Bleach- PTS Speed Downgrade

[Cyberblader90]

That's the current interpretation.
One of which I'm asking a fluent speaker on concurrently

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I am strongly in favor of not treating the attack as lightspeed by default.

we already know

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

It’s literally called beam of light in the English translation.

I checked the manga again to crossreference the ENG version and this looks about correct. 光線/Kōsen could also mean light ray, ray, or beam so either word you use here is fine enough in my book.

The translator already confirmed it checks out. That’s the only thing that matter.

Renji diverting it away with his metal sword is the 2nd point.

It has none of the anti feats which makes the attack LIKELY light speed.

 

[AKM sama]

like it has been said multiple times already AKM the sounds are of renji drawing his sword

Can you show him drawing his sword? I see a pic where his sword is brought in front of the attack. The same panel contains the sound effect. The more logical interpretation would be that the sound effects accompany what's actually happening there on the same panel. That is, movement of sword, and impact of attack.

Or maybe both sounds happened together because it's obviously happening very fast and the sword was still in a bit of motion at the same time the attack was blocked. If both of them are happening almost simultaneously, the placement of the sound effects won't matter much in that case. And it doesn't make logical sense to explain a sound effect using an assumption that is not accompanied by the visual. Sfx are used to go with the visuals. The whole thing puts a big question mark on it.

I guess we will just disagree on that point then.

 

[Cyberblader90]

For the sound point, I think the middle pass to the whole thing is to just wait for a second translation

I will respond to sigurd after I finish lunch

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Going against this is incredibly hypocritical in literally every way. Nitpicking this into bloody oblivion. I wasn’t even aware of thins sound thing until it was used on a Blesch thread. There isn’t a single other verse that has to go through this for laser like attacks.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Going against this is incredibly hypocritical in literally every way. Nitpicking this into bloody oblivion. I wasn’t even aware of thins sound thing until it was used on a Blesch thread. There isn’t a single other verse that has to go through this for laser like attacks.

u cant expect more from them

 

[Arcker123]

If multiple sources agree that mask referring to light is valid, then it is probably the correct interpretation

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Please note that the opposite of these criteria do not prove a beam is at lightspeed, merely that it could be, should it meet the first list of criteria. Should there be great evidence in favor of the light being real or lightspeed, comparably minor showing against it being real can be overruled.

Even the god damn light page states that the other points aren’t mainly used as evidence but it does help solidify it should it meet some of the actual requirements. Mask meets 2 pieces of actual evidence and has none of the listed anti feats. It even literally says minor things can be overruled.

This is not a full list of qualities that can qualify/disqualify a feat as a true laser/light beam, but they are what is taken as basic by this wiki.

So please for the love of god stop with the recent constant over analysis of everything in Bleach.

 

[Cyberblader90]

How is it hypocritical?

I share the same standards for any light feat period

The issue with sound specifically is it means there was a impact Force which means there was acceleration for the light which is inherently problematic because photons are supposed to have a constant speed

The other thing is having more mass than photons should have

So you already have two problems regarding that regarding just making a sound

Not to mention something producing a sound like that would also be causing decent area of effect destruction although you could chalk that up to the beam being concentrated

I don't know why you say it meets two criteria

It does not meet reflection.

You are free to provide me any sort of citation or source that proves that sequence is reflection

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

Pretty sure one of the problems is that there's disparity between tiers, which was one of the constant reminders in the Downgrade thread. Shouldn't there be more proper speed calcs instead of literally using only a few?

 

[Arcker123]

Pretty sure one of the problems is that there's disparity between tiers,

Again outlier being overused

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Pretty sure one of the problems is that there's disparity between tiers, which was one of the constant reminders in the Downgrade thread. Shouldn't there be more proper speed calcs instead of literally using only a few?

we had a lot of calcs for speed until damage decided to erase them and create his own and only his

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

Again outlier being overused

Yeah pretty much but that's because we literally have almost no proper calcs

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

How is it hypocritical?

