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Bleach Downgrades (Staff Only)

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Not open for further replies.
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
You mean a thread that already has like 5-6 people already to go against the downgrades?

Yes. Because he's not needed.
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Yes, a knowledgeable member is not needed on a massive revision on the verse he knows about best than some, kinda gives a bad look saying that a knowledgeable memeber of the verse is not allowed to talk

But since sigurd is fine not commenting I will leave it at that
 
@00potato; if you post here again I'm going to have to recommend you be temporarily banned for a short period of time. You've had enough warnings.
 
Dont nitpick and argue semantics guys. He still supports the verse ending up as tier 3 on some level. The downgrade is opposed to anything tier 3 or 2. At the worst, you lose another person and you'd still have more people to go against the opposition.

And Sigurd said hes fine with not commenting here anyways. Get his points and post them here in your counter arguments.
 
Im not repeating myself again. Either way, you have more to argue here for the upgrade than the people against it do. And you can just add whatever points he has in your arguments here.

Enough with the nitpicking and leave it at that.
 
@Arc7Kuroi

We don't need more people on both sides, not that many people are actually debating in favor of the downgrades, it's a few people, everyone else will just be giving their opinions based on what's being said, I for one have no intention to actually debate, I will only give my opinion when both sides have given plenty of arguments and had a good back and forth, then I will look over everything and give my opinion on which side I agree with
 
I agree with the downgrades and congratulate the work done here. The stabilization feats page should also point out how if one of those feats is established to be done "via non AP based means a character has going for" while simultaneously being established to be done "via things like power a character has going for", then it might be that the latter needs to be recontextualized due to the former, making both ideas make sense as it's still the character's "power" that does that, just not related to how hard they can hit others to the face.
 
I dont think I have said my side And since I dont think I said it before I will say it now:

Disagree with the downgrade made by faulty logic and old debunked arguments
 
"Old debunked arguments" means nothing here when those arguments are now using new stuff, so that tactic is to be left ot.

That said, once again, we're waiting for IMade tp say his piece and then counter arguments will be formulated.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Destroying the 3 Realms of Existence (this is what I argue)
  • I'm going to start by debunking points AKM made.
  • "Evidence suggests Reio stabilizes the worlds via stabilizing just the universal flow of souls, not the worlds in the Cosmology themselves."
    • Allow me to steelman the argument that SK is only stabilizing the flow of souls. Ganryu states that there are an infinite amount of souls, this is supported by Hell being multi-universal in size, further supported by the flow being universal, and even further supported by the Garganta being infinite (so it can house infinite souls). Stabilizing infinite souls (as souls possess non-zero energy) would be a High 3-A stability feat.
  • "However, I argue that this is just being taken out of context. Because Yhwach also specifies in this comment that "massive numbers of Konpaku pass through" the soul society that Reio stabilizes. Why would the flow of souls be mentioned if it wasn't at all a factor in keeping the soul society in check?"
    • You're now assuming that the mechanism that stabilizes the worlds is the flow of souls and not the other way around. We are told the Soul King stabilizes the Soul Society. He can stabilize the flow of souls too, but he is without a doubt stabilizing the entire Soul Society as per the scan you provided. I'll go into the size of the Soul Society later.
  • "The Soul King is never said to stabilize the worlds here. Instead, its outright said that the Soul King controls the universal flow of souls"
    • As per the scan you provided with Yhwach this means that the Soul King stabilizes Soul Society and controls the universal flow. And again Ganryu states there are an infinite amount of souls.
  • "You are still wrong, Reio does not sustain the flow of souls, he sustains the worlds"
    • He does both, it's not one or the other, it's both. You've provided scans saying such.
  • "The Soul King sustaining the world's is only ever said to be the case when he is a lynchpin for the world, which would imply that his role as a lynchpin specifically is a special competent for doing it, not his power."
    • Here we find out that the whatever the Soul King is at the time uses spiritual power (Reiryoku) to stabilize whatever it stabilizes. This means that yes the Soul King does use his power to stabilize the Soul Society and Universal flow of souls. This correlates to the Reio for this reason, they mention that because Yhwach had the Reio's power he was able to stabilize the worlds. <- This is the precise evidence needed for stability using power, it's stated that spiritual power is used.
  • "The destruction of the worlds brought forth by the Soul Kings death isn’t instant or immediate in any way, shape or form. The best we see and get from the crumbling of the worlds is a dimensional quake trembling through the worlds, and not all of the worlds are even effected the same way."
    • I'll go into the size of SS and whatnot later to prove that overtime doesn't matter as destroying a 4D space in a finite time is still above destroying an infinite space instantly. However, the claim made by AKM was that stabilizing the entire cosmos isn't means for it, to that I say Aura says the Garganta is infinite thus, regardless of the time it's a High 3-A feat.
  • "With the Soul Kings passive feat being invalid and unquantifiable now, Yhwach absorbing him, Mimihagi and Ichigos power's to get a strength buff from them is logistically impossibleto give him power to be 3-A or Low 2-C, which puts into question his capability of destroying the worlds without a shadow of a doubt."
    • If I steelman and say the stability feat is invalid, it doesn't matter. Yhwach still scales off of this. It doesn't matter if you can't quantify the WSK, that by no means disqualifies the various statements. All it does is call into question if the WSK is unquantifiable.
  • "Ganju's not a credible source"
    • As a member of one of the Noble Houses that partook in the original formation and outcome that resulted from forming the Bleach universe, Ganju or any Shiba for that matter would be one of the MOST credible sources to comment on the collapse of the Bleach universe. You claim we shouldn't take his word because power-wise he is fodder... last I checked a character's power level did not determine their credibility. Ganju is giving exposition as well, as in it is what the author wants to convey.
  • "Ganju was not yet made awareof Yhwach's plans to return the Bleach cosmos back into the original universe."
    • Correct he just knew the Soul King's existence was put in danger. And being the Shiba clan member he is, filled with arguably more knowledge on the Soul King aside from the Tsunayashiro clan and Ichibe, still said the Garganta would be destroyed. Implying if anything that the Soul King is stabilizing everything as per the implications of Yhwach's statement. Yhwach also didn't want to revert the universe back, he wanted to destroy and merge everything to create a new universe.
  • "The Silver Arrow"
    • Jugram says Uryu's Antithesis may be the only thing capable of countering Yhwach. Ryuken tells us that Stil Silver is Quincy kryptonite. The notion of that arrow scaling to Uryu's AP is beyond disingenous. We are told that Uryu has the hax to counter Yhwach and then he pierces Yhwach with a special arrow that had the sole purpose of negging all of Yhwach's power. This isn't something that scales to Uryu's stats.
  • "Yhwach doesn't stabilize the worlds"
  • "there needs to be actual evidence that Yhwach was actually CAPABLE of doing the feat in the first place"
    • Multiple statements and the dimensional quakes. Plus the stability feat isn't invalid like you claim it is.
  • "Almighty is hax only"
Quantifying destroying the 3 realms (you can peep my google doc on the old thread for additional info, this is what I argue)
  • We know from Askin that Yhwach was going to destroy Hueco Mundo, Soul Society, and World of the Living.
  • We know that the three realms aren't planets and to argue such is direct admission that the Dangai is a literal pipeline, like in Dakota lol. "If they could be likened" means they cannot be liked to planets as per the if.
  • Here from CFYOW II we see the theory of general relativity is canon to the Bleach universe. Meaning that is it hypothesizes, space and time are linked in a space-time. With my google doc from the og CRT we already had evidence that the Bleach realms were space-times, but this is new and further evidence for it. Also from CFYOW II, Giriko (having bounded with the god of time) claims that time is infinite, which going by general relativity would imply that the WotL (SS is parallel to WotL) is an infinite space-time. What Giriko is telling us is that the WotL is merely an exact replica of our irl universe (which most already assumed or knew). See here for more: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cu8ywQwSxvcd9228Mpruf3OPkRbLrn4lxSX0MLYRSkg/edit?usp=sharing
  • So we know that WotL and by extension SS are at least universal space-times (as the use of infinite qualifies for universal size as per vsbw standards). We also know (see the doc for scans) that the SS and WotL are separate space-times. Destroying two universal space-times separated by a separate space-time is the definition of 2-C.
  • Aura calls the Garganta infinite (check the doc) and Ganryu as I've shown above said there are infinite souls. Even if you want to say they aren't infinite for whatever reasons, the use of infinite is grounds for universal size by VSBW standards. Those infinite souls occupying space in the Garganta. So Garganta is called infinite in size and can contain infinite souls. Two infinite statements for Garganta, it's destruction regardless of the time frame is High 3-A. However, the Garganta is a confirmed space-time as well making its destruction a Low 2-C feat even ignoring all the realm stuff.
  • To conclude Yhwach destroying the current Bleach universe and making a new one would be a Low 2-C to 2-C feat.
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Mine on Bleach

