Bleach- PTS Speed Downgrade

[Cyberblader90]

problem with is the blade is Reflective. I believe sigurd mentioned that there are 6 scans or so depicting the swords as having that property.
Reflection in this case is mandated per the guidelines:
Laser/Light Beam Dodging Feats | VS Battles Wiki | Fandom

Burning doesnt inherently prove its light speed, its just not an anti feat for it

Heat can be generated by beams that aren't actual light or made of photons, in which absorption on that surface can still happen.

We know at the very minimum it has a high degree of heat, given what it did to that captains chest.

What we have now is this:
Light didnt reflect

it has lost one the actual components needed.
The only thing it has for primary components is being called light.

This is without bringing up the sfx point, which I havent dropped, moreso sidelined for the moment

 

[Arcker123]

dismiss this as what?

 

[Axxtentacle]

The sfx point is from viz, which you aren't using. We already established that the klang isn't there in the raws.

You can say it didn't reflect, but, like I said before, that hinges entirely on what definition of "repel" you choose to use.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Cyber, no joke, the downgrades probably gonna happen so there isn’t really any point in arguing for it. Honestly, after seeing Imade’s arguments be disregarded on the god tier downgrade thread, who’s one of the most knowledgeable people on bleach, I’m fully convinced that anyone who has no knowledge of the series and rely fully on real life physics can do what they want with the Bleach franchise

I watched that thread. To be honest, uni could stay for all i care, i think its debatable. Heck i asked dragon to post something to at least salvage it as environmental destruction, which got ignored. that has nothing to do with this thread though.

 

[Cyberblader90]

for the sfx i mean this

Its a sound effect regardless. kubo uses these alot

And it not reflecting doesnt need the repel definition (although neither definition helps the argument), it just needs the heat point

 

[Axxtentacle]

Unless i'm missing something, none of those are what's on the panel, no?

 

[Axxtentacle]

Honestly, should this just be postponed till the Auschwalen stuff is done? If that is accepted as FTL, then that would be a supporting feat for this. If it's not, we should be able to dismiss this, no?

Do you think this is reasonable for now?

 

[Cyberblader90]

im against closing this. is the Auschwalen light concurrently a crt?

Notice the symbol on the right. Its some sort of sound effect, most likely the reason viz chose klang. It doesnt have to be klang. Any sound will do as anti feat of light, because that implies force, which means mass

 

[Axxtentacle]

Could very well be a sizzle, since the beam has heat.

Pretty sure the Auschwalen thing is a calc going on rn, i'm not 100% sure though.

 

[Cyberblader90]

well if its a calc that hasnt gotten a crt yet, I dont see a reason to close this yet.

If it was a sizzle, would it immediately be done upon impact?
Lets look at it from kubo's angle. Registering this affect as sizzling would benefit most with a focus on the blade being heated, or in the next scan with smoke present.

Instead the effect is for the impact, and then the cut is the smoke

 

[Axxtentacle]

The beam burns stuff, so it could be.

I don't think this sfx point really means much, as unless it gets translated, we don't know what it proves.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Ill put in for request if you want.

Sent it

My other point regarding the heat and reflection is still open

 

[Reio35]

The beam doesn't have any of these anti feats so i think it's legit

Furthermore, there are a few criteria which show a beam is NOT real light:

• It is shown at different speeds in the same material
• It is tangible and can be interacted with physically by normal humans
• They do not travel in straight lines (unless you can prove refraction/reflection, see above)

 

[Cyberblader90]

those dont prove its light speed, re read the light speed standards

I have already shown 1 issue, that is no reflection

The other is on hold till we get a translation

 

[Reio35]

those dont prove its light speed, re read the light speed standards

I have already shown 1 issue, that is no reflection

The other is on hold till we get a translation

Could have swore even the viz translations confirmed he "turned it aside" meaning deflection/reflection

 

[Cyberblader90]

read up
the raw says "repelled"

 

[Reio35]

read up
the raw says "repelled"

Repel means the same thing if we use the Oxford definition

drive or force (an attack or attacker) back or away.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Read the entire discussion please.

I explained already why that would not mean a reflection of light

https://vsbattles.com/threads/bleach-pts-speed-downgrade.112335/post-3572226

 

[Ovy7]

Reading the arguments here made me realize that the bleach side on VSBW is kinda dead, either because of people leaving or not wanting to engage anymore in CRTs. I'm probably of the latter, but I'll still say 1 thing before going out:

The shape of the star on Zabimaru is different from the shape of the star left on Rojuro (?) which was a perfect star shape, while we can see slights distortions in the light on the sword and that it's not a perfect star form like on Rojuro, meaning that it indeed reflacted (or reflected, dunno english):
Rojuro's wound:

Spoiler

The star on Zabimaru:

Spoiler

 

[Cyberblader90]

So an issue, disregarding possible art inconsistencies.

Going under the notion that it expanded out, that's still wouldn't be proper reflection. The blade is a flat surface and the light would have to shoot out that an angle.

