BlazBlue Regeneration and Erasure Hax issue

[Metallica_Kane]

(This is my first try, please be gentle)
My main issue is the High-Godly Regeneration given to BlazBlue.
This rating comes from two things from what it seems :
-Hakumen erasing Terumi with his Time Killer which is stronger than the Boundary erasure hax.
-The Prime Field Devices being made through self-observation, and the latter being compared to the Nox Nyctores' at a conceptual level.

About the Time Killer

About the former, we know that Hakumen clearly said that he's gonna erase Terumi completely. But we have to consider some other things :
The Time Killer is about "Killing Time" so that the opponent ceases to exist (It's all about the Susanoo time slashing, personally). When he tried to use it on Izanami, it didn't work because her time already ended, but she was not in a state where she was removed from history. She merely left time aeon ago so some manipulations couldn't work (Be it time freeze or aging, i guess) but she still existed as the Imperator and she was known of everyone. So, it's not really a matter of existing or not across past, present and future.

We can still use the "I will erase you completely", said by Hakky to say that it's a complete erasure but since when you can't use the world "erase" to say you'll kill and why did Hades just didn't care ? Her time sure ended but it at least should have killed her past, right ? It's kinda a vague you gotta be honest.

The skill kills your remaining time alive, and it's kinda obvious since it didn't work on Relius' data avatar, as it was raw information and data spends no life time. You can't bring Terumi saying he's metaphysical as well and all that, he's decribed as a life form even though he's spiritual. I believe that if Time Killer truly did work as said it would have no problem with destroying that Relius. And it wasn't a matter of interaction, he clearly fought him.
My point is that Time Killer instead of erasing across past present and future, it plainly destroys your time. When your time is ended or killed you're no longer inside time, but that doesn't mean you've been outright erased in the High-Godly fashion.
Let's keep in mind that TK has been told of as erasure once (iirc).

The Boundary Erasure Hax

Next is the Boundary erasure hax. I don't really get why you have to take this literally. The only region shown of the Boundary that's clearly stated to erase those who enter it is the Edge. The Boundary mostly have its common effects due to its insane amounts of Seithr, the facts that it connects dimensions and all that. Even though "Losing everything you ever were and everything you ever could be" can seem like erasure across past present and future (mostly because of how Jubei does like it's kinda worse than death), it literally be what happened to Roy, or rather what it seemed to be. When you drop there, you could lose your body, your soul, your mind and your personality (Like, the basic erasure). Nothing concrete indicates that it erases across history. There's no concrete evidence proving Jubei meant that. Dropping in the Boundary was worse than death to him, not factually (Well it is but you get my point).

Prime Field Device misinterpretation (?)

About the Prime Field Device thing, I may be wrong too but I think it's a misinterpretation. We've got this : Prime field Devices are made through self observation as stated by Kokonoe and Litchi, the former compares its observation to the Nox Nyctores' process at a conceptual level.
Just so things are clear, it's nowhere said that the Prime Field Devices self-observation or the Noxes' observation were done at the conceptual level. It's the Fluid Seithr Theory which is conceptually similar to the smelting of a causality weapon's core. Basically says that those two are based on the same concepts and knowledge (Probably the artificial identity part, since both got wills on their own and all that).

Noxes and Magic

I'd like to mention the High-Godly regeneration negation : Wounds inflicted by a Nox Nyctores scar the soul, which the victim cannot recover from even through Phenomena Intervention by Amaterasu. (Here's the whole thing ig). Is there really a High-Godly regeneration material here? To me it's just telling how Noxes and Magic affect the soul and how the Azure Grimoire would have a hard time healing wounds from them. I don't really get how the "remember those wounds" thing intervenes on the rating but that's how is it. I mean, "transcending phenomena intervention" is pretty vague and it really depends on what kind of phenomena are used.


I'd propose that Time Killer should be as Time Manipulation instead of the actual thing.
Jubei's statement should no longer be taken as evidence supporting Hakumen's TK strength.
The Prime Field Devices' series of screenshot should no longer qualify as High-Godly Regeneration.
The Noxes and Magic should be Regeneration Negation Low-Godly instead of High-Godly.
The Boundary erasure should be the basic one instead of the past/present/future.

The verse would mostly cap at Mid-Godly regeneration wise via Rachel, i think, unless there are some other evidences.
If anything, @Theglassman12 blog helped me with some stuff

 

[Deceived3596]

 

[Theglassman12]

I really don't understand what your argument is here for time killer, you say that we can use Hakumen's line of wanting to erase terumi's existence completely, but also say it's only time manipulation? You do realize that the fact Hakumen erases terumi completely makes this not normal time manipulation, and would need existence erasure as well for this ability to work right? As for your Izanami point, what part of this is a debunk on erasing someone's time? She literally says her time ended a long time ago, making her immune to anything Hakumen can do to her, it doesn't get more simple than that for Izanami no-selling the ability. As for the Relius scene, he said it's useless on him because he's not there. Hakumen's fighting a data clone, meaning he's wasting his time killer on something that's not the real Relius since he can just make more clones, so why bother using the time killer on a guy who's not really there?

Why would we not take it literally when not only does the library say your existence is erased, but Rachel or Valkenhayn do not correct Jubei on his claims? Nothing what you said disproves anything about Jubei's claims, especially when you highlight a scan that flat out says your existence will vanish, or in the Japanese, will fizzle out of existence. Not only that but given that Dark War added some extra feats for the boundary destroying your information when you enter the boundary, it's not something to say is not literal, not only that but Roy was threatened to be erased from all of existence because he fell into the boundary had Kokonoe not constantly observe him.

Did you read the explanation for the comparisons? Because the conceptual line has nothing to do with conceptual regen at all, just that they're literally one and the same, meaning anything the nox nyctores has, the prime field devices have with their observation. Those screenshots are 100% necessary for the regen to scale to them, removing them makes no sense as that's the main reason they all have it in the first place.

Again, did you read the rest of the text? Because it's literally explained in the rest of the explanation you didn't highlight as the reason for high godly negation.

 

[Metallica_Kane]

I really don't understand what your argument is here for time killer, you say that we can use Hakumen's line of wanting to erase terumi's existence completely, but also say it's only time manipulation? You do realize that the fact Hakumen erases terumi completely makes this not normal time manipulation, and would need existence erasure as well for this ability to work right? As for your Izanami point, what part of this is a debunk on erasing someone's time? She literally says her time ended a long time ago, making her immune to anything Hakumen can do to her, it doesn't get more simple than that for Izanami no-selling the ability. As for the Relius scene, he said it's useless on him because he's not there. Hakumen's fighting a data clone, meaning he's wasting his time killer on something that's not the real Relius since he can just make more clones, so why bother using the time killer on a guy who's not really there?