Warren_Valion said:
Introduction

I need to preface this, I have been working on this response for hours, and I will not continue to respond. I am so tired of arguing nonsense like this. There were reasons I left the wiki and I did not come back to constantly keep doing this. I am solely making this response both as the wish of a friend and from the sheer audacity of the claims being made, but this will be the only time.

First things first, I have to point this out, only allowing one or two non-staff members to participate is ludicrous when a majority of Bleach supporters aren’t staff. That is literally silencing the opposition.

Allow 3-5 knowledgeable Bleach regular members to participate. I nominate at least Purgy and AppleLord to join with Arc. Perhaps AnonymousBlank, IMade (If and when is able to appear), and Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye as well.


You all don’t seem to realize the nonsense that is a VS Battle Wiki CRT. When 5-15 guys are dogpiling you, it automatically a losing battle of attrition. A legitimate debate is only possible when there is a comparably equal amount of competent members arguing back and forth on a topic.

Otherwise, this just a ******* circlejerk.

Note: I have been writing this response for hours, so if any changes were made on this topic, I apologize for me being both incorrect and coming off as antagonistic, if I do.

Weakened Soul King/Reio (WSK) Stabilization feat

The main thing I want to mention is that this belief that the current rankings are solely based on the Soul King’s stability feat is ludicrous.

And while, I think a good case can be made to argue that the stabilization feat is legitimate, as it is described that it is via Reiatsu or owns power that the worlds are held up as stated by Jugram here about how without Reio, Yhwach’s power is the only thing that can keep the world standing up.

There are other quotes, I believe, that state the same thing - that the stabilization of the world is done via the person’s power or Reiatsu. But I don’t have the time, resources, or willpower to make the arguments or search for the scans.

For a reminder of the requirements:

Requirement 1: Specify what exactly is being stabilized so that it is made clear what the character's sustainability is doing precisely.

Requirement 2: Prove that the stabilized structure is being directly sustained by the power of the character and not from the character's abilities, life force, existence, magical properties or any unknown connection that is independent of their statistics.

Requirement 3: Prove that the character's stabilization is comparable to the scale of the structure they are stabilizing. Preferably, it should be proven that the character's sustainability is comparable to the destruction of the structure to best show that their power rivals the destructive output of what would destroy the structure in the first place. Please keep in mind that this may vary depending on how the structure's destruction would occur. For example, if a character sustains the existence of a universe that would not be instantly or immediately destroyed when no longer supported, the power of their sustainability would not be comparable to destructive output that completely and immediately destroys a universe, and would not be sufficient enough to be given a 3-A or Low 2-C rating. However, their sustainability could be given either rating if the universe they sustain would be completely destroyed instantly or immediately without support.

Requirement 4: Prove that the power of the character's stabilization consistently scales to their regular statistics, similar to our standards for creation feats.