Is this a serious question? It was accepted already by calc group and admins. And no other verse with light speed attack from a manga has to answer ridiculous questions about sound effects. You can’t show me 1 for sure.

I share the same standards for any light feat period

You don’t get to decided if it is or not though. So clearly this isn’t true when the attack was literally accepted.

The issue with sound specifically is it means there was a impact Force which means there was acceleration for the light which is inherently problematic because photons are supposed to have a constant speed

Show me a scan of it moving at different speeds.

The other thing is having more mass than photons should have

So you already have two problems regarding that regarding just making a sound

Not to mention something producing a sound like that would also be causing decent area of effect destruction although you could chalk that up to the beam being concentrated

Show me a scan of that laser doing that. Should probably point out there are many light speed abilities that make explosions. I’ve literally seen admins say stop using explosions as some sort of counter.

I don't know why you say it meets two criteria

It does not meet reflection.

Deflect/reflect whatever don’t be superficial. Clearly it was accepted as a point already so I will use it as a point. Maybe next we should argue about color of the beam to go full circle.

 

[Arcker123]

Nitpicking: The thread

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Nitpicking: The thread

more accurate would be

"Nitpicking bleach: the thread"

 

[AKUTO123]

I guess we will just disagree on that point then.

You cannot agree with us on anything in Bleach, but what you say is valid.

 

[Arcker123]

"Nitpicking bleach: the thread"

i mean this is technically correct but mine is easier to say

 

[Cyberblader90]

Sound Issue:
Force, Mass & Acceleration: Newton's Second Law of Motion | Live Science
Force is equal to the change in momentum per change in time. For a constant mass, force equals mass times acceleration." This is written in mathematical form as F = ma

If it made a sound, thats from impact the blade. requires force, which means acceleration

The Speed of Light Is Constant: Einstein | AMNH
Speed of light is constant, it doesnt acclelerate.

Which means the beam isnt constant in speed if it is light

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/physics/chapter/29-4-photon-momentum/

Physics

To create that sound mass would need to be higher than what photons have (its minuscule), alongside more momentum

Issues regarding reflection:

Zabimaru is a non flat surface, as such light can only reflect in what is called Diffusion Reflection
Molecular Expressions Microscopy Primer: Light and Color - Specular and Diffuse Reflection: Interactive Tutorial (fsu.edu)

Light reflects off at different angles of the surface, but not flatly.

For the star, if expands out like a 2d surface, on a non flat surface. no form of reflection works like this, because photons cant do that.

Other issue is heat



The heat presented in the scene would dictate everything around needing to burn, not just the hit target. this is circumvented via the beam being concentrated.
Although that creates another issue with reflection. If the beam is concentrated it should deflect like this:


Although less extreme, regardless of the type of surface.

That doesnt happen with the beam.

Other stuff
It being previously accepted doesnt make it objective or immune to criticism/analysis. Several calcs over the years were accepted by admins, and then revoked later.

In regards to deflect/reflect, it was actually "repel". As brought up by akm and two pages of debates, that doesnt mean reflect

 

[Arcker123]

Before we continue on this "sound issue" debunk the kanji that state the sfx was just renji sword being unsheathed and moving

 

[Cyberblader90]

In regards to the translation, the kanji can also mean beam or ray without the word "light". Its also an attack name, like all most of mask's moves.

Even if not, thats 1 condition met only, not 2

 

[Arcker123]

In regards to the translation, the kanji can also mean beam or ray without the word "light". Its also an attack name, like all most of mask's moves.

This is not my argument, also he does not call his attack beam of light, he states that it is after firing

 

[Cyberblader90]

Before we continue on this "sound issue" debunk the kanji that state the sfx was just renji sword being unsheathed and moving

The sound thing in that response was for sigurd only, since he said it was a nitpick. Currently waiting on a second translation. if it comes out as arc said, then sure, point moot.