Why would we not take it literally when not only does the library say your existence is erased, but Rachel or Valkenhayn do not correct Jubei on his claims? Nothing what you said disproves anything about Jubei's claims, especially when you highlight a scan that flat out says your existence will vanish, or in the Japanese, will fizzle out of existence. Not only that but given that Dark War added some extra feats for the boundary destroying your information when you enter the boundary, it's not something to say is not literal, not only that but Roy was threatened to be erased from all of existence because he fell into the boundary had Kokonoe not constantly observe him.



Did you read the explanation for the comparisons? Because the conceptual line has nothing to do with conceptual regen at all, just that they're literally one and the same, meaning anything the nox nyctores h
s, the prime field devices have with their observation. Those screenshots are 100% necessary for the regen to scale to them, removing them makes no sense as that's the main reason they all have it in the first place.

Again, did you read the rest of the text? Because it's literally explained in the rest of the explanation you didn't highlight as the reason for high godly negation.

Well, I also said that a line like that wasn't actual evidence everytime. You can say you will erase your opponent, but merely kill him at last. Time Killer was never again depicted as erasure after that or even before that. It's almost even not EE to me. Hades was not in a state where she was erased from history or outside it, she was still part of history be it in the present or the past. She's vaguely outside time ngl, a time freeze did work on her for some time. Pretty weird to be said to have her time ended but be affected by a time freeze in the next game, isn't it ? Sorta means she's still under time since that's kinda the condition to be affected by a time stop.

You say that Time Killer is existence erasure and not mere Time Manipulation but it can't erase someone who is still inside history just because "her time ended" ? That just means that he can only kill those who have remaining life time like Terumi, it's not about past present and future. Hades was not even a life form anymore.
It should be Time Manipulation, not outright Existence Erasure. Since nothing besides Hakky's line even begins to prove that it's erasure (And we all know that anyone can use the same term to say he's gonna end a life, + it was the only use of the term), Hades being factually and contextually not outside history or erased from it (+she's really vaguely outside time) and, unlike Terumi she doesn't live, the Time Killer would normally kill the remaining life time of its targets. As Hades is not really outside time or history, it would make more sense. Since Terumi has no physical body, he just vanished. It's obvious he came back anyway, Hakumen can't kill nonexistence and Terumi had things like Observation. He kills his opponents by slashing their time and can negate few immortalities in the process, that's it. No concrete evidence says that it completely erases across past, present and future and it's featless beyond that.
"It's useless on me now", said it was useless on his data clone. Why couldn't it erase the clone across history even though he interacted with him? Well, i admit that this doesn't really contradicts anything since Hakky listened to Relius and didn't tried, but it's not bad to point that out.

The "normal existences vanish" part is for the Edge, not the whole Boundary. They're not exactly the same thing. Rachel and Valk didn't have to correct him, as It was not even necessary to do that. They don't care how we take it as existence erasure or not. You need to prove that he meant erasure across history, not just using your own interpretation as evidence. Please provide the Dark War feats, I've seen such feats nowhere in the mainline, personally. So far the Boundary shown basic erasure.

All your text just proves no High-Godly regen, you just have to read carefully to see the flaw. The only substantial thing -aside of the seithr theories info they give is the "observe itself and rectify its existence" part, but that gives no HGR. The sole ulterior text often added to the feat is Terumi surviving Time Killer and it's not 100% reliable.

About the [rest of the explanation] of HGR negation, either I didn't understand it or I didn't saw the remaining explanation. All I saw about it was on Nu, Hades and Lambda profiles.

 

[Theglassman12]

It being not an ability to you doesn't disprove the ability existing. I personally don't think Goku using instant transmission is teleporting, because that's not an ability to me. That's basically what you're saying right now. Also wow, what a way to contradict yourself, you literally have a scan where Izanami says she's flat out unaffected by a time freeze while trying to argue said time freeze somehow affected her? Did you pay attention to the scene at all or are you just cherry picking at this point? And no, Terumi was blatantly erased, his body vanished from existence when Time Killer hit him. If it was a normal death we'd hear his body collapse, but we didn't, it literally just fades away, so this is clear cut EE.

It is existence erasure through time manipulation, no normal time hax would literally erase someone from existence without it also having EE as an ability. Yeah, someone's remaining life time, like Terumi, who's immortal and has existence since the dawn of time, erasing that person's time would still be erasing them across the past present and future since their time is infinite as an immortal being. I already had this discussion the last time someone tried to debunk HGR and it's not really helping your case when we're talking about someone with infinite time on their hands. Also what part of this entire debunk is supposed to debunk Hakumen's time killer being stronger than the boundary? I already explained how it's erasure and not just mere time manipulation, if you're going to ignore the blatant showing of Terumi's body vanishing from existence then you're either not paying attention or ignorant at this point. Ah yes, the time killer, which affected Terumi, a being who resists the boundary's erasure, is totally a featless thing. Fantastic argument. Also nothing about your Hades point is remotely debunking what Hakumen has, she literally has no time in her existence, therefore time killer doesn't work on her, you're not making any arguments here by just explaining how she's unfazed by time killer. No he's clearly referring to himself, not the clone, because he's not there fighting hakumen, therefore Hakumen using time killer means nothing cause he's just fighting a clone relius can easily make again and again, so it's useless to point this out.

They're two dimensions connected to each other, so if they didn't have to correct him, then he's right, which shoots your entire argument in the foot. Also what the **** are you talking about "your own interpretation"? There's nothing to interpret, he literally says "everything you ever were" past "and everything you ever could be" future. If this is my own interpretation and not just what the character flat out says, then idk what to tell you other than, it's blatantly obvious what he's talking about. The burden of proof is on you to prove he wasn't talking about historical erasure, because he talks about it being worse than death, and elaborates how it's worse than death.

Kagami: …Yeah, that's right.
The Takamagahara System was able to catch the readings of 3 people.
But when it went to salvage, it only found you and Raabe. We don't know where Rei is.
Ciel: …No.
No…no, that can't be. How could that be!?
We were in the Boundary! If Rei couldn't be salvaged, then….
Is he (she) still all alone, somewhere in the Boundary?
TB: Normally, his (her) information will fragment and disappear into the Boundary.
Even if he (she) is lucky and is swept into some place's time axis (時間軸 jikanjiku), there's no guarantee he (she) will still be sane.

Congratulations, you didn't read the ******* text, self observation, something terumi did to come back from time killer, which is more powerful than the boundary's EE, is where the High godly feat comes from. Can you actually read the text for once instead of half assing it? Because it's really annoying trying to explain what's literally on the page.