The Weakened Soul King obtains these requirements by:

Requirement 1: Numerous mentions that all three realms are sustained by the Soul King

Requirement 2: It is mentioned that it is through Reiatsu or power that all three realms are being held up.

Requirement 3: Creation began falling apart as soon as the Soul King died, and nowhere was there any mention that there was any time to try and fix this problem, just the opposite, everyone was shouting that they were going to die. And the CFYOW novel says, the one you showed, that the world will “crumble immediately”. Not “START crumbling immediately”, but crumble immediately. This is a direct statement stating immediate destruction.

Requirement 4: Reiatsu is the pressure of their level of energy, and thus, scales to their strength.

I would argue that this is grounds alone for allowing the Weakened Soul King’s stabilization feat to be legitimate.

There are more scans, proof, and arguments on the matter, but as I said earlier, I am not the one who will force himself to find them, that task should be done by a more passionate and knowledgeable member like the ones I have named above.

At the very worst though, all this would do is make the WSK’s tier Unknown, but again, this character’s tiering doesn’t affect the stronger God Tiers of the verse because they scale to different feats.

Mimihagi Stuff

This Mimihagi argument seems to ignore one crucial aspect of Mimihagi’s existence, and that being that it governs stagnation on that which it touches (This is the reason why Mimihagi wouldn’t scale to the stabilization feat because he isn’t using physical power, but hax, instead).

The reasons why Jushiro was alive all these years? It’s because Mimihagi was within him, keeping his illness at bay.

Mimihagi leaving Jushiro means that Jushiro is giving up his life so that he can succumb to this illness to allow the Soul King to be stagnated instead.

By Utikate’s life, they are referring to Mimihagi, as that is how he describes himself, saying that his life is Mimihagi.

Touching the Soul King just means that, instead of being in a state of dying, Mimihagi is forcing him to be within a state of life and death, allowing reality to not crumble away. Allowing his energy to still hold up the world.

Let me explain, in Bleach, there is explicitly described to be a state between Life and Death. It is stated that the Weakened Soul King already exists like this, and it was stated that Yhwach’s existence was made like this as well, this is why and how Yhwach was used to stabilize the worlds even after being “killed” by Ichigo in their fight, if you were wondering that.

Mimihagi isn’t “temporarily becoming the lynchpin”, nothing states this or even implies it, and in fact, the opposite is implied.

Mimihagi is explicitly stated that he is alive, that he is “Ukitake’s life”. This goes in direct contrast to the state of existence that the WSK and Yhwach are in when they are the lynchpin. They exist in such a state of being that completely goes against the idea that a “lifeforce” is what is required to stabilize the worlds.

All that is said is that Mimihagi is stabilizing the worlds in the WSK’s place.

And from what we know about his existence and his powers, the most reasonable assumption to make is to say that he is using his stagnation powers to make it so that Reio doesn’t transition to being fully dead, but maintains that state between Life and Death that he has. In other words, he is simply maintaining the already existing lynchpin, not becoming the next one.


And case and point, after Yhwach absorbed the two of them, guess what didn’t happen? The world wasn’t destroyed. And it was directly stated to be via his power that he is doing this.

You might argue that this is done because he absorbed the Soul King, who was the lynchpin already, making him the lynchpin.

But if that is the case, then why would Yhwach, after he was defeated, be “made into the lynchpin” despite him already having absorbed the WSK and Mimihagi?

The implication is clear, being “made into the lynchpin” isn’t some special circumstance that is required that allows a person to maintain all the worlds. And it has nothing to do with Lifeforce.

What being “made into the lynchpin” means is having the person’s body be thrown into the crystal seal which keeps them locked in place, forcing them to do nothing and directing their power to be the thing to hold up the worlds.

Still Silver Stuff

Are you ******* serious?

Well for one, the Still Silver is a Deus Ex Machina, not Plot Induced Stupidity. It was very clearly explained to do a specific function and it does that function. The only way for this to be PIS is if you think that Uryu is physically scaled to any of the God tiers in Bleach.

Anyway, there is a reason as to why the Still Silver works if you go throughout the arc and pay attention to the crumbs that are left throughout it.

Uryu is explicitly stated, by Yhwach himself, to have “some kind of power” that is superior to Yhwach’s power. Note, this is not physical power, as shown when Uryu gets his ass destroyed by Jugram, Yhwach’s subordinate and inferior.

Still Silver is explicitly stated to nullify Yhwach’s powers momentarily.

Uryu’s Schrift, the Anti-thesis, was stated, by a user of the Almighty, to be the only viable counter to it.

And the arrow is piercing Yhwach from behind him and is pointing either leveled with Yhwach or even downwards (which would be an impossible angle from that difference in height), despite the fact that Uryu is in front of Yhwach, as shown when Yhwach looks down and the panel focus on him, Ichigo looking to his right side, showing the Uryu is next to him, and Ichigo is shown that he is facing the front of Yhwach (Zoom in to see the white of Yhwach’s clothes under his cape). Further proving that Uryu making that shot from his positioning, doesn’t make any sense at all if he was just shooting his bow, there is only one clear way for this to make sense.

With all this information, it is clear that Uryu used the Anti-thesis to send the arrow into Yhwach’s body (Which is hax, not AP), and that the Still Silver head’s nullifying powers are what didn’t allow Yhwach to retaliate as Jugram did, and what allowed Ichigo to kill him.

Ergo, this isn’t an anti-feat.


The Real Scaling

As I mentioned a long time ago in this post, the Stabilization stuff, while I feel an argument can be made for its legitimacy, is 100% irrelevant to the important feats that the God tiers scale too.

Those being the Creation and Destruction of Bleach’s cosmology.

First off, the Creation of almost everything from the Soul King is an explicit creation feat. The fact that this wasn’t brought up at all in this CRT is genuinely baffling. Again, if you want the scans of this, bring in the members that I suggested and they will do as such.

Second off, and more importantly, Yhwach’s destruction/creation feat/statement was briefly mentioned, but the arguments against it are absurd.

