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Bleach God Tiers for real this time

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That's a terrible argument lol. Sk has been stabilizing the realms over a millennium. Stabilizing on a duration of that lvl is not possible thru limited reserves alone
 
For a big revision like this (even if it affects only a small amount of characters), more staff input would always be more valuable.
 
This thread is already 10 pages long.
We have enough input by now.
More isn’t bad but since this is only a few characters, it should be enough.
 
i think matt misunderstood the cosmology on the other thread he said "A realm (universe) made up of several smaller realms which have their own spacetimes is still 3-A"

when its 2 universes + many other realms that arent quantifiable inside the garganta
 
Alive90Achilles said:
Then you can "Man up" instead of whining like a child lol. Most of what you did was pushing baseless negatives
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Wanting to keep this thread with the little amount of sanity and stability it has left after this has gone on for 10 pages isnt whining, nor does it make my point wrong.

None of us here gives a shit about what verse is stronger than whom, this thread is about upgrading Bleach, not beating it's "rivals". And derailing with "Lol Bleach stomps harder" will do nothing but ask for more shitfests than whats already happened here.

Leave. It. Out.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Summary of what's currently being discussed:

The Garganta
  • Aura monologues that "[she's] prowling within the infinite Garganta" I break this translation down character by character within the google doc. My evidence for my translation being accurate is having taken multiple years of Japanese in college, being able to communicate with native speaking Japanese professors, having college certified textbooks, and strictly using .org or .edu sites when stumbling across words I don't know/aren't in my textbooks.
    • Debunk 1: Google translate says "infinitely expanding Garganta". In the world of academia (where I'm from) using google translate is a big no no in language classes, according to native speaking professors I've talked to it often leads to too many inaccuracies. Idk if google translate is acceptable here, but in my realms of work and study it is not. Most I've talked to seem to agree here too.
    • Debunk 2: Why not wait for the officials with VIZ? I bought the third volume with the specific intent of translating it early (being that I know Japanese). VIZ can be wrong too but that's not why I bought the book to translate it early. I believe I've thoroughly supported my translation being accurate, so I want to discuss this stuff now. If it turns out down the line a better translation contradicts mine, then a new thread that downgrades the verse can be made.
  • Isshin and the Spirits Are Forever With You novel confirm that the time and space of the Garganta is separate from the realms. This implies that the Garganta is its own space-time.
    • Debunk 1: Space-time =/= universal in size. Correct, I agree. The Garganta being a space-time is just a separate point. I bring it up because to be considered a Low 2-C structure you must be a certain size and be a space-time.
  • According to VSBW standards being described as infinite or using similar synonyms classifies something to be of at least universal in size. So, regardless of if the Garganta is actually infinite or not, the fact that Aura describes it as such is enough to say the Garganta is universal in size.
    • Debunk 1: Aura is being hyperbolic. This is false for the following reasons. Aura is giving us an expository monologue, it's practically the author giving us information directly. Aura isn't talking to anyone but the reader, and there is no reason to assume the author is lying unless the author indicates that what he writes are lies. Second, the Garganta is just one big void that encompasses everything within the Bleach cosmos. While that doesn't inherently mean anything at all, it means that it being that large is no contradiction. My point being there's nothing to make us weary that it can be that size.
  • Conclusion: Due to Aura's statement and Isshin/SAFWY descriptions, the Garganta is at least a universal sized space-time, which by VSBW definition is a Low 2-C structure. This is something that the majority has either silently acquiesced on or voiced their agreement. The only disagreement I've still seen is from Matt regarding the validity of my translation. I can't force him to believe that I translate without a hidden agenda but I hope my above "Japanese resume" helps provide some credibility that I am more accurate than google translate.

The 3 Realms of Existence
  • Hueco Mundo is shown to contain a moon orbiting the planet and has a statement of containing an "endless amount of sand". So Hueco Mundo as a realm is just unquantifiably larger than a planet + moon.
    • Debunk 1: Endless =/= infinite realm. I agree, I never argued Hueco Mundo is infinite. Personally, I believe Hueco Mundo is just planet + moon in size.
  • Kon mentions a "distant galaxy" in an end chapter sketch, indicating the existence of galaxies within the World of the Living.
    • Debunk 1: End of chapter sketches don't mean anything. I disagree as Kubo uses end of chapter sketches to add context and tell his story in more subtle ways. Oftentimes his sketches directly relate to what's happening in the manga: Gin depicted as a snake next to Aizen, Uryu saving the Arrancar girl, Ichigo's badge breaking when White takes over, etc.
    • Debunk 2: Doesn't this mean Kon kicked the pebble all the way to the galaxy? Hell no, all it means is that Kon is aware of distant galaxies existing within the realm of the WotL.
  • Gremmy imagines a small galaxy. Similar to Kon, Gremmy being able to imagine galaxies implies he too knows or has seen galaxies.
    • Debunk 1: Containing galaxies =/= universal size. Correct in a vacuum, but this isn't the only evidence towards the WotL being the same size as our IRL universe. Also, I can't seem to find the page, but I created a Q&A a long time ago called "Qualifications for Tier 2" and was given the answer that to be Low 2-C you need to be of multi-galaxy size and be a space-time. I wish I could link it but after an hour of searching I just couldn't find it on either of the two sites, so if you don't want to accept this point I understand.
  • Kubo has demonstrated that the WotL is a parallel to the IRL world (Ewan McGregor exists, London exists, etc) which is one of the bullet points that make a dimension acceptably universal in size according to VSBW standards.
    • Debunk 1: How can the WotL be a universe if the realms fit are only part of the Bleach universe? The Bleach universe and the old universe that existed before the Soul King created the current universe aren't inherently the size of a 3-A universe. The Garganta can be larger than our IRL universe and the realms can be the size of our IRL universe. Being that the Garganta has a statement for infinite size, even if the realms were infinite (I'm not claiming such, I only think WotL and SS are 3-A in size), infinite can fit in infinite. So the realms being a whole universe in size does not contradict anything.
  • Soul Society is the mirror world to World of the Living, and according to universal size standards on VSBW this alone is enough to say the Soul Society is on par in size with the World of the Living.
    • Debunk 1: Is it enough tho? According to the site yes. However, I'll give you more information anyway. We know the SS has starry skies and it is very possible that Gremmy witnessed the galaxy within SS since he's been living in the shadows of SS. So disregarding SS being parallel to the WotL it contains countless stars as well as potentially galaxies.
  • Isshin states the WotL and SS are cut off from time and space from each other. This would make the realms their own time-space.
    • Debunk 1: Time-space =/= universal size. I agree, but what it does mean is that if the realms are universal in size AND are their own time-spaces would make them Low 2-C structures.
  • Conclusion: Due to VSBW standards for classifying spaces as universal in size and what Kubo has shown us satisfying said standards, the WotL and SS are Low 2-C structures. Personally, the fact that they satisfy (as Tempest pointed out) 4/6 bullet points for being universal in size, coupled with the fact that the wiki only demands 1 bullet be satisfied, there should be no question that the realms are universal time-spaces.