 

[Vietthai96]

Sigh.....Glass, bro calm down, i know you frustrating

Anyway back to the topic, i disagree. This is the case where OP sematic arguing an ability being only Time Manip because it is erase someone time and called Time Killer. Which is very flawed, an ability can have mutiple categories and effects. You can't just say that because it affect time and have time in its name to limit it only to time manipulation. Also for other points, you say about it should not be past, present and future erasure is massively wrong, time is what gave the concept of history, of past, present and future. Please evaluate the feats and contexts deeply

 

[Theglassman12]

It gets very annoying when people don't bother reading or just ignore the entire context and just make a downgrade because of it, but I'll try to temper myself.

 

[LiveElvinClive]

Read through this and imo OP’s arguments sound pretty solid. If I could point something out, there are another few issues regarding the High Godly ranking for Noxes and magic. The wounds transcending Phenomena Intervention only seems to apply to Ragna, and I don’t necessarily agree with the idea that the wounds are unable to be recovered from.

After Izanami attacks him, Ragna assumes he’ll heal just fine until Rachel tells him that his wounds were inflicted by magic. Rachel explains that the Azure Grimoire will remember those wounds, and we see this later after his fight with Nu-13. Even when the timeline gets reset, the Azure still remembered the wounds Nu inflicted and gave them back onto Ragna. As far as I can tell, this is the only time magic or Nox attacks affect anyone in this manner, and it’s only because of Ragna’s Azure Grimoire. So this really shouldn’t be applied to the cast as a whole.

There are also two statements which completely contradict the idea that Nox and magic wounds can’t be recovered from. Right before she explains about magic scarring the soul, Rachel says “Those wounds were caused by magic. Even with the Azure Grimoire, they will not heal quickly.” And after fighting Nine in Centralfiction, Ragna says “Damn it. I can’t move my body right… Even BlazBlue would take a while to heal this…” So going by these statements, the Azure Grimoire is able to heal magic-based wounds. It’s just that magic slows it down.

 

[Theglassman12]

You say this despite the fact the Nox Nyctores all have the same properties, like with Hakumen being able to negate ragna's healing factor, or how Nirvana can do the same thing, and even Kokonoe points out how insane it is that Ragna can heal from said wounds, also when the hell did this apply to the entire cast? This only applies to people who have magic or the Nox or the Azure, so you're just making massive assumptions here.

If that's the case, then explain why the hell Ragna's wounds reopened and didn't heal when Nu attacked him, because if it was contradicted, Ragna wouldn't be getting wounded at all after the timeline reset. Or how Kokonoe points out how insane it is for ragna to heal from Nox Nyctores wounds when they're normally impossible to recover from. Both Rachel and Kokonoe's words, with the added scene of Ragna's wounds opening up does not contradict shit here. Especially when the Black Beast can die to magic and any magic based weapons like the Nox Nyctores or Ars Magus.

 

[LiveElvinClive]

You say this despite the fact the Nox Nyctores all have the same properties, like with Hakumen being able to negate ragna's healing factor, or how Nirvana can do the same thing, and even Kokonoe points out how insane it is that Ragna can heal from said wounds, also when the hell did this apply to the entire cast? This only applies to people who have magic or the Nox or the Azure, so you're just making massive assumptions here.

The examples you listed for Ragna would only apply to him, and that’s because of the specific way the Azure Grimoire reacts to magic and Nox Nyctores based attacks. While I can't comment on the example with Hakumen, Nirvana isn’t shown negating his healing factor. At best she just slows it down since Ragna and Litchi discuss how he’d been able to heal from her stab wounds.

None of the other characters are shown being affected the same way Ragna is when they’re attacked by magic or Nox Nyctores. I bring this up because most of the cast is listed as resisting Regeneration Negation up to a High Godly level because they fight Ragna or take hits from Nox Nyctores, both of which are claimed by the pages as being able to negate any form of recovery.

The problem is that neither the screenshot that’s used, nor Rachel’s full explanation suggest that the Azure has the same properties as magic or Nox. She just says that it will remember the wounds.

If that's the case, then explain why the hell Ragna's wounds reopened and didn't heal when Nu attacked him, because if it was contradicted, Ragna wouldn't be getting wounded at all after the timeline reset. Or how Kokonoe points out how insane it is for ragna to heal from Nox Nyctores wounds when they're normally impossible to recover from. Both Rachel and Kokonoe's words, with the added scene of Ragna's wounds opening up does not contradict shit here. Especially when the Black Beast can die to magic and any magic based weapons like the Nox Nyctores or Ars Magus.

Your point about Ragna’s wounds being reopened is explicitly the result of the Azure Grimoire remembering the wounds from Nu’s Murakumo. There’s also nothing to suggest that these wounds wouldn’t have healed by themselves. It’s just that after they opened up, Ragna passed out, and when he came to, Celica was already healing him. I’m also not sure where you get the idea that contradicting the “No recovery” idea means Ragna wouldn’t be hurt period. It’s just that the wounds would take a longer time to heal.

How exactly does Rachel's statement support Kokonoe's? Rachel tells Ragna "Even with the Azure Grimoire, they will not heal quickly" when referring to his wounds. She doesn't say "your wounds won't heal at all," just that they won't heal quickly. There's also no point in bringing up the Black Beast when it has nothing to do with the argument. I'm not trying to argue that magic, Nox Nyctores, and Ars Magus can't kill. I'm just saying the idea that nothing can recover from their wounds is heavily flawed when there are statements from characters that suggest the opposite.

 

[Theglassman12]

You can't comment on Hakumen because you don't have a refute against the Nox having the same regen negating properties, and that's not my point on Nirvana, Kokonoe points out it's insane you can heal from a Nox Nyctores wound, Rachel also points out in the same scene the Nox Nyctores does the same type of wounds. Also if this only applies to ragna, why did Kokonoe points out the blazblue can easily heal the wound when talking about a general Nox Nyctores wound if it's just a ragna thing? That would imply that these wounds would affect anyone, not just ragna.

Meaning they resist it, it's simple as that. Your mental gymnastics on how this somehow only applies to ragna and not everyone else despite soul scarring being a thing isn't going to change the fact that they've fought numerous characters with the Nox and Magic and aren't crippled by any wound.

She literally says especially in your case, meaning the azure also has the same properties. So again, nothing about this remotely debunks anything.

If they wouldn't heal by themselves then why was Celica needed? Also stop taking my words out of context, I never said "No Recovery" I said "normally impossible to recover from". Not the same thing here.

Which still implies a negation of healing if it makes his healing factor a lot harder for to work so this negation still stays. There is a point in bringing up the black beast because it's literally where the High Godly negation comes from. If you refuse to debunk the black beast's regen being negged then you're argument holds no ground here because that's the core reason for high godly negation. Maybe pay attention to the argument instead of making headcanon.