Your first point, about how it is “logically impossible” is 100% an Argument from Incredulity and nothing more.

Yhwach is already stronger than both Mimihagi and the WSK. He directly states this to Mimihagi’s face, and he was casually throwing around Ichigo in their brief fight, even tanking a few of his attacks, who was explicitly stated to have reobtained his transcendent power for the purpose of killing the Soul King. And even if you want to argue that Yhwach’s Reiatsu was what allowed Ichigo to do that, that makes it a more direct showing that Almighty Yhwach is > than WSK.

Please explain how absorbing people that he is already stronger than makes him logically incapable of performing a great feat? Absorbing the strength of those you are stronger than doesn’t make you weaker than them initially or dependent on them for a significant boost in power. This is like saying, since Yhwach absorbed Jugram and Gerad’s power, that means that he should scale to their level of strength, no, not everyone is Majin Buu - just because he is absorbing another's power, does not mean that is because they are stronger than he is.

This argument you are making doesn’t make any sense. There is nothing here that even remotely suggest a limit to Yhwach’s power that would make scaling Yhwach to his Tier 3/2 statements/feats inconsistent or “logically impossible”, the only thing here that would suggest that is your own lack of belief that Yhwach could be that strong, and that is a fallacy, not an argument.

Yhwach was explicitly stated to desire to create a world without the fear of Death which was stopped due to Ichigo killing him. Essentially he would reverse what the Soul King originally did; At first, he was going to do this by letting Ichigo kill the Soul King who was stabilizing the three worlds and everything connected to them, and then in the aftermath, create his own world. But instead, Yhwach decided to “take everything from” Reio, absorbing both him and Mimihagi, preferring to fuse the worlds together with his power instead, which was said that no one besides Yhwach had the power to do such a thing (Askin stating this shows that this was Yhwach’s plan all along and he didn’t make up this shit as he went along), and we even see him using his Reiatsu (Yes, that black energy is confirmed to be Yhwach’s Reiatsu) and begin to do just that before his power is nulled by the Still Silver in the very next page for a brief moment, which Yhwach then considers inconsequential as it is only a temporary buffer that was already vanishing by the time Ichigo reached him to cut him down.

Showing that yes, the “villain trope” is what is happening here exactly.

To argue that this character’s entire goal and motivation that were meticulously planned for a thousand years, and the thing he was doing before having his power nulled for a moment, which even he found a pointless victory, wasn’t going to actually happen despite everything in the series saying as such is pure unadulterated headcanon, and I cannot believe it is being argued otherwise.

Miscellaneous Stuff

Why would a character’s power level, or them being physically fodder, mean their statements are inaccurate?

Ganju is a Shiba, a member of one of the five clans that are descendants of the five people who helped the Soul King create the world. It is very possible that he knows a bit about the Soul King and the importance of his destruction.

What even is this point?

And whether he was referring to Reio or Yhwach is irrelevant, because Yhwach's goals are for everything that Reio built to be reversed, to create his own world where Death doesn't exist. Originally he was going to have Reio's death be the catalyst of everything's destruction, and then remake his own world out of that.

Obviously, when he decides to do it himself with his own power, he would still try and destroy the same stuff. Thinking otherwise makes no sense.

Yhwach wanted to destroy everything Reio created, which yes, includes the Dangai and Garganta.

Conclusion

To wrap this up, I heavily disagree with a lot of the claims being made here, I find a majority of them to be baseless and clearly indicative of a lack of proper understanding of the source material.

I highly disapprove, and I once again implore you to allow a handful of non-staff Bleach experts into this thread for discussion as they will provide the will, arguments, and scans that I do not possess.

Thank you and goodbye.


Do not call me back here.
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Warren's
 
Pro tip: how's about you don't act so stuck up and fail to provide any actual debunking instead of going "WAH THE STAFF MEMBERS ARE BIASED" for the 500th time, like the staff here is supposed to be some labyrinthine hivemind, and maybe we'd actually allow you on the thread itself. I'm going to leave this comment up for context, but if all you're gonna do is come in here and rage without doing anything to actually, legitimately and POLITELY debunk any of the claims the OP makes, then you are OUT.

And this serves for absolutely everyone after this message. I am as neutral a party as I can be, as I genuinely don't care what ends up happening, but I won't allow this thread to veer off the rails when it's a verse this big with this much influence. This is your first and last warning.
 
@LordGinSama Did you think to consider maybe the opposition may disagree with your interpretation and have their own interpretation they consider to be valid? Also you have added nothing constructive and this is primarily for staff only besides those that have been named, not to mention I remember you saying you decided to leave the wiki recently, so if you have nothing that is actually meaningful to the conversation, then respectfully leave the thread
 
I disagree with the downgrade. 1. The immediate/instantly are very subjective. I could i ran to the store immediately. That could either be seconds or minutes. And even his own scan it saids the effects are immediate
 
Reio35 said:
1. The immediate/instantly are very subjective. I could i ran to the store immediately. That could either be seconds or minutes. And even his own scan it saids the effects are immediate
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Just to counter this really quickly, its not subjective. Its outright shown to us that the destruction isnt immediate.

The post explains this in large detail.
 
TOAAPRESENCE1 said:
Not like as soon as he dies everything started to tremble and was going to collapse
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Read this entire thing again:
AKM sama said:

Reason 4: The Soul King Stabilizing The Cosmology Isn't 3-A or Low 2-C​

Outlined in our new standards for stabilization feats, one of the requirements is to prove that a character's stabilization is equal to the destructive output released by the structure's destruction. So if for example, for stabilization to be 3-A or Low 2-C, the character's sustenance would need to be able to rival the destructive output of a universe being completely destroyed instantly, or immediately. And that's not the case here for Bleach.

