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Black Clover: Type 8 immortality

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Magicomethkuon said:
No, it's not. The words that you have bolded in fact, support what I have just said.
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They don't, they directly contradict what you said in actuality.

Magicomethkuon said:
A certain being implies another being. A certain object implies it's not part of their body. Place is not them. Concept is not them. Now, we take a look at all the examples in the page:
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No it doesn't inherently 🗿

That's you needlessly extrapolating from the text, "a certain being" doesn't innately imply something independent from another at all, High-ranking devils are reliant on their heats being undamaged to regenerated, that's Type 8, literally every single mod (including those who made/revised the immortality page) will tell you this.

An "object" (which is what devil hearts fall under) doesn't need to be independent from the person they're granting that regeneration towards, so even if you believe "a certain being" innately means independent from another, that wouldn't matter in this instance at all.

Magicomethkuon said:
There is not, matter of fact, a single one of these where the type 8 comes from a body part. And that is accurate for indexing. It would be simply regeneration and/or immortality type 2 if they can survive from just one part of them. Cell from Dragon Ball Z is not given immortality type 8 from surviving and regenerating from just his cellular mass. Homunculi are likewise not granted type eight from having a core as a philosopher stone that they can survive and regenerate from even if the rest of them is vaporized.
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The examples aren't innate contradictions dude, they're just popular examples of Type 8 within media. Cell doesn't have Type 8 because he isn't reliant on an "object, concept, place or certain being" for his continued existence/regenerative capabilities. Homunculi should have Type 8 and i believe @Armorchompy was going to add that down the line but forgot or someshit. Finding examples of characters not having Type 8 on their profiles doesn't negate or debunk the objective fact that Devil Hearts fall perfectly under Type 8.

I don't care about these whataboutisms.
 
ImmortalDread said:
From where did you get this headcanon? Because this is your interpretation and nowhere is stated in immortality type 8.
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Now, now. It is a bit uncalled for to call my argument a headcanon when I was reading it as is, directly from the page. An object is, by definition, "a material thing that can be seen or touched".

The heart of a being is a part of themselves, not an independent object. If a being can stay alive when reduced to a heart and survive from it, that's regeneration, not immortality type 8. I provided examples of that. The premise of the power, as explained in the page, mentions that it is RELIANT on something. Being reliant on something means that it does not come from them.

The funny thing is, effectively speaking, this doesn't change how good their power is or isn't working in vs matches. It's just a matter of reaching a common denominator about what is more accurate to list it as when it comes to indexing.
 
Heart acts independently of body in this series, therefore this is the reason they don't get killed truly. Yes it is headcanon because nowhere in immortality type 8 said that the place of said object because it is simply irrelevant.

Also talking about "vs battles” yes, it is indeed the weakest immortality type 8 I have ever seen, does not change the fact it is still immortality type 8.
 
And also you are using examples once again does not change any fact that you did not disprove Deceived at all. Imagine thinking examples for an ability are the only “the accepted instances” there are tons of other immortality type 8 objects.

Kinda funny, inventing a new guideline, and you say the place of object should be relevant where nowhere it is said to be.
 
Deceived3596 said:
They don't, they directly contradict what you said in actuality.


No it doesn't inherently 🗿

That's you needlessly extrapolating from the text, "a certain being" doesn't innately imply something independent from another at all, High-ranking devils are reliant on their heats being undamaged to regenerated, that's Type 8, literally every single mod (including those who made/revised the immortality page) will tell you this.


The examples aren't innate contradictions dude, they're just popular examples of Type 8 within media. Cell doesn't have Type 8 because he isn't reliant on an "object, concept, place or certain being" for his continued existence/regenerative capabilities. Homunculi should have Type 8 and i believe @Armorchompy was going to add that down the line but forgot or someshit. Finding examples of characters not having Type 8 on their profiles doesn't negate or debunk the objective fact that Devil Hears fall perfectly under Type 8.

I don't care about these whatboutism's.
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Try and take a look at things from both perspectives here. I'm not using semantics. I am not trying to "needlessly extrapolate", when my argument isn't even entirely my own. I'm taking what I read across the wiki and how it operates, then building the point around it.
The examples are contradictions yes because if every last one of them shows something different from the case in point here, the logical conclusion to be made is that this power is meant to be indexed as something different.
You claim the Cell example doesn't work, which puzzles me when matter of fact it does work in very similar ways to the demons here. You have just said he isn't reliant on "an object, concept, place or certain being". Well, neither do the demos seem to be that way. They are surviving and regenerating... From their very own heart.
Finally, please don't try and disregard my point like I just walked in and said something without thinking about it. The word "whataboutisms" is odd to hear when I've followed every word I said with quoting the pages and character indexing of the own wiki, rather than my personal thoughts.
Unless of course, you are telling me now that the wiki likes to contradict itself.
 