Side note, but I gotta love how in the past few BB threads new users just log in to agree with the downgrades that's being pushed for the series. Totally not suspicious whatsoever.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I agree with Glass FRA.

 

[LiveElvinClive]

You can't comment on Hakumen because you don't have a refute against the Nox having the same regen negating properties, and that's not my point on Nirvana, Kokonoe points out it's insane you can heal from a Nox Nyctores wound, Rachel also points out in the same scene the Nox Nyctores does the same type of wounds. Also if this only applies to ragna, why did Kokonoe points out the blazblue can easily heal the wound when talking about a general Nox Nyctores wound if it's just a ragna thing? That would imply that these wounds would affect anyone, not just ragna.

Meaning they resist it, it's simple as that. Your mental gymnastics on how this somehow only applies to ragna and not everyone else despite soul scarring being a thing isn't going to change the fact that they've fought numerous characters with the Nox and Magic and aren't crippled by any wound.

She literally says especially in your case, meaning the azure also has the same properties. So again, nothing about this remotely debunks anything.

The reason I can’t comment on Hakumen is because outside of a single one-off statement, I couldn’t find anything in the story mode that suggests Ookami can negate healing factors. I found a description of Ookami’s Library entry on the wiki which states Ragna can’t heal from Ookami’s wounds, but in all the times they’re shown fighting, Ragna hasn’t once explicitly commented on being unable to heal his wounds after the fight.

There's a reason Kokonoe said it was insane he could heal from a Nox Nyctores. Right before she says that, she asks Ragna "Who's the person who healed your wound?" She was under the assumption that a person healed it and wasn't expecting the Grimoire itself to be responsible.

As I stated in my first post, I'm only arguing that the wounds transcending Phenomenon Intervention specifically should applies to Ragna. I'm not saying everyone is immune to having their souls scarred. What I am saying is that Ragna's crippling is explicitly shown to be the result of the Azure Grimoire remembering his wounds, and he is the only one shown to be affected by magic and Nox in that manner.

How does Rachel saying "Especially in your case, the Azure Grimoire will remember those wounds" mean that the Azure has the same properties? Nothing about that statement suggests that. The screenshot the wiki cites for this claim is her describing how the Azure remembers magic-based wounds. She doesn't say the Azure has the same properties as magic or Nox Nyctores. She's specifically describing how the Azure Grimoire is vulnerable to it.

If they wouldn't heal by themselves then why was Celica needed? Also stop taking my words out of context, I never said "No Recovery" I said "normally impossible to recover from". Not the same thing here.

Which still implies a negation of healing if it makes his healing factor a lot harder for to work so this negation still stays. There is a point in bringing up the black beast because it's literally where the High Godly negation comes from. If you refuse to debunk the black beast's regen being negged then you're argument holds no ground here because that's the core reason for high godly negation. Maybe pay attention to the argument instead of making headcanon.

Side note, but I gotta love how in the past few BB threads new users just log in to agree with the downgrades that's being pushed for the series. Totally not suspicious whatsoever.

Because Celica’s magic would be able to heal the wounds faster. And I’m not taking your words out of context. I was just shortening the quote to something brief so my sentence wouldn’t run on.

Maybe the reason I didn't refute the Black Beast's regen is because the argument for it relies on scaling to Terumi surviving Hakumen's Time Killer, which was already covered by OP.

 

[Theglassman12]

If you bothered 100% the story modes in CT you'd find the answer there. And? Ragna is capable of healing a lot better than he did before against NN wounds, which Kokonoe points out so nothing about later fights debunk what the library and CT shows. So how exactly does this debunk the fact that it's a wound that can't be healed on its own? You do realize that the wound being healed by the azure and kokonoe being surprised debunks your entire point that it only affects the azure, since the azure is capable of healing off the wounds.

Why would it only apply to ragna? The wounds transcend phenomena intervention has nothing to do with it only working on him because Kokonoe comments on that being impossible, even Rachel just mentions it being a wound caused by magic in a general sense does not imply it specifically only applies to ragna.

The azure grimoire, which comes from the black beast, the thing that's the source of information from every single Nox Nyctores, and can attack one's very soul on top of being superior than the Nox Nyctores in every single way. If the azure is specifically the only thing vulnerable then Kokonoe wouldn't mention it being a general wound, or Rachel doing the same thing about magic so your argument does not hold up.

Celica's existence prevents the PI war from happening on Ragna which stopped the wounds from getting worse. Had it only been Celica's healing his wounds would've opened up all the time from every reset, which happens a lot in CPEX.

That's not the argument for High Godly negation. Negation on High godly all scales from killing the black beast, so claiming there's no high godly negation (which the OP claims out of nowhere) is flat out wrong since you're ignoring the main reason the negation exists, and he hasn't done a good job debunking the high godly feat whatsoever.

 

[LiveElvinClive]

If you bothered 100% the story modes in CT you'd find the answer there. And? Ragna is capable of healing a lot better than he did before against NN wounds, which Kokonoe points out so nothing about later fights debunk what the library and CT shows. So how exactly does this debunk the fact that it's a wound that can't be healed on its own? You do realize that the wound being healed by the azure and kokonoe being surprised debunks your entire point that it only affects the azure, since the azure is capable of healing off the wounds.

Okay, the point about Ookami negating Ragna’s healing factor was my bad. However, the wounds from Ookami not healing doesn't mean it explicitly applies to all Nox Nyctores. I already explained that Nirvana, another Nox Nyctores, leaves a wound that Ragna later heals from. How are my points debunked with the Azure healing a wound and Kokonoe being surprised? I've made it clear that I'm arguing about the "transcending Phenomena Intervention" part of Rachel's quote, not that the characters can't heal from magic or Nox attacks.

Why would it only apply to ragna? The wounds transcend phenomena intervention has nothing to do with it only working on him because Kokonoe comments on that being impossible, even Rachel just mentions it being a wound caused by magic in a general sense does not imply it specifically only applies to ragna.

The azure grimoire, which comes from the black beast, the thing that's the source of information from every single Nox Nyctores, and can attack one's very soul on top of being superior than the Nox Nyctores in every single way. If the azure is specifically the only thing vulnerable then Kokonoe wouldn't mention it being a general wound, or Rachel doing the same thing about magic so your argument does not hold up.

Rachel's exact words when she tells Ragna about magic and Nox Nyctores-based wounds are as such: "Magic attacks also cause scarring of the soul. Especially in your case, the Azure Grimoire will remember those wounds. Transcending even phenomena intervention." She's saying that while magic attacks scar the soul, Ragna's Azure Grimoire furthers these effects by remembering the wounds he received even if PI occurs.