The destruction of the worlds brought forth by the Soul Kings death isn’t instant or immediate in any way, shape or form. The best we see and get from the crumbling of the worlds is a dimensional quake trembling through the worlds, and not all of the worlds are even effected the same way. The Soul society violently shakes, Hueco Mundo shakes to a lesser extent, and the world of the living gets a mild long lasting quake where nothing gets destroyed at all.

image3.jpg


0616-002.png


Counter-argument: "Multiple characters make a point of saying without the Soul King the entire bleach universe would cease to be."

I keep seeing this get passed around, so I'm addressing it here. We seem to be at the point where claims of "the universe will cease to exist!" or anything similar as an end result of what happens is automatically enough to keep 3-A or Low 2-C ratings on the table. It isn't.

We know that "the universe would cease to be" is a thing as the end result of the Soul King no longer being alive to keep that from happening. But that being the conclusion doesn't at all matter here when looking at just how the destruction unfolds. The result of what happens in the end is completely irrelevant against the fact that the destruction itself isn't instant or immediate destruction. The destruction starts instantly / immediately, but it doesn't happen instantly / immediately, as you can see above. The destruction spans over an extensively long timeframe, to the point where nothing dimensionally even begins to deteriorate. And as mentioned, the destruction isn't even treated the same across all of the effected worlds.

The destruction happening here isn't 3-A destruction, let alone Low 2-C levels of it. So the Soul King wouldn't need output on either levels to stop the worlds from crumbling, even if he stabilizes the cosmology with power and not an alternate method. Now to get to the 2nd issue with this upgrade.
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You guys need to do far more than just say small points to debunk this feat not being immediate like you claim.
 
LordGinSama said:
Huh like a broken record lol, and quite frankly I don't care if I wasn't invited or not if I wish to comment on the thread I will proceed to do so, I've been a supporter for years so I'll comment and give input on a verse that I'm very experienced in.
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You being a supporter for this verse or not means absolutely nothing here Gin, and you've been here long enough to know this. You werent given permission to speak here, and you arent even supposed to be on the site, or did you not decide to leave?

Give your points to the people who WERE allowed to speak and give counter arguments here, or kindly keep out.
 
1. Soul king dies and the city begins to collapse on another panel u literaly see the planet breaking

2. Mimihagi goes up and stops it

3. YH has an exchange with mimihagi

4. YH takes mimihagi and everything starts to collapse again

5. YH starts absorbing soul king and everything stabilizes
 
"You yourself along with several other users haven't given anything past "I agree with the OP""

I flat out said I haven't agreed with either side yet, just that the OP appeared to be solid

"What matters is the matter of principle and hard facts"

Hard facts? Bruh this is fictional story that we all have different interpretations on, there are little to no "Hard Facts"

"Huh like a broken record lol, and quite frankly I don't care if I wasn't invited or not if I wish to comment on the thread I will proceed to do so, I've been a supporter for years so I'll comment and give input on a verse that I'm very experienced in."

I mean fine, if you want to just be rude and ignore the rules because you're angry, then you have to accept what happens as a result of that
 
TOAAPRESENCE1 said:
1. Soul king dies and the city begins to collapse on another panel u literaly see the planet breaking
Click to expand...
Not immediate destruction. It STARTS to collaspe, which isnt the same thing.
TOAAPRESENCE1 said:
2. Mimihagi goes up and stops it
Click to expand...
TOAAPRESENCE1 said:
3. YH has an exchange with mimihagi

4. YH takes mimihagi and everything starts to collapse again

5. YH starts absorbing soul king and everything stabilizes
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The rest of these points dont matter in the slightest because of the above. And the OP pointed these out and discussed them anyway.

You need to acknowledge what complete and immediate destruction is.
 