The light upon the impacting is just expanding out which is not reflection

 

[Reio35]

Read the entire discussion please.

I explained already why that would not mean a reflection of light

https://vsbattles.com/threads/bleach-pts-speed-downgrade.112335/post-3572226

If your argument is that light can't exude force your wrong

https://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=25334&t=force-of-light


Hello Matt,

Yes indeed, light can generate a force. I remind you that the full relativistic formula for energy, mass, and momentum is E2 = m2c4 + p2 . Although photons have no rest-mass, m, they do carry momentum p. Now a force is generated by a transfer of momentum so a light beam incident and absorbed by an object will experience a force. This can be easily verified in the lab with a laser beam.

Even from the classical point of view electromagnetic waves can cause a force. For example the force on a charged particle is F = q(E + V x B) which implies that electromagnetic fields carry momentum. If you view a photon as a classical wave it still carries momentum.

This is from a University

 

[Ovy7]

So an issue, disregarding possible art inconsistencies.

Going under the notion that it expanded out, that's still wouldn't be proper reflection. The blade is a flat surface and the light would have to shoot out that an angle.

The light upon the impacting is just expanding out which is not reflection

A blade, especially Zabimaru, isn't exactly a flat surface like a mirror tho.

 

[Cyberblader90]

It doesn't have to be exactly flat.

It should still be at angle

Reflection of light

Reflection is when light bounces off an object. If the surface is smooth and shiny, like glass, water or polished metal, the light will reflect at the same angle as it hit the surface. This is called specular reflection.

www.sciencelearn.org.nz

You can argue with something like diffusion reflection although I would need to find a quick citation on the angle it goes about for that method

Molecular Expressions Microscopy Primer: Light and Color - Specular and Diffuse Reflection: Interactive Tutorial

The amount of light reflected by an object, and how it is reflected, is highly dependent upon the smoothness or texture of the surface. This interactive tutorial explores how light waves are reflected by smooth and rough surfaces.

micro.magnet.fsu.edu

so upon checking the sequence in the manga doesn't seem to match what diffusion reflection would be like. The light should be shooting out at an irregular range but still at an angle, not like the seemingly flat star on zabimaru

 

[Cyberblader90]

If your argument is that light can't exude force your wrong

https://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=25334&t=force-of-light


Hello Matt,

Yes indeed, light can generate a force. I remind you that the full relativistic formula for energy, mass, and momentum is E2 = m2c4 + p2 . Although photons have no rest-mass, m, they do carry momentum p. Now a force is generated by a transfer of momentum so a light beam incident and absorbed by an object will experience a force. This can be easily verified in the lab with a laser beam.

Even from the classical point of view electromagnetic waves can cause a force. For example the force on a charged particle is F = q(E + V x B) which implies that electromagnetic fields carry momentum. If you view a photon as a classical wave it still carries momentum.

This is from a University

Photons have such miniscule momentum that they wouldn't be able to create sound like that

If we want to argue it did well



"Photons have momentum. Incidentally, they don't have much -- if I hit you with a laser pulse with as much momentum as a thrown baseball (roughly 5 Ns), that would be 1.5GJ: about as much as hitting you with small cruise missile. So, knocking you back without vaporizing you would be impossible."

Would need to produce a large amount of energy. Not only would the sword be smoking, the air would be literally burning. Everything around the area would be burning

 

[SilentBob34]

@Cyber, can you provide a scan from another scan from a manga that fits exactly what you just said? Because this is honestly becoming so nit picky it’s kinda ridiculous.

 

[Cyberblader90]

@Cyber, can you provide a scan from another scan from a manga that fits exactly what you just said? Because this is honestly becoming so nit picky it’s kinda ridiculous.

I'll go with the example I told you about earlier first

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/772926139181826078/782762333704814642/image0.png

This is laser circus which emits light beams according to the data book in Naruto

Notice how the beam curves.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/566426072380604426/809334153870180362/image0-67.png

This is impossible given that it's reflecting off water. To do so means it's accelerating which means it does not have a constant speed.

Have you ever heard of the statement the speed of light is constant?

There's an explicit reason as that has to do with that photons remain in that speed constantly without any added acceleration.

As such it would be impossible to say that this is traveling at the speed of light

 

[SilentBob34]

Yeah no offense, but comparing Mask’s beam of light to the beam of light you just provided makes no comparison at all. Mask’s beam is completely straight and the scan you provided all the beams curve everywhere. And trying to include the water when Mask’s attack had no water around him to disprove it doesn’t really help imo.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Yeah no offense, but comparing Mask’s beam of light to the beam of light you just provided makes no comparison at all. Mask’s beam is completely straight and the scan you provided all the beams curve everywhere. And trying to include the water when Mask’s attack had no water around him to disprove it doesn’t really help imo.

what I posted had nothing to do with mask but was rather just a further clarification of what I told you in the prior page.

Why exactly do you need a comparison to mask?