Kokonoe's quote isn't related to the point about wounds transcending Phenomena Intervention. If you believe the wounds transcending PI applies to other characters, feel free to show some evidence. Because from what I've seen, only Ragna's wounds have been shown transcending Phenomena Intervention. No one else suffers from these problems, and it only affecting Ragna lines up with Rachel's line mentioned above.

Celica's existence prevents the PI war from happening on Ragna which stopped the wounds from getting worse. Had it only been Celica's healing his wounds would've opened up all the time from every reset, which happens a lot in CPEX.

If the wounds were already healed by her, then the only way they would reopen is if the timeline was reset to before they were healed.

That's not the argument for High Godly negation. Negation on High godly all scales from killing the black beast, so claiming there's no high godly negation (which the OP claims out of nowhere) is flat out wrong since you're ignoring the main reason the negation exists, and he hasn't done a good job debunking the high godly feat whatsoever.

And the argument for High Godly regen on both the Black Beast's page and the Ragna's Black Beast form is that they scale to Terumi's self-observation. The same self-observation that he used to survive Hakumen's Time Killer. OP brought up points that are calling into question the claim that it erases others from the past, present, and future because the only evidence of this is a literal interpretation of Jubei's quote. And Jubei's quote is just his view of what falling into the Boundary is like. The only place explicitly stated to erase others' existences is the Edge, which is a space between the Boundary and the physical world.

 

[Theglassman12]

Because Kokonoe mentions the wound from a Nox Nyctores in general being hard to heal from. Meaning this applies to any and all Nox, not just Ookami so your entire argument falls flat.

And she also says "those wounds are caused by magic" earlier on in the scene, meaning this is just a normal trait that magic can do to other folks. Yes it does because Rachel points out the Nox Nyctores wounds when talking about transcending phenomena intervention, and Kokonoe mentioning the same wounds he gets, so they are connected here. To say they're not is being ignorant to the entire context.

Which wouldn't be possible because of her existence as a chronophantasma so your argument doesn't work here.

And what part of Jubei's point in the Boundary is wrong? Because no one corrects him nor is the Boundary's abilities contradicted, and the Edge is still something you'd have to fall through to get to the boundary, so the erasure process will still happen regardless. The more you don't try to prove Jubei's statement is wrong the less likely your argument will be pushed through.

 

[Nobody234]

On the topic of the damage transcension property, isn't Jubei also another proof of that feat?
Man literaly spend the rest of the C series being heavily wounded after getting wounded by magic and he still fataly injured despite all of the reset that happen throughout the series

 

[Theglassman12]

We never got an elaboration on what gave him a wound though that lingered on, that and he got wounded by Nine and was completely fine at the end so that’s not really something to use

 

[Nobody234]

Eh... pretty at the end of Hakumen CS story, he straight up said is inflicted by magic and i'm pretty sure the series make it obvious that he's not fine at all after he got that wound, CP even show that his wound start to open up when he fight Phantom and the cast even comment on his condition like in his arcade for example, Ragna show concern of his body and after the fight he much said "Tell me, you don't really intent to fight in that state do you?" and his arcade take place in ACT3 so this pretty much confirm that his wound still stay after reset and is inflicted by magic

Jubei statement can be found here at 20:40


Jubei statement about his wound opening up 47:20


Ragna statement can be found here 1:27

 

[Theglassman12]

Then I stand corrected, didn’t realize they elaborated on what wounded him

 

[LiveElvinClive]

Because Kokonoe mentions the wound from a Nox Nyctores in general being hard to heal from. Meaning this applies to any and all Nox, not just Ookami so your entire argument falls flat.

No she doesn't. When she mentions the Nox Nyctores, Kokonoe's exact words are "Impossible. It repaired a wound from a Nox Nyctores? It may be the BlazBlue, but... No, it couldn't be..." She's not saying the wounds are hard to heal from. She's just questioning what Ragna told her. And if the wounds transcending Phenomena Intervention applies to all Nox injuries, then show me some proof. Show me instances where characters other than Ragna suddenly have their injuries spring up after Phenomena Intervention.

And she also says "those wounds are caused by magic" earlier on in the scene, meaning this is just a normal trait that magic can do to other folks. Yes it does because Rachel points out the Nox Nyctores wounds when talking about transcending phenomena intervention, and Kokonoe mentioning the same wounds he gets, so they are connected here. To say they're not is being ignorant to the entire context.

The soul scarring is a trait of magic which can affect others. Rachel's statements about transcending Phenomena Intervention and Nox-based wounds occur after she says the Azure Grimoire will remember Ragna's wounds. She even asks Ragna if he recalls the wounds he's received from Nox Nyctores. The only connections between Rachel's statement and Kokonoe's are the Azure Grimoire's reaction to certain attacks and bringing up Nox Nyctores. But even then, both conversations are referring to completely different injuries. The wound Rachel refers to is magic-based, while the one Kokonoe's talking about is a stab wound from Nirvana.

Which wouldn't be possible because of her existence as a chronophantasma so your argument doesn't work here.

Okay. How exactly does Celica's status as a Chrono Phantasma render that argument invalid? I'm aware that it's said Celica's immune to Phenomena Intervention and that as long as Ragna is with her, he won't be affected. However, there are several instances where Ragna is shown still being affected by Phenomena Intervention and his wounds don't spring back up, so it isn't like Celica's presence is keeping his wounds from reopening.

And what part of Jubei's point in the Boundary is wrong? Because no one corrects him nor is the Boundary's abilities contradicted, and the Edge is still something you'd have to fall through to get to the boundary, so the erasure process will still happen regardless. The more you don't try to prove Jubei's statement is wrong the less likely your argument will be pushed through.

That is just Jubei's interpretation of what falling into the Boundary is like. No one corrects him because his statement is at the end of that particular scene. How exactly are the Boundary's abilities not contradicted when there's nothing to suggest that Jubei's statement is true? The only thing said about the Edge is that it "causes normal existences to vanish." Nothing is mentioned about it erasing others from the past, present, and future, nor is there anything concrete that suggests the Boundary can do that. It's shown affecting memories and there are statements that it can damage flesh; remove your memories, personality, and sense of self; and erase and shatter souls, but there's nothing that explicitly shows or suggests it erases others in the way the wiki claims.

 

[Theglassman12]

"It repaired a wound from a Nox Nyctores". You literally have her say something that makes it a general wound and not specific to azure stuff. Also that's not how it works, Ragna's feat with Rachel's statement on the wounds, plus Kokonoe's statement proves the Nox can do something like this, prove that they cannot do this because their statements and showings prove otherwise.