Deceived3596 said:
You're talking about shit with complete certainty despite the fact you clearly aren't knowledgeable on the topic.

Stop.
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Or, maybe. Just maybe and hear me out on this. You could remember that this is an indexing site, for fun and stop being all heated because someone does not agree with your opinion, and is calmly taking the time to see if a common denominator can be reached about the subject? Having some maturity about a hobby isn't much to ask for, I hope?
 
ImmortalDread said:
It is not an opinion. He literally shared the ability information here and corrected you.
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It is. I'm not questioning the ability existing. But I can't deny that it looks far more accurate to list it as regeneration and perhaps, type 2 in combination with it. This wouldn't change what it does when it comes to VS Threads and the like. But it would make the indexing purposes more in line with other characters who operate with similar abilities. We could ask staff about it, if an agreement can't be reached between the two parts.
I don't even mind the power, all of my interest is in the accuracy of the profiles. If at the end of the day it does turn out that the wiki would rather have this listed as type 8, I'll find it strange compared to all the other examples but that'll be about it.
 
Magicomethkuon said:
Try and take a look at things from both perspectives here. I'm not using semantics. I am not trying to "needlessly extrapolate", when my argument isn't even entirely my own. I'm taking what I read across the wiki and how it operates, then building the point around it.
The examples are contradictions yes because if every last one of them shows something different from the case in point here, the logical conclusion to be made is that this power is meant to be indexed as something different.
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Both "perspectives" aren't equally valuable here, my perspective is the correct one under this context while yours isn't. You're needlessly extrapolating shit, you're asserting that Type 8 innately requires one's immortality to be completely independent from one's self, which isn't true. They aren't contradictions, at least aren't inherent ones. That's you (again) extrapolating the context behind those examples. Which isn't something you should be doing, they're just popular examples of Type 8 within fiction, everyone who is knowledgeable about Immortality will tell you this. That isn't the logical conclusion, that's your warped perception of why those specific examples are categorized and brought up. Your argument doesn't follow if you actually understood what was being said by the text.

Magicomethkuon said:
You claim the Cell example doesn't work, which puzzles me when matter of fact it does work in very similar ways to the demons here. You have just said he isn't reliant on "an object, concept, place or certain being". Well, neither do the demos seem to be that way. They are surviving and regenerating... From their very own heart.
Finally, please don't try and disregard my point like I just walked in and said something without thinking about it. The word "whataboutisms" is odd to hear when I've followed every word I said with quoting the pages and character indexing of the own wiki, rather than my personal thoughts.
Unless of course, you are telling me now that the wiki likes to contradict itself.
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Cell's regeneration isn't even comparable to Devil's waytb? one isn't reliant on an "object, concept, place or another being" while another is reliant on their devil hearts, an "object" which falls under Type 8. Yes they do? they're reliant on the existence of their hearts, that's explicitly explained in the manga and on the devil physiology page. "their very own hearts" count as Type 8 on our wiki, that isn't a counter against Type 8, that's evidence for Type 8.

I'm going to discard your point because you're fundamentally wrong on this. Actually read our Immortality page again and see more examples of Type 8 on this wiki before barging into a thread and stating misinformation about this topic.

The Immortality page doesn't contradict itself, it contradicts your interpretation of it.
 
The character in question can't be killed as long as his heart exists. This is clear-cut immortality type 8 without any complexity. IF there are any other immortality involved or regeneration, this won't discredit the fact that the character can't be killed unless the heart does not exist.

Also, one staff member already disagreed with this.
 
Magicomethkuon said:
Or, maybe. Just maybe and hear me out on this. You could remember that this is an indexing site, for fun and stop being all heated because someone does not agree with your opinion, and is calmly taking the time to see if a common denominator can be reached about the subject? Having some maturity about a hobby isn't much to ask for, I hope?
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I'm not heated, i'm just being direct with you.
 
Vasco said:
So character who can regenerate from a hair, drop of blood or atom e.t.c should get immortality type 8 right? Since they can't die as long as things like these can make them regenerate back.
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Did I say regeneration? I said existence. The reason of regeneration is irrelevant to their immortality's reason. And yes, if it is stated that you are immortal as long as hair exists, then this is immortality type 8.
 
Vasco said:
So character who can regenerate from a hair, drop of blood or atom e.t.c should get immortality type 8 right? Since they can't die as long as things like these can make them regenerate back.
Click to expand...
If the character is stated to literally being able to regenerate of one single drop of blood that is extremely specific and can be killed if that drop of blood is destroyed without destroying the rest of the body, is inmortality type 8

If not stated, is simply regeneration

If you destroy the devil heart, you kill the devil, if you don´t he just regenerates, if the devil has no mana, it can´t regenerate and is still alive because the heart still exist
 
Yap, well said. There is a difference between regeneration and immortality's reason. So don't confuse both. He can't be truly killed not because he can regenerate, it is due to the fact that heart (which is the reason of his existence) still exists. If you eliminate his heart, he is no longer exists in a conceptual sense.

