absorption issue I brought up the "light" most likely did not reflect

even in the one possible scenario can you can argue for some sort of reflection, it behaves nothing like that version of reflection

the beam also made a sound upon impact which could have been from Force which acts as an anti-feat

And to add on giving the concurrent discussion
the feat doubles potentially as travel speed which is inherently contradicted within the war Arc at least for renji who performed the feat

 

[SilentBob34]

@Cyber, but.. her arrows are pretty much her main move set other than her lightning swords and lightning attacks. She’s rated as massively hypersonic with all her attacks except for electrocution so I assume all her attacks other than that are as fast as her arrows.

 

[Damage3245]

One of the fastests calcs currently in use is True Shikai Ichigo's combat speed being just above Mach 4000, based on deflecting the Sternritter girls arrows.

 

[SilentBob34]

I completely agree with Cyber on those points now.

 

[Cyberblader90]

One of the fastests calcs currently in use is True Shikai Ichigo's combat speed being just above Mach 4000, based on deflecting the Sternritter girls arrows.

I see it uses the current vsb number for lightning speed so I can see why it got that high

Fair enough.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Outlier cannot be a thing with Renji’s light feat. He just got done with RG training which is a massive amp for everyone who too k part in it. He has no anti feats with the only other person he fights being Gerard (who is beyond all of the normal Ritters not called Gremmy) and Vollstandig Bazz B, who only loses to Jugram (way above the normal Ritters) while in base, gets tagged by Toshiro while still in base (holding back and purposefully going out of his way to prove Toshiro is trash to him), and tagged by Yama (> every captain in TYBW) but still able to deflect his fire and react in base. Base Auswhalen Gerard only has scaling to Renji which means Renji has nothing to go against said feat and basically everyone who even scales, upscales from his feat.

 

[SilentBob34]

@Damage, thank you for providing that calc, that I think helps prove no one should be around massively hypersonic+ considering how superior true shikai ichigo is compared to everyone. He was stated to be one of the only people to beat hikone who could’ve become the soul king.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Outlier cannot be a thing with Renji’s light feat. He just got done with RG training which is a massive amp for everyone who too k part in it. He has no anti feats with the only other person he fights being Gerard (who is beyond all of the normal Ritters not called Gremmy) and Vollstandig Bazz B, who only loses to Jugram (way above the normal Ritters) while in base, gets tagged by Toshiro while still in base (holding back and purposefully going out of his way to prove Toshiro is trash to him), and tagged by Yama (> every captain in TYBW) but still able to deflect his fire and react in base. Base Auswhalen Gerard only has scaling to Renji which means Renji has nothing to go against said feat and basically everyone who even scales, upscales from his feat.

The outlier argument, at least from my perspective is not so much from what you're discussing but rather that it doubles potentially as a travel speed feat.

Logically if he is capable of traveling at the speed of light for sustained movement he should be able to cross a good distance of the area he is fighting in.

The issue is we see him and rukia running in some points and they are clearly not traversing kilometers or more within small time frames

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Damage’s calc doesn’t even work when he uses the distance between Ichigo and one of the arrows furthest away from him. There are arrows closer to him which he still needs to smack away first before he goes for that one.

 

[SilentBob34]

@Cyber, do you think we should rate them at superhuman running speed? Even if they were Mach 1, they could’ve traveled much further than what was shown.

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

I am completely losing faith here.

 

[SilentBob34]

@Anonymous, I agree but Damage’s calc is what everyone thinks makes sense so we gotta accept it.

 

[Damage3245]

Damage’s calc doesn’t even work when he uses the distance between Ichigo and one of the arrows furthest away from him. There are arrows closer to him which he still needs to smack away first before he goes for that one.

If we were only calculating the movement of Ichigo deflecting a single arrow, then using the one closest to him would make sense.

But the calc is for Ichigo's speed when he's deflecting all of the arrows. Which makes the one furthest away from him more reasonable to use.

 

[Cyberblader90]

@Cyber, do you think we should rate them at superhuman running speed? Even if they were Mach 1, they could’ve traveled much further than what was shown.

I don't get the point of this
if you have a light speed travel speed you could literally circle the Earth several times over

If there is a distinction between reactions and travel sure, then the outlier argument falls apart.


but then you have to distinguish what is the difference between the two movement wise

We don't know renji's exact starting position so it could have been a decent distance which would paint it more so as travel as well.

I also made sure to mention it was possibly a travel speed feat not objectively

 

[AnonymousBlank]

You missed the point Damage. He has to hit the one closest to him as a bare minimum. If he goes for the furthest one first, the rest get closer and he now has to be even faster to hit them due to them being closer. The others won’t stay still for him or get further away.

 

[SilentBob34]

@Dangai, I’ve already pretty much lost faith before and after this tread was created lol. i see really no point in trying to defend their stats anymore.

@Damage so if someone shot a bunch of arrows at you, it wouldn’t make sense to deflect the ones closest to you before the ones further to you? I’m a little confused on how that makes sense. Can you explain?

 

[Cyberblader90]

If there are issues with damages calc, wouldn't that require a separate CRT?

Save that discussion for another thread

 

[SilentBob34]

@Cyber, there’s a lot of verses that don’t distinguish that I’m pretty sure. But again, that kinda goes back to being nit picky about every little thing when it was never a problem before. I still agree it’s an outlier though.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

The point of there being issues with Damage’s calc is that people can’t use it as evidence that people cannot be above X speed since I apparently have to argue against this weird idea that Renji’s feat is an outlier.

 

[Arcker123]

outlier to what

 

[Cyberblader90]

@Cyber, there’s a lot of verses that don’t distinguish that I’m pretty sure. But again, that kinda goes back to being nit picky about every little thing when it was never a problem before. I still agree it’s an outlier though.

I think what this would be far less "bit picky" than anything else really. If they have light speed travel speed, that would affect several aspects of scaling in the war Arc including certain distances.

Sure some verses don't differentiate but that doesn't necessarily mean that applies to bleach

 

[Cyberblader90]

The point of there being issues with Damage’s calc is that people can’t use it as evidence that people cannot be above X speed since I apparently have to argue against this weird idea that Renji’s feat is an outlier.

Eh.
I don't think that calc really objectively puts this one as an outlier.

Personally I feel like the travel speed issue is far greater of a thing to discuss

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

Outlier to the fact we don't have any proper speed calcs and anything that does get calc gets rejected for some lack of reason or another. For the love of my Country which is also almost non existent, what the hell