What happened to waiting for Imade to make his post so we can tackle the rebuttals in waves? Because Warren and I address a lot of what's in the OP but haven't been responded to yet because we waiting, I'm gonna bump them again and hope we wait for real this time lol.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Destroying the 3 Realms of Existence (this is what I argue)
  • I'm going to start by debunking points AKM made.
  • "Evidence suggests Reio stabilizes the worlds via stabilizing just the universal flow of souls, not the worlds in the Cosmology themselves."
    • Allow me to steelman the argument that SK is only stabilizing the flow of souls. Ganryu states that there are an infinite amount of souls, this is supported by Hell being multi-universal in size, further supported by the flow being universal, and even further supported by the Garganta being infinite (so it can house infinite souls). Stabilizing infinite souls (as souls possess non-zero energy) would be a High 3-A stability feat.
  • "However, I argue that this is just being taken out of context. Because Yhwach also specifies in this comment that "massive numbers of Konpaku pass through" the soul society that Reio stabilizes. Why would the flow of souls be mentioned if it wasn't at all a factor in keeping the soul society in check?"
    • You're now assuming that the mechanism that stabilizes the worlds is the flow of souls and not the other way around. We are told the Soul King stabilizes the Soul Society. He can stabilize the flow of souls too, but he is without a doubt stabilizing the entire Soul Society as per the scan you provided. I'll go into the size of the Soul Society later.
  • "The Soul King is never said to stabilize the worlds here. Instead, its outright said that the Soul King controls the universal flow of souls"
    • As per the scan you provided with Yhwach this means that the Soul King stabilizes Soul Society and controls the universal flow. And again Ganryu states there are an infinite amount of souls.
  • "You are still wrong, Reio does not sustain the flow of souls, he sustains the worlds"
    • He does both, it's not one or the other, it's both. You've provided scans saying such.
  • "The Soul King sustaining the world's is only ever said to be the case when he is a lynchpin for the world, which would imply that his role as a lynchpin specifically is a special competent for doing it, not his power."
    • Here we find out that the whatever the Soul King is at the time uses spiritual power (Reiryoku) to stabilize whatever it stabilizes. This means that yes the Soul King does use his power to stabilize the Soul Society and Universal flow of souls. This correlates to the Reio for this reason, they mention that because Yhwach had the Reio's power he was able to stabilize the worlds. <- This is the precise evidence needed for stability using power, it's stated that spiritual power is used.
  • "The destruction of the worlds brought forth by the Soul Kings death isn’t instant or immediate in any way, shape or form. The best we see and get from the crumbling of the worlds is a dimensional quake trembling through the worlds, and not all of the worlds are even effected the same way."
    • I'll go into the size of SS and whatnot later to prove that overtime doesn't matter as destroying a 4D space in a finite time is still above destroying an infinite space instantly. However, the claim made by AKM was that stabilizing the entire cosmos isn't means for it, to that I say Aura says the Garganta is infinite thus, regardless of the time it's a High 3-A feat.
  • "With the Soul Kings passive feat being invalid and unquantifiable now, Yhwach absorbing him, Mimihagi and Ichigos power's to get a strength buff from them is logistically impossibleto give him power to be 3-A or Low 2-C, which puts into question his capability of destroying the worlds without a shadow of a doubt."
    • If I steelman and say the stability feat is invalid, it doesn't matter. Yhwach still scales off of this. It doesn't matter if you can't quantify the WSK, that by no means disqualifies the various statements. All it does is call into question if the WSK is unquantifiable.
  • "Ganju's not a credible source"
    • As a member of one of the Noble Houses that partook in the original formation and outcome that resulted from forming the Bleach universe, Ganju or any Shiba for that matter would be one of the MOST credible sources to comment on the collapse of the Bleach universe. You claim we shouldn't take his word because power-wise he is fodder... last I checked a character's power level did not determine their credibility. Ganju is giving exposition as well, as in it is what the author wants to convey.
  • "Ganju was not yet made awareof Yhwach's plans to return the Bleach cosmos back into the original universe."
    • Correct he just knew the Soul King's existence was put in danger. And being the Shiba clan member he is, filled with arguably more knowledge on the Soul King aside from the Tsunayashiro clan and Ichibe, still said the Garganta would be destroyed. Implying if anything that the Soul King is stabilizing everything as per the implications of Yhwach's statement. Yhwach also didn't want to revert the universe back, he wanted to destroy and merge everything to create a new universe.
  • "The Silver Arrow"
    • Jugram says Uryu's Antithesis may be the only thing capable of countering Yhwach. Ryuken tells us that Stil Silver is Quincy kryptonite. The notion of that arrow scaling to Uryu's AP is beyond disingenous. We are told that Uryu has the hax to counter Yhwach and then he pierces Yhwach with a special arrow that had the sole purpose of negging all of Yhwach's power. This isn't something that scales to Uryu's stats.
  • "Yhwach doesn't stabilize the worlds"
  • "there needs to be actual evidence that Yhwach was actually CAPABLE of doing the feat in the first place"
    • Multiple statements and the dimensional quakes. Plus the stability feat isn't invalid like you claim it is.
  • "Almighty is hax only"
Quantifying destroying the 3 realms (you can peep my google doc on the old thread for additional info, this is what I argue)
  • We know from Askin that Yhwach was going to destroy Hueco Mundo, Soul Society, and World of the Living.
  • We know that the three realms aren't planets and to argue such is direct admission that the Dangai is a literal pipeline, like in Dakota lol. "If they could be likened" means they cannot be liked to planets as per the if.
  • Here from CFYOW II we see the theory of general relativity is canon to the Bleach universe. Meaning that is it hypothesizes, space and time are linked in a space-time. With my google doc from the og CRT we already had evidence that the Bleach realms were space-times, but this is new and further evidence for it. Also from CFYOW II, Giriko (having bounded with the god of time) claims that time is infinite, which going by general relativity would imply that the WotL (SS is parallel to WotL) is an infinite space-time. What Giriko is telling us is that the WotL is merely an exact replica of our irl universe (which most already assumed or knew). See here for more: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cu8ywQwSxvcd9228Mpruf3OPkRbLrn4lxSX0MLYRSkg/edit?usp=sharing
  • So we know that WotL and by extension SS are at least universal space-times (as the use of infinite qualifies for universal size as per vsbw standards). We also know (see the doc for scans) that the SS and WotL are separate space-times. Destroying two universal space-times separated by a separate space-time is the definition of 2-C.
  • Aura calls the Garganta infinite (check the doc) and Ganryu as I've shown above said there are infinite souls. Even if you want to say they aren't infinite for whatever reasons, the use of infinite is grounds for universal size by VSBW standards. Those infinite souls occupying space in the Garganta. So Garganta is called infinite in size and can contain infinite souls. Two infinite statements for Garganta, it's destruction regardless of the time frame is High 3-A. However, the Garganta is a confirmed space-time as well making its destruction a Low 2-C feat even ignoring all the realm stuff.
  • To conclude Yhwach destroying the current Bleach universe and making a new one would be a Low 2-C to 2-C feat.
Click to expand...
Warren_Valion said:
Introduction

I need to preface this, I have been working on this response for hours, and I will not continue to respond. I am so tired of arguing nonsense like this. There were reasons I left the wiki and I did not come back to constantly keep doing this. I am solely making this response both as the wish of a friend and from the sheer audacity of the claims being made, but this will be the only time.

First things first, I have to point this out, only allowing one or two non-staff members to participate is ludicrous when a majority of Bleach supporters aren’t staff. That is literally silencing the opposition.

Allow 3-5 knowledgeable Bleach regular members to participate. I nominate at least Purgy and AppleLord to join with Arc. Perhaps AnonymousBlank, IMade (If and when is able to appear), and Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye as well.


You all don’t seem to realize the nonsense that is a VS Battle Wiki CRT. When 5-15 guys are dogpiling you, it automatically a losing battle of attrition. A legitimate debate is only possible when there is a comparably equal amount of competent members arguing back and forth on a topic.

Otherwise, this just a ******* circlejerk.

Note: I have been writing this response for hours, so if any changes were made on this topic, I apologize for me being both incorrect and coming off as antagonistic, if I do.