I've already explained from a scientific standpoint why the light is not going at the speed of light.

That is to say it does not reflect or the manner of which is being extrapolated that it is reflecting is impossible or rather irregular enough to put into question whether or not it is actually light speed.

There is the heavy possibility that it created sound upon impacting with the blade which discredits it being light speed.

The other potential issue and one I have not brought up in the opening is that depending on the distance that renji crossed and assuming it is light speed, the feat would also apply for travel speed.

I hope I don't have to explain why this is problematic for the war Arc at least specifically for him. There are sequences in which he's traveling in the soul society and is not crossing a sufficient amount of distance if he truly was the speed of light for travel.

The argument of reactions or combat speed wouldn't really save this, if he crossed a significant enough distance in The mask situation

 

[AKM sama]

I am just gonna say that repelled doesn't mean reflected. Deflect doesn't mean reflect either. "Oh he repelled/deflected my attack" does not mean "he reflected my attack with the same angle of reflection as the angle of incidence" in the context that we use for light. I don't see why people are arguing for that point only. If there are other points, those should be discussed instead.

 

[Torsin]

As Ovy stated here the beam of light is clearly being reflected after hitting renji's sword. Everything else being discussed here is extremely nitpicky to the point that the op expects the author to study the angle the light is hitting renjis sword and draw the exact angle it would be reflected at. With this logic each and every light speed feat can be debunked as not being light if it does'nt reflect at the perfect angle.

 

[SilentBob34]

@Cyber, again, I feel like you’re being way to nit picky about this, and I really hope you go through every verse that has a beam of light that’s considered light speed and make sure they fit what you this is the exact criteria. But AKM sama makes a good point with what he said.

 

[Cyberblader90]

@Cyber, again, I feel like you’re being way to nit picky about this, and I really hope you go through every verse that has a beam of light that’s considered light speed and make sure they fit what you this is the exact criteria. But AKM sama makes a good point with what he said.

If I have the time and the presentation of such feats make it impossible to objectively say that it's light speed sure. I have no hypocritical intentions here. Take Delta for example. The same argument would agree can be applied for her although there is a weird novel statement that someone mitigates the issue of her beams exploding

 

[Cyberblader90]

As Ovy stated here the beam of light is clearly being reflected after hitting renji's sword. Everything else being discussed here is extremely nitpicky to the point that the op expects the author to study the angle the light is hitting renjis sword and draw the exact angle it would be reflected at. With this logic each and every light speed feat can be debunked as not being light if it does'nt reflect at the perfect angle.

The angle is not the only issue. Reflection is such doesn't work given the presented heat absorption which caused the smoke.

The argument can also be made that the beam rather expanded out. For both sequences of the beam we don't see the very edge of it until it's hit the target, but if we go with the artistic angle given to us for the beam its seemingly circular. Given that it's very much possible that the expansion on the sword is simply the same thing that happened to the captain which is to say the beam expands out as a star as part of its properties.

even if we disregard that possibility there is still the notion that it created sound upon impact which would definitely be an anti-feat for it being light speed.

I think people take the speed of light with far too much leisure. It has a lot of functions which allow it to go that fast in real life.

 

[AKM sama]

I remember @Soldier_Blue having some thoughts about speed in general, so I am pinging him to see if he wants to give his opinion here.

 

[SilentBob34]

@cyber, I would appreciate if you can provide that statement because I don’t know much about naruto after shippuden. You’re wanting to crack down on the standards so hard that practically any light speed feat other than a flight one is pretty much impossible.

 

[Cyberblader90]

@cyber, I would appreciate if you can provide that statement because I don’t know much about naruto after shippuden. You’re wanting to crack down on the standards so hard that practically any light speed feat other than a flight one is pretty much impossible.

I can post that statement tomorrow.

The context of it is that we are given a temperature for her beams as it's the same technology used in one of the novels that manipulates photons and super heats them to such a degree that it literally vaporizes humans

 

[SilentBob34]

@Cyber, and it’s going to say pretty much exactly what you said has to pass for light speed right?

I’ll believe you if it provides a detailed scientific explaination as to why Delta’s beam don’t explode or expand .

 

[Cyberblader90]

@Cyber, and it’s going to say pretty much exactly what you said has to pass for light speed right?

I'm pretty sure the main issue always with her beams were that they explode.

If her beams have any other issues they would be for sure worth exploring

 

[Damage3245]

My thoughts on the feat is that Renji's performance is closer to an outlier, but more than that - the subsequent scaling and overuse of multipliers that result in MFTL ratings for characters who sorely lack any supporting feats of being that fast is what is really closer to being an outlier.

There's also some lightning speed feats from the novels which lead me to believe it is an outlier; like it being stated that it is impressive for Tokinada to potentially be able to react to lightning, and Candice having confidence that people wouldn't be able to avoid lightning until she met Ichigo.

 

[Cyberblader90]

This makes me curious

Disregarding this calc, what are the fastest accepted calcs for the verse concurrently