So you're not going to address the comment where Rachel literally says "those wounds were caused by magic". Congratulations you failed to debunk my point. Also doesn't help with the jubei statements on his wound being from magic. Completely different injuries that Rachel mentions have the same properties in CPEX so you're once again ignoring my point.

Because your entire argument hinges on the fact that they PI before he got healed which doesn't work at all because she literally prevents that from happening to him, so your point against Celica healing him is invalid.

That's not a debunk, a scene ending doesn't remotely debunk the fact Jubei's wrong, if they wanted to correct him the scene would've continued with Rachel clarifying it to him, but they don't, at this point you're moving the goalpost. Ah yes, you literally give examples of the boundary erasing beings and say there's nothing to suggest Jubei's claims is true, and also ignore the dark war comment above that literally shows informational erasure. Can you remotely try to actually debunk his claims instead of saying "we don't know if its true or not" when we have evidence to show otherwise?

 

[LiveElvinClive]

"It repaired a wound from a Nox Nyctores". You literally have her say something that makes it a general wound and not specific to azure stuff. Also that's not how it works, Ragna's feat with Rachel's statement on the wounds, plus Kokonoe's statement proves the Nox can do something like this, prove that they cannot do this because their statements and showings prove otherwise.

You keep ignoring the fact that Rachel's statement about transcending Phenomena Intervention comes right after she talks about how "Especially in your case, the Azure Grimoire will remember those wounds." We see this happen twice later on in the game, as I already explained. Kokonoe's statement doesn't doesn't prove anything. She just says "It repaired a wound from a Nox Nyctores?"

You mean the statements I have repeatedly gone over and cited context for? And the singular showing of Ragna's wounds flaring back up compared to the multiple instances where they don't?

So you're not going to address the comment where Rachel literally says "those wounds were caused by magic". Congratulations you failed to debunk my point. Also doesn't help with the jubei statements on his wound being from magic. Completely different injuries that Rachel mentions have the same properties in CPEX so you're once again ignoring my point.

Rachel says the wounds were caused by magic and that magic scars the soul. That is a normal trait of magic attacks. What isn't a normal trait of magic or Nox Nyctores attacks is their wounds transcending Phenomena Intervention.

Rachel's statement about magic and Nox Nyctores attacks having the same properties is in reference to how they affect the Azure Grimoire. Her words verbatim are "Magic attacks also cause scarring of the soul. Especially in your case, the Azure Grimoire will remember those wounds. Transcending even phenomena intervention. It's the same as with injuries sustained from a Nox Nyctores. I'm sure you can recall those wounds?" If she said that second sentence near the end of this quote, you would have a point, but she doesn't.

As for the point with Jubei, yes, it's said his wounds were caused by magic, but right before the wound opens in CP, there's the sound of someone being hit. Jubei's seen flying back with a look of pain, then he comments on the wound opening back up. It's pretty clear the attack he just took was what caused the wound to reopen. The reason the wound stays with him is because Phenomena Intervention is never shown resetting the timeline to before he received it.

Because your entire argument hinges on the fact that they PI before he got healed which doesn't work at all because she literally prevents that from happening to him, so your point against Celica healing him is invalid.

Celica only prevents Ragna from being affected by Phenomena Intervention while she is near him. Ragna is explicitly shown being affected by Phenomena Intervention multiple times without Celica being there to prevent it, yet his wounds don't crop back up.

That's not a debunk, a scene ending doesn't remotely debunk the fact Jubei's wrong, if they wanted to correct him the scene would've continued with Rachel clarifying it to him, but they don't, at this point you're moving the goalpost. Ah yes, you literally give examples of the boundary erasing beings and say there's nothing to suggest Jubei's claims is true, and also ignore the dark war comment above that literally shows informational erasure. Can you remotely try to actually debunk his claims instead of saying "we don't know if its true or not" when we have evidence to show otherwise?

They also don't elaborate on it any further in the scene, so it's just a one-off statement with nothing else to support the idea that it erases others across past, present, and future.

I'm not moving goalposts. I'm asking you to show evidence that supports Jubei's claim about the Boundary causing you to "lose everything you ever were and everything you ever could be."

I brought up those examples to show that while the Boundary is stated to erase others from existence, there's nothing to support Jubei's statement. And with what I have provided, you could even argue Jubei was referring to one of those effects. After all, erasing your memories, personality, and sense of self could also be interpreted as "losing everything you ever were and everything you ever could be" since you wouldn't have anything that resembled your past self or goals.

I ignored the Dark War comment because that doesn't prove anything about Jubei's statement. All it proves is the Boundary can erase others from existence and manipulate their information. Neither of those specifically prove the claim about the Boundary erasing you from history.

 

[Metallica_Kane]

I'd better should haven't pointed out BlazBlue wank..

 

[LiveElvinClive]

I'd better should haven't pointed out BlazBlue wank..

I don’t see why you’d say that. You’re one of the only people on this site to bring up how Blazblue’s hax aren’t entirely accurate.

 

[Theglassman12]

Yes, it repaired a wound from a nox nyctores, meaning it's not possible to heal it conventionally, granting it regeneration negation, no amount of mental gymnastics is going to disprove what Kokonoe says. She literally proves it's a general wound on top of rachel's statements, at this point you're in denial. Disprove rachel and kokonoe's statements or drop the subject, because you have no basis in your argument whatsoever.

You literally have Rachel say "those wounds are caused by magic" this completely debunks your notion that this is not something magic and the Nox has. A sound of someone getting hit... right after you hear the sound of fire, something Nine uses a lot for her magic. Can you remotely try to debunk the points against your argument at all or are you just throwing shit at the wall to find what sticks? Because that's what I'm getting from you right now.

Yeah, his wounds don't crop up because he resists it at this point. Something kokonoe points out when he's capable of healing on his own. Not an argument here at all.

Again, try harder. Because a scene ending does not debunk shit, if anything it proves his point because no one corrects him and just moves on.

Yes you are, you literally have scans on the Boundary erasing someone, with jubei's statement, and the Dark War comments from Takamagahara, something you conveniently ignore because it doesn't fit your narrative on Jubei's claim. Bring an actual contradiction to jubei's statements where it DOESN'T do that. The burden of proof is on you, not me, because I already shown the evidence for the boundary doing this.

And again, love how you wanna ignore the fact the black beast's death to the ars magus and everything that's superior to it is where everyone having regen negation comes from. You wanna actually try to tackle Ars Magus being able to kill the black beast at all or no? Because everyone's resistance to regen negation and having regen negation comes from this feat.