In other words, heart act as being's source of existence. The regeneration from source is irrelevant. The place of source is also extraneous. It can be in heaven, or it can be in a tree or in his body.
 
Deceived3596 said:
Both "perspectives" aren't equally valuable here, my perspective is the correct one under this context while yours isn't. You're needlessly extrapolating shit, you're asserting that Type 8 innately requires one's immortality to be completely independent from one's self, which isn't true. They aren't contradicts, at least aren't innate ones. That's you (again) extrapolating the context behind those examples. Which isn't something you should be doing, they're just popular examples of Type 8 within fiction, everyone who is knowledgeable about Immortality will tell you this. That isn't the logical conclusion, that's your warped perception of why those specific examples are categorized and brought up. Your argument doesn't innately follow at all.


Cell's regeneration isn't even comparable to Devil's? one isn't reliant on an "object, concept, place or another being" while Devil's are reliant on their devil hearts, an "object" which falls under Type 8. Yes they do? they're reliant on the existence of their hearts, that's explicitly explained in the manga and on the devil physiology page. "their very own hearts" count as Type 8 on our wiki, that isn't a counter against Type 8, that's evidence for Type 8.

I'm going to discard your point because you're fundamentally wrong on this. Actually read our Immortality page again and see more examples of Type 8 on this wiki before barging into a thread and stating misinformation about this topic.

The Immortality page doesn't contradict itself, it contradicts your interpretation of it.
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You see, I'd be happy to agree that your perspective is objectively the correct one as you say, if the things that stopped me from believing it to be so didn't happen to be this wiki's own pages and characters.
"You're needlessly extrapolating shit" ...This kind of wording never adds anything in helping debates be solved. It just steers them towards flame wars. The reason I can't bring myself to agree with your point isn't that I want to or that it is my point. The reason I can't agree is that every source I'm looking for in the wikia's pages points me in the opposite direction of your argument.
So, taking a moment to be in my shoes, from one side I see you, my fellow user telling me that this power is one thing. From the other side I read the pages and every last example I try to find tells me that it is another thing. I will, understandably, be very iffy about whether or not what you are telling me really is within standards of the wiki indexing.
Cell's regeneration isn't even comparable to Devil's? one isn't reliant on an "object, concept, place or another being" while Devil's are reliant on their devil hearts, an "object" which falls under Type 8.
Click to expand...
Both of them are exactly the same thing. One a Heart, the other a cellular mass. Both allow the beings to leave and regenerate so long as said core remains even if the rest of the body is entirely gone. I don't see the difference.
Yes they do? they're reliant on the existence of their hearts, that's explicitly explained in the manga and on the devil physiology page. "their very own hearts" count as Type 8 on our wiki, that isn't a counter against Type 8, that's evidence for Type 8.
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I took this argument to heart as I do want to reach an agreement of some sort here but the problem continued where even the scans that are meant to support type 8 had a basic feat of regeneration from the heart. Where for a lot of other characters, with similar feats of regenerating from minimal parts of their bodies (even far smaller ones), it's just indexed as regeneration. I don't see why this is different.

TL;DR Please stop arguing your point as though in face of it any other perspectives are "fundamentally wrong", or contradicting themselves. I don't want to make this heated but I'm also not interested in constant passive aggressive language.
 
ImmortalDread said:
Yap, well said. There is a difference between regeneration and immortality's reason. So don't confuse both. He can't be truly killed not because he can regenerate, it is due to the fact that heart (which is the reason of his existence) still exists. If you eliminate his heart, he is no longer exists in a conceptual sense.

In other words, heart act as being's source of existence. The regeneration from source is irrelevant. The place of source is also extraneous. It can be in heaven, or it can be in a tree or in his body.
Click to expand...
This actually sounds interesting. Mind posting the scans covering the bolded words, if they haven't been somewhere yet? They could solve the matter in one go depending on what is seen there.
 
Both of them are exactly the same thing. One a Heart, the other a cellular mass. Both allow the beings to leave and regenerate so long as said core remains even if the rest of the body is entirely gone. I don't see the difference.
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This is still immortality type 8. As long as the core exists or remains, this is immortality type 8. They won't truly die if the reliant object of their immortality exists.
At this point, I have no clue what are you trying to suggest? Immortality type 3? Sure, add it with immortality type 8. This won't discredit the other immortality.

Mind me but also be careful of your premise, you said the OP's argument is good because the place of object should be relevant, while nowhere in the page said this. I keep saying it, it is head canon from you.
 
ImmortalDread said:
Did I say regeneration? I said existence. The reason of regeneration is irrelevant to their immortality's reason. And yes, if it is stated that you are immortal as long as hair exists, then this is immortality type 8.
Click to expand...