Weakened Soul King/Reio (WSK) Stabilization feat

The main thing I want to mention is that this belief that the current rankings are solely based on the Soul King’s stability feat is ludicrous.

And while, I think a good case can be made to argue that the stabilization feat is legitimate, as it is described that it is via Reiatsu or owns power that the worlds are held up as stated by Jugram here about how without Reio, Yhwach’s power is the only thing that can keep the world standing up.

There are other quotes, I believe, that state the same thing - that the stabilization of the world is done via the person’s power or Reiatsu. But I don’t have the time, resources, or willpower to make the arguments or search for the scans.

For a reminder of the requirements:

Requirement 1: Specify what exactly is being stabilized so that it is made clear what the character's sustainability is doing precisely.

Requirement 2: Prove that the stabilized structure is being directly sustained by the power of the character and not from the character's abilities, life force, existence, magical properties or any unknown connection that is independent of their statistics.

Requirement 3: Prove that the character's stabilization is comparable to the scale of the structure they are stabilizing. Preferably, it should be proven that the character's sustainability is comparable to the destruction of the structure to best show that their power rivals the destructive output of what would destroy the structure in the first place. Please keep in mind that this may vary depending on how the structure's destruction would occur. For example, if a character sustains the existence of a universe that would not be instantly or immediately destroyed when no longer supported, the power of their sustainability would not be comparable to destructive output that completely and immediately destroys a universe, and would not be sufficient enough to be given a 3-A or Low 2-C rating. However, their sustainability could be given either rating if the universe they sustain would be completely destroyed instantly or immediately without support.

Requirement 4: Prove that the power of the character's stabilization consistently scales to their regular statistics, similar to our standards for creation feats.

The Weakened Soul King obtains these requirements by:

Requirement 1: Numerous mentions that all three realms are sustained by the Soul King

Requirement 2: It is mentioned that it is through Reiatsu or power that all three realms are being held up.

Requirement 3: Creation began falling apart as soon as the Soul King died, and nowhere was there any mention that there was any time to try and fix this problem, just the opposite, everyone was shouting that they were going to die. And the CFYOW novel says, the one you showed, that the world will “crumble immediately”. Not “START crumbling immediately”, but crumble immediately. This is a direct statement stating immediate destruction.

Requirement 4: Reiatsu is the pressure of their level of energy, and thus, scales to their strength.

I would argue that this is grounds alone for allowing the Weakened Soul King’s stabilization feat to be legitimate.

There are more scans, proof, and arguments on the matter, but as I said earlier, I am not the one who will force himself to find them, that task should be done by a more passionate and knowledgeable member like the ones I have named above.

At the very worst though, all this would do is make the WSK’s tier Unknown, but again, this character’s tiering doesn’t affect the stronger God Tiers of the verse because they scale to different feats.

Mimihagi Stuff

This Mimihagi argument seems to ignore one crucial aspect of Mimihagi’s existence, and that being that it governs stagnation on that which it touches (This is the reason why Mimihagi wouldn’t scale to the stabilization feat because he isn’t using physical power, but hax, instead).

The reasons why Jushiro was alive all these years? It’s because Mimihagi was within him, keeping his illness at bay.

Mimihagi leaving Jushiro means that Jushiro is giving up his life so that he can succumb to this illness to allow the Soul King to be stagnated instead.

By Utikate’s life, they are referring to Mimihagi, as that is how he describes himself, saying that his life is Mimihagi.

Touching the Soul King just means that, instead of being in a state of dying, Mimihagi is forcing him to be within a state of life and death, allowing reality to not crumble away. Allowing his energy to still hold up the world.

Let me explain, in Bleach, there is explicitly described to be a state between Life and Death. It is stated that the Weakened Soul King already exists like this, and it was stated that Yhwach’s existence was made like this as well, this is why and how Yhwach was used to stabilize the worlds even after being “killed” by Ichigo in their fight, if you were wondering that.

Mimihagi isn’t “temporarily becoming the lynchpin”, nothing states this or even implies it, and in fact, the opposite is implied.

Mimihagi is explicitly stated that he is alive, that he is “Ukitake’s life”. This goes in direct contrast to the state of existence that the WSK and Yhwach are in when they are the lynchpin. They exist in such a state of being that completely goes against the idea that a “lifeforce” is what is required to stabilize the worlds.

All that is said is that Mimihagi is stabilizing the worlds in the WSK’s place.

And from what we know about his existence and his powers, the most reasonable assumption to make is to say that he is using his stagnation powers to make it so that Reio doesn’t transition to being fully dead, but maintains that state between Life and Death that he has. In other words, he is simply maintaining the already existing lynchpin, not becoming the next one.


And case and point, after Yhwach absorbed the two of them, guess what didn’t happen? The world wasn’t destroyed. And it was directly stated to be via his power that he is doing this.

You might argue that this is done because he absorbed the Soul King, who was the lynchpin already, making him the lynchpin.

But if that is the case, then why would Yhwach, after he was defeated, be “made into the lynchpin” despite him already having absorbed the WSK and Mimihagi?

The implication is clear, being “made into the lynchpin” isn’t some special circumstance that is required that allows a person to maintain all the worlds. And it has nothing to do with Lifeforce.

What being “made into the lynchpin” means is having the person’s body be thrown into the crystal seal which keeps them locked in place, forcing them to do nothing and directing their power to be the thing to hold up the worlds.

Still Silver Stuff

Are you ******* serious?

Well for one, the Still Silver is a Deus Ex Machina, not Plot Induced Stupidity. It was very clearly explained to do a specific function and it does that function. The only way for this to be PIS is if you think that Uryu is physically scaled to any of the God tiers in Bleach.

Anyway, there is a reason as to why the Still Silver works if you go throughout the arc and pay attention to the crumbs that are left throughout it.

Uryu is explicitly stated, by Yhwach himself, to have “some kind of power” that is superior to Yhwach’s power. Note, this is not physical power, as shown when Uryu gets his ass destroyed by Jugram, Yhwach’s subordinate and inferior.