 

[Nobody234]

Pretty sure that CF start with a grand universal reset cause by Doomdays, that reset everything back to CT which is way before Jubei receive the injury and his wound is still there despite the reset

 

[LiveElvinClive]

Yes, it repaired a wound from a nox nyctores, meaning it's not possible to heal it conventionally, granting it regeneration negation, no amount of mental gymnastics is going to disprove what Kokonoe says. She literally proves it's a general wound on top of rachel's statements, at this point you're in denial. Disprove rachel and kokonoe's statements or drop the subject, because you have no basis in your argument whatsoever.

I've already explained at length why Rachel's statements are only applicable to the Azure Grimoire with multiple links to cite my sources. You, on the other hand, have repeated points that were already explained and keep saying my arguments are wrong with barely any evidence to back up your claims.

You literally have Rachel say "those wounds are caused by magic" this completely debunks your notion that this is not something magic and the Nox has. A sound of someone getting hit... right after you hear the sound of fire, something Nine uses a lot for her magic. Can you remotely try to debunk the points against your argument at all or are you just throwing shit at the wall to find what sticks? Because that's what I'm getting from you right now.

I'm not arguing about the wounds being caused by magic or magic scarring the soul. My argument is that "transcending Phenomena Intervention" specifically applies to the Azure and nothing else. I have already shown and explained the reasons for this repeatedly, but you don't seem to get it.

And I am debunking the points against my argument. If the attack Nine used is fire magic, then why is there the sound effect of a physical hit instead of a fireball hitting Jubei?

Again, try harder. Because a scene ending does not debunk shit, if anything it proves his point because no one corrects him and just moves on.

Since you seem to be really confident that he's right, do me a favor and provide actual evidence that the Boundary does what he says. Don't just tell me "he says it and no one corrects him so it must be true." Give me actual proof. I want either an example of someone being erased from the past, present, and future, or a statement from someone knowledgeable of the Boundary who backs up Jubei's claim.

Yes you are, you literally have scans on the Boundary erasing someone, with jubei's statement, and the Dark War comments from Takamagahara, something you conveniently ignore because it doesn't fit your narrative on Jubei's claim. Bring an actual contradiction to jubei's statements where it DOESN'T do that. The burden of proof is on you, not me, because I already shown the evidence for the boundary doing this.

I showed you multiple scans where the Boundary is shown to have statements of erasing others from existence, but none of them supported the idea that it erases others from the timeline.

I didn't ignore the Dark War statement. I already addressed it in a previous post and how it doesn't prove your point about Jubei's statement. The Dark War statement only proves that the Boundary has existence erasure and information manipulation, but just because someone is erased from existence doesn't mean they're automatically erased from the past, present, and future.

And again, love how you wanna ignore the fact the black beast's death to the ars magus and everything that's superior to it is where everyone having regen negation comes from. You wanna actually try to tackle Ars Magus being able to kill the black beast at all or no? Because everyone's resistance to regen negation and having regen negation comes from this feat.

I already said my piece on it, but since it bears repeating, the Black Beast's High Godly regen, the thing that prevents it from being killed, is stated by the wiki, to be because it scales to Terumi's self-observation. Terumi's self-observation is what let him regenerate from the Time Killer, which is supposedly superior to the Boundary's erasure hax. The evidence for this erasure hax is just Jubei's statement, which I have been showing evidence against. The examples of existence erasure that I listed do not mention the ones affected being erased from the past, present, and future.

 

[Nobody234]

Eh... tbh i'm not convince.

The physical sounds can just be design choice which is not the first time something like this happen and beside the fire sound already suggest more to her using magic rather than not, plus is more in character for Nine to start with fire magic because literaly almost everytime Nine take an aggresive approach, she start by throwing fire magic to her enemies.

And again Jubei wound is still there despite the universal reset at the start of CF which reset the timeline to CT, the time when he's still doesn't get the wound, but his wound is still there after the reset anyway.

And beside is Jubei wrong though? Because as far as i can see there's nothing that proof that he's wrong and nobody trying to correct him only point that he is right and since Jubei is one of the character that know more about this stuff, i don't see why he can be wrong especially since there's more pointing that his claim is right.

Anyway i'm with Glass here, because i overal found Glass being more consistent with his point.

 

[LiveElvinClive]

And again Jubei wound is still there despite the universal reset at the start of CF which reset the timeline to CT, the time when he's still doesn't get the wound, but his wound is still there after the reset anyway.

And beside is Jubei wrong though? Because as far as i can see there's nothing that proof that he's wrong and nobody trying to correct him only point that he is right and since Jubei is one of the character that know more about this stuff, i don't see why he can be wrong especially since there's more pointing that his claim is right.

Anyway i'm with Glass here, because i overal found Glass being more consistent with his point.

The Embryo didn’t reset the timeline. It just rewrote everyone’s memories, which wouldn’t affect his injuries.

There’s nothing to prove his claim, though. The evidence I provided only supports that the Boundary erases existences. None of them bring up anything close to his “losing everything you were and ever will be” claim.

 

[Metallica_Kane]

It being not an ability to you doesn't disprove the ability existing. I personally don't think Goku using instant transmission is teleporting, because that's not an ability to me. That's basically what you're saying right now. Also wow, what a way to contradict yourself, you literally have a scan where Izanami says she's flat out unaffected by a time freeze while trying to argue said time freeze somehow affected her? Did you pay attention to the scene at all or are you just cherry picking at this point? And no, Terumi was blatantly erased, his body vanished from existence when Time Killer hit him. If it was a normal death we'd hear his body collapse, but we didn't, it literally just fades away, so this is clear cut EE.

I don't get what you're even trying to say in the first lines tbh. Hades mostly resisted, she wasn't unaffected. She clearly got stopped. I understood that even after writing OP. Terumi's body vanishing is plain logic, he has no physical body, and souls leave no corpses after "dying". It's almost normal that he fades away.

It is existence erasure through time manipulation, no normal time hax would literally erase someone from existence without it also having EE as an ability. Yeah, someone's remaining life time, like Terumi, who's immortal and has existence since the dawn of time, erasing that person's time would still be erasing them across the past present and future since their time is infinite as an immortal being. I already had this discussion the last time someone tried to debunk HGR and it's not really helping your case when we're talking about someone with infinite time on their hands. Also what part of this entire debunk is supposed to debunk Hakumen's time killer being stronger than the boundary? I already explained how it's erasure and not just mere time manipulation, if you're going to ignore the blatant showing of Terumi's body vanishing from existence then you're either not paying attention or ignorant at this point. Ah yes, the time killer, which affected Terumi, a being who resists the boundary's erasure, is totally a featless thing. Fantastic argument. Also nothing about your Hades point is remotely debunking what Hakumen has, she literally has no time in her existence, therefore time killer doesn't work on her, you're not making any arguments here by just explaining how she's unfazed by time killer. No he's clearly referring to himself, not the clone, because he's not there fighting hakumen, therefore Hakumen using time killer means nothing cause he's just fighting a clone relius can easily make again and again, so it's useless to point this out.