We still have the reflection issue

post was mainly for sigurd

 

[Arcker123]

The sound thing in that response was for sigurd only, since he said it was a nitpick. Currently waiting on a second translation. if it comes out as arc said, then sure, point moot.

This is one of the main reason for the downgrade and we already have a translation

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

This is one of the main reason for the downgrade and we already have a translation

a point that was used on the old thread and debunked

 

[YukaSama4]

The sound thing in that response was for sigurd only, since he said it was a nitpick. Currently waiting on a second translation. if it comes out as arc said, then sure, point moot.

did you ask the site translator about the raws for this?

 

[Cyberblader90]

This is one of the main reason for the downgrade and we already have a translation

It is yes, which is why im waiting on a fluent speaker i asked. they are asleep right now.

And as I also mentioned, in case that point gets bunk, reflection is still on the table

 

[Cyberblader90]

did you ask the site translator about the raws for this?

I did. they said they dont have experience on sfx

 

[Arcker123]

Arc stated that he took japanese classes in college.

I did. they said they dont have experience on sfx

Ok........... why not use arcs translation

 

[AKUTO123]

a point that was used on the old thread and debunked

Are there any issues that have been previously disproved for bleach. I think it is free to reopen issues that were previously considered refuted.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Are there any issues that have been previously disproved for bleach. I think it is free to reopen issues that were previously considered refuted.

old arguments that where debunked hold no weight if nothing new is brought up, this goes for all verses

 

[Arcker123]

Reddit is also a credible source now.......

 

[YukaSama4]

I did. they said they dont have experience on sfx

then we should drop this point because no one disagrees with the raws text that Arc said
Arc is trusted in translation
so what's the next point here?

 

[YukaSama4]

let's just try to argue the points one by one without any irrelevant topics, people are starting complaining about how far this thread has gone in only one day, so let's just discuss the important points please everyone

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

There isn’t anything that suggests the beam moved a different speed at all within the manga. Stop this it’s fiction. You literally can’t even prove this since there is no other object to compare it too or a statement suggesting this.

Dude a light attack bouncing off a metal object is a point for reflection. You’re going way to into specifics.

This sound shit you’re using to support your argument shouldn’t even be a thing. Just like how exploding lasers aren’t treated as anti feats. Focus on what’s on the page.

You’re over analyzing this to try to find an issue with said attack.

 

[Cyberblader90]

alright so. Like i said, i have no bias on this
outside translator got this for mask
unknown.png (442×26) (discordapp.com)

"hero's light ray"

Whether or not thats literal is a separate discussion, but im fine with that part

Also reddit has been used as sources on several threads ive seen for translations and citations for things

 

[Cyberblader90]

There isn’t anything that suggests the beam moved a different speed at all within the manga. Stop this it’s fiction.

Dude a light attack bouncing off a metal object is a point for reflection. You’re going way to into specifics.

This sound shit you’re using to support your argument shouldn’t even be a thing. Just like how exploding lasers aren’t treated as anti feats. Focus on what’s on the page.

You’re over analyzing this to try to find an issue with said attack.

Sound applies to the part regarding a change in speed, via acceleration

 

[Cyberblader90]

let's just try to argue the points one by one without any irrelevant topics, people are starting complaining about how far this thread has gone in only one day, so let's just discuss the important points please everyone

I have no issue with arc, but a second source was asked for. other issue is just eyeballing is that there may discrepancies for the sfx on the scan what he got. Im waiting on a second opinion for cross reference

 

[Arcker123]

alright so. Like i said, i have no bias on this
outside translator got this for mask
unknown.png (442×26) (discordapp.com)

"hero's light ray"

What are you debunking here, it is stated as light

Also reddit has been used as sources on several threads ive seen for translations and citations for things

Not everyone on reddit is a knowledgeable scientist, this is on the level of sourcing wikipedia