Still Silver is explicitly stated to nullify Yhwach’s powers momentarily.

Uryu’s Schrift, the Anti-thesis, was stated, by a user of the Almighty, to be the only viable counter to it.

And the arrow is piercing Yhwach from behind him and is pointing either leveled with Yhwach or even downwards (which would be an impossible angle from that difference in height), despite the fact that Uryu is in front of Yhwach, as shown when Yhwach looks down and the panel focus on him, Ichigo looking to his right side, showing the Uryu is next to him, and Ichigo is shown that he is facing the front of Yhwach (Zoom in to see the white of Yhwach’s clothes under his cape). Further proving that Uryu making that shot from his positioning, doesn’t make any sense at all if he was just shooting his bow, there is only one clear way for this to make sense.

With all this information, it is clear that Uryu used the Anti-thesis to send the arrow into Yhwach’s body (Which is hax, not AP), and that the Still Silver head’s nullifying powers are what didn’t allow Yhwach to retaliate as Jugram did, and what allowed Ichigo to kill him.

Ergo, this isn’t an anti-feat.


The Real Scaling

As I mentioned a long time ago in this post, the Stabilization stuff, while I feel an argument can be made for its legitimacy, is 100% irrelevant to the important feats that the God tiers scale too.

Those being the Creation and Destruction of Bleach’s cosmology.

First off, the Creation of almost everything from the Soul King is an explicit creation feat. The fact that this wasn’t brought up at all in this CRT is genuinely baffling. Again, if you want the scans of this, bring in the members that I suggested and they will do as such.

Second off, and more importantly, Yhwach’s destruction/creation feat/statement was briefly mentioned, but the arguments against it are absurd.

Your first point, about how it is “logically impossible” is 100% an Argument from Incredulity and nothing more.

Yhwach is already stronger than both Mimihagi and the WSK. He directly states this to Mimihagi’s face, and he was casually throwing around Ichigo in their brief fight, even tanking a few of his attacks, who was explicitly stated to have reobtained his transcendent power for the purpose of killing the Soul King. And even if you want to argue that Yhwach’s Reiatsu was what allowed Ichigo to do that, that makes it a more direct showing that Almighty Yhwach is > than WSK.

Please explain how absorbing people that he is already stronger than makes him logically incapable of performing a great feat? Absorbing the strength of those you are stronger than doesn’t make you weaker than them initially or dependent on them for a significant boost in power. This is like saying, since Yhwach absorbed Jugram and Gerad’s power, that means that he should scale to their level of strength, no, not everyone is Majin Buu - just because he is absorbing another's power, does not mean that is because they are stronger than he is.

This argument you are making doesn’t make any sense. There is nothing here that even remotely suggest a limit to Yhwach’s power that would make scaling Yhwach to his Tier 3/2 statements/feats inconsistent or “logically impossible”, the only thing here that would suggest that is your own lack of belief that Yhwach could be that strong, and that is a fallacy, not an argument.

Yhwach was explicitly stated to desire to create a world without the fear of Death which was stopped due to Ichigo killing him. Essentially he would reverse what the Soul King originally did; At first, he was going to do this by letting Ichigo kill the Soul King who was stabilizing the three worlds and everything connected to them, and then in the aftermath, create his own world. But instead, Yhwach decided to “take everything from” Reio, absorbing both him and Mimihagi, preferring to fuse the worlds together with his power instead, which was said that no one besides Yhwach had the power to do such a thing (Askin stating this shows that this was Yhwach’s plan all along and he didn’t make up this shit as he went along), and we even see him using his Reiatsu (Yes, that black energy is confirmed to be Yhwach’s Reiatsu) and begin to do just that before his power is nulled by the Still Silver in the very next page for a brief moment, which Yhwach then considers inconsequential as it is only a temporary buffer that was already vanishing by the time Ichigo reached him to cut him down.

Showing that yes, the “villain trope” is what is happening here exactly.

To argue that this character’s entire goal and motivation that were meticulously planned for a thousand years, and the thing he was doing before having his power nulled for a moment, which even he found a pointless victory, wasn’t going to actually happen despite everything in the series saying as such is pure unadulterated headcanon, and I cannot believe it is being argued otherwise.

Miscellaneous Stuff

Why would a character’s power level, or them being physically fodder, mean their statements are inaccurate?

Ganju is a Shiba, a member of one of the five clans that are descendants of the five people who helped the Soul King create the world. It is very possible that he knows a bit about the Soul King and the importance of his destruction.

What even is this point?

And whether he was referring to Reio or Yhwach is irrelevant, because Yhwach's goals are for everything that Reio built to be reversed, to create his own world where Death doesn't exist. Originally he was going to have Reio's death be the catalyst of everything's destruction, and then remake his own world out of that.

Obviously, when he decides to do it himself with his own power, he would still try and destroy the same stuff. Thinking otherwise makes no sense.

Yhwach wanted to destroy everything Reio created, which yes, includes the Dangai and Garganta.

Conclusion

To wrap this up, I heavily disagree with a lot of the claims being made here, I find a majority of them to be baseless and clearly indicative of a lack of proper understanding of the source material.

I highly disapprove, and I once again implore you to allow a handful of non-staff Bleach experts into this thread for discussion as they will provide the will, arguments, and scans that I do not possess.

Thank you and goodbye.


Do not call me back here.
Click to expand...
Let's let Imade make his mega post and then downgraders can make their counter to Warren, Imade, and I, rather than loosely address points here and there that're going to be addressed again in more depth.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
What happened to waiting for Imade to make his post so we can tackle the rebuttals in waves? Because Warren and I address a lot of what's in the OP but haven't been responded to yet because we waiting, I'm gonna bump them again and hope we wait for real this time lol.
Click to expand...
Thats what happens when people still comment stuff and it leads into a minor debate in the meantime.
 
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