Confusion with 3-A to 2-C
  • Being universal in size and not being a confirmed time-space is 3-A.
  • Being infinite in size and not being a confirmed time-space is High 3-A.
  • Being universal in size and a confirmed time-space is Low 2-C.
  • Being multiple universal sized time-spaces separated by a separate time-space is 2-C.

Confusion with the "At least Low 2-C, possibly/likely 2-C"
  • At least Low 2-C, comes from the Garganta being a universal-infinite sized time-space by itself.
  • 2-C, comes from destroying 3 Low 2-C structures separated by different space-times (as I am arguing that WotL, SS, and Garganta are all Low 2-C structures).
Click to expand...
here is a summary
 
Alright so we need more staff members. Lets get this over with since again everyone is just repeating themselves

For now which staff agrees/disagrees/neutral?
 
Warren_Valion said:
Please note, I will not argue with anyone on this thread at all, and after I make this comment, I will unfollow it as I do not care for the shit storm that I know will occur on this thread because god forbid that this weeb verse from a medium/anime someone doesn't like is this strong. These are just going to be my thoughts on what is presented.

As I have mentioned when you showed me this a few months ago, not the biggest fan of you using Buddist concepts that inspired Bleach's cosmology as a measure to tier anything.

But on that topic, I find the whole portion of Mugen/Muken's size completely superfluous.

The World of the Living is OUR universe - shares our geography, our countries, language, other planets in our solar system, etc. There are is also far more than just a planet as shown with planets, countless stars, and even galaxies being shown in space. Having a fictional city doesn't change that it's supposed to be our universe. To conclude that the universe just stops at an unknown point in space for no logical reason takes more leaps of faith and is less logical than just assuming that it's should be the same size as our universe, when that is clearly what the world is.

Occam's Razor should take precedent here, I believe.


On this topic, I would like to address the notion that you need to prove the exact dimensions of a universe for creation feats to be 3-A/Low 2-C and beyond, and how I find it to be a massive double standard that isn't applied on any verse, like at all, ever.

Where in Bruce/Even Almighty did they ever mention the exact dimensions of the universe? How about the universes of the Arrowverse, which is a universe that also has made up cities as well - the dimensions of these universes aren't ever mentioned, from what I remember and could search up, in the hours of terribly inconsistent levels of quality writing that is the Arrowverse.

These are just two from like a million examples. Almost no verse explicitly states that their universe is 93 Billion light-years in diameter, so by following that logic, why are there so many 3-A and Tier 2 characters?

It is because, unless the verse explicitly describes a universal creation feat from a world's deity as something that is smaller or larger than our universe, then it is assumed to be our universe's size. This is how every creation feat is handled, and not applying this to Bleach is a double standard.

This does not apply to pocket dimension feats, however, as they are different for many reasons, all of which I will not go into here as that would be derailing as it is unrelated to this thread's topic.


Back on to Bleach's cosmology, all three realms of existence are different (And parallel according to numerous sources) space-times connected by different space-times and both described and drawn as such, they are also surrounded by an infinite void of Reshi that is the Garganta (Garganta is described as infinite in multiple different sources IIRC, but even if it's not, its size doesn't matter).

At the very least, Bleach's cosmology is one large space-time that contains at least three universal sized realms, and would be Low 2-C. Or it would be 3 separate space-times of universal size, and would be 2-C. The second seems more likely to me due to things like the Dangai and Garganta's existence. But having At least Low 2-C, likely/possibly 2-C, and taking in both interpretations is fine for me.

I feel that you completely and utterly explained very clearly why the characters should scale to the cosmology and so I have nothing to add there.

However, I do agree that Mimihagi's feat is likely more hax-based than tier-based, thanks to the concept of Stagnation that it embodies. It also feels exceptionally weird to have one arm of the Soul King be soooo much stronger than the other, although I know that's not a legitimate argument. I just think that scaling Mimihagi should definitely be debated, likely for another thread in the future.


Well, that's all I have to say. Great work, it was a pleasant read, as I am sure this thread won't be.

Good luck, and good day.
Click to expand...
yea he agreed with low 2C at least
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
I mean there's space-time in the DB Universe where physical world and afterlife are separate with space-time but it is just 3-A there.
Click to expand...
They're not separate space times

I agree with these being separate space times though, enough evidence is shown
 
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