Still not existence erasure solid evidence. And yeah, someone's remaining life time, like Terumi, who's immortal, has existence since the dawn of dawn. There's no pointed out limit on Time Killer's time range. You can erase someone's time without affecting their past. The future may have infinite length, but not the past. This is not even erasure anyway. It almost has nothing to do with the Boundary. Hakumen destroys your time and ignores your resistances, that's good. Terumi vanishing is not evidence, and I never said that the Boundary resistance was no feat. The fact that Terumi resists Boundary erasure has little to do with it. You can kill with Time someone who resists basic EE. Hades point literally debunks the fact that Time Killer is literal time. Since Requiem's Intervention affected Hades to some extent, that only means that she's not outside time, and she's not talking about literal time. Since she's not outside history either, Time Killer doesn't erases across history. It makes more sense as Hades do not live but Terumi does. I'm okay about what you say about Relius clone, that wasn't useful to point out.

They're two dimensions connected to each other, so if they didn't have to correct him, then he's right, which shoots your entire argument in the foot. Also what the **** are you talking about "your own interpretation"? There's nothing to interpret, he literally says "everything you ever were" past "and everything you ever could be" future. If this is my own interpretation and not just what the character flat out says, then idk what to tell you other than, it's blatantly obvious what he's talking about. The burden of proof is on you to prove he wasn't talking about historical erasure, because he talks about it being worse than death, and elaborates how it's worse than death.


Congratulations, you didn't read the ******* text, self observation, something terumi did to come back from time killer, which is more powerful than the boundary's EE, is where the High godly feat comes from. Can you actually read the text for once instead of half assing it? Because it's really annoying trying to explain what's literally on the page.

He's literallys stating HIS point of view of the thing. The previous dialogue, Rachel's, literally says how Jubei's statement is no universal truth. And she's not less knowledgeable about the Boundary than Jubei. So yeah, that's no evidence. You have to prove that he's meaning it. The "everything you ever were and everything you ever could be" proves little though, that's just how Roy lost everything, it's almost hyperbolic, supported by nothing.
I have to prove how he wasn't talking about historical erasure when nothing solid even says that ? You are kinda literally chosing HIS interpretation just because that scene ends on his line and because it's convenient for you. Come on now. If anything yeah, the Boundary effects altogether work like EE, but basic one. Your history erasure is just not concrete.

Okay, so HGR is just not valid. The others scale to something not even solid.

Kagami: …Yeah, that's right.
The Takamagahara System was able to catch the readings of 3 people.
But when it went to salvage, it only found you and Raabe. We don't know where Rei is.
Ciel: …No.
No…no, that can't be. How could that be!?
We were in the Boundary! If Rei couldn't be salvaged, then….
Is he (she) still all alone, somewhere in the Boundary?
TB: Normally, his (her) information will fragment and disappear into the Boundary.
Even if he (she) is lucky and is swept into some place's time axis (時間軸 jikanjiku), there's no guarantee he (she) will still be sane.

"fragment and disappear into the Boundary". I fail to see how that's destroying information, that's literally how the Boundary has immense amount of information inside it of information inside it. That's basic information manipulation.

 

[Theglassman12]

@LiveElvinClive Barely any evidence? What do you call Ragna getting wounded then? Because that's evidence right there. Seriously stop trying to beat around the bush and actually debunk my points.

No, you're just blatantly ignoring points from me and Nobody, and just conveniently ignore how Jubei's wounds are caused by magic, which still lingers. Which btw, he has no azure, yet the wound still lingers on, so your entire argument on it being an azure only thing falls flat. This and Kokonoe's statement as well. For a guy who claims to know a lot about Blazblue, you sure do not remember anything about Nine's powers, especially when she has a fire demon in her arsenal and uses fire all the time.

Literally the library, Takamagahara, and other folks who research the boundary prove Jubei's points. How about prove him wrong. Because you do not remotely attempt to prove him wrong. If you cannot prove him wrong then stop arguing this point because you're not winning this debate here.

So it can erase others, congratulations, that's not a contradiction to Jubei's claims. You have to prove he's wrong for his statement to be wrong. That's how things work here, because we can play this game all day with "it could be wrong or right".

Except that informational destruction is the same level of destruction as history erasure, meaning that the level of EE the Boundary is capable of is not proven wrong whatsoever.

What evidence did you remotely bring? Because not a single thing you've posted remotely proves Jubei wrong. You keep saying you proved it wrong but you haven't. And time killer isn't supposedly stronger than the boundary's EE, it IS stronger than the boundary's EE. Terumi's unfazed by the boundary's ability, but time killer worked on him, Time killer is stronger, that's not rocket science, that's basic scaling one-o-one.

It did reset the timeline, they literally were doing the entire events of CT to the point of Nu coming out of the boundary like she did in the first game.

@Metallica_Kane No she clearly wasn't affected by the time freeze. If you bothered continuing the story she literally says it did not work with Kokonoe backing her up.

Prove it's not EE evidence. Just saying it's not doesn't disprove it, you need to bring evidence that it's not EE. Also not only are you proven wrong on the time powers working on Izanami but what you said contradicts everything about the Susanoo unit. Prove it's not actual time it's cutting when we literally see Hakumen cut time in CS and Relius say the Susanoo unit slashes through time itself. At this point I'm convinced you haven't actually played some of the games if you're saying shit like this.

That argument makes no sense, he's literally talking about his wife and friend going into a realm where things far worse than dying happens, what do you mean by "he means it"? He clearly means it when his wife's life is at stake here. Congratulations, focusing on one line and not the other supporting evidence to back up Jubei's claims doesn't disprove anything. Just saying HGR isn't valid isn't enough. Actually give an argument instead of throwing around "it's not enough"

Fragmenting and destroying are the same thing, If you keep making these stupid rebuttals I'm just going to close this thread because nothing you've said has any weight beyond "I don't think it's this".

 

[Nobody234]

I pretty sure that the memory alteration is just one of the effect of the universal reset and the event of the first act is pretty much the entire CT story and Ragna even awake in the same reset point in CT too.

Then we have Kokonoe in the link you posted saying that their memory get rewrite along with the world itself getting rewrite.

Then the in game entry for doomdays literaly state that the world get reset by the event.

So is pretty clear that is not just a memory manip, because the character pretty much went through the event of the first game again starting from the reset point in the first game, the smartest character in the series come to the same conclusion of the world getting reset and even the in game library mode state that the doomdays reset the world.