ImmortalDread said:
The character in question can't be killed as long as his heart exists. This is clear-cut immortality type 8 without any complexity. IF there are any other immortality involved or regeneration, this won't discredit the fact that the character can't be killed unless the heart does not exist.

Also, one staff member already disagreed with this.
Click to expand...
So a character that can't be killed as long as part of his being exists should get immortality type 8 since they can't be killed as long as part of them exists and not just the heart, could be any thing even an atom from that body. I hope you understand what i am trying to say.
 
Magicomethkuon said:
Both of them are exactly the same thing. One a Heart, the other a cellular mass. Both allow the beings to leave and regenerate so long as said core remains even if the rest of the body is entirely gone. I don't see the difference.
Click to expand...
I will only talk about Cell because he is supposed to have an special core but that is extremely vague and inconsistent, because if the core is destroyed he just dies? Then why Goku instant kamehameha did not work? Why Gohan had to destroy EVERYTHING from him to kill it instead of focusing in the specific Core?

And don´t tell me "Cell can move the core" because is never stated, this is Toriyama own mess as a writer, for that sole reason, Cell does not have the same requirements as a Devil Heart to be considered "type 8"
 
Arkenis said:
Get off the internet if being called stupid is a problem.
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Oh no as a matter of fact, it is not. It just makes you look like a douche and adds nothing to the conversation, especially when it comes to debating. It also doesn't make a good case for your maturity and can result in a rule violations notice if it escalates.
 
Magicomethkuon said:
This actually sounds interesting. Mind posting the scans covering the bolded words, if they haven't been somewhere yet? They could solve the matter in one go depending on what is seen there.
Click to expand...
The bolded parts are clarifying if you can't comprehend how the heart acts. I think saying the heart acts as existence source may clarify the misunderstanding. It should not be stated explicitly, it should go in this direction.
 
Magicomethkuon said:
By constantly calling the person talking to you stupid in varying degrees of passive aggressive language, and treating your own opinion like factual truth, over a simple everyday thread, yes. Fun talk, anyways.
Click to expand...
I'm not being passive aggressive, nothing about what i'm saying is in a passive aggressive tone, i'm not a person to do passive aggressive shit.

If i want to call you a ******* idiot, i'll call you a ******* idiot directly to you. Don't mistake me being direct with you meaning i'm being passive aggressive, because i'm not.

Also my opinion is factual truth under the context we're speaking on. It just is.
 
Vasco said:
So a character that can't be killed as long as part of his being exists should get immortality type 8 since they can't be killed as long as part of them exists and not just the heart, could be any thing even an atom from that body. I hope you understand what i am trying to say.
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Any object, any concept. Anything, it could even be a nonexistent concept. As long as the said object their immortality reliant on it, it is immortality type 8.
Don't confuse it with regeneration. This is a different topic.
 
ImmortalDread said:
Any object, any concept. Anything, it could even be a nonexistent concept. As long as the said object their immortality reliant on it, it is immortality type 8.
Don't confuse it with regeneration. This is a different topic.
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Yeah I get that from the immortality page but this guys heart is what the reliant immortality is on what about other characters who can return with not just their heart but any part of their body at all even from an atom.
 
Kazuma_kuwabara said:
I will only talk about Cell because he is supposed to have an special core but that is extremely vague and inconsistent, because if the core is destroyed he just dies? Then why Goku instant kamehameha did not work? Why Gohan had to destroy EVERYTHING from him to kill it instead of focusing in the specific Core?

And don´t tell me "Cell can move the core" because is never stated, this is Toriyama own mess as a writer, for that sole reason, Cell does not have the same requirements as a Devil Heart to be considered "type 8"
Click to expand...
These are fair points, as I don't believe either of them qualify. So I don't need to back up Cell having type 8 Immortality. I very much agree he has insufficient points for having immortality type 8: And I believe the demons are similar in that regard. Better indexed as regeneration and perhaps, type 2 alog with it.
 
Magicomethkuon said:
Oh no as a matter of fact, it is not. It just makes you look like a douche and adds nothing to the conversation, especially when it comes to debating. It also doesn't make a good case for your maturity and can result in a rule violations notice if it escalates.
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You're allowing it to escalate from a simple "stupid" to an issue that isn't needed. But go off chief
 
Vasco said:
Yeah I get that from the immortality page but this guys heart is what the reliant immortality is on what about other characters who can return with not just their heart but any part of their body at all even from an atom.
Click to expand...
If I understand correctly, “turn” means getting regenerated? If, then, yes, it is just a godly form of regeneration.
 
Deceived3596 said:
I'm not being passive aggressive, nothing about what i'm saying is in a passive aggressive tone, i'm not a person to do passive aggressive shit.

If i want to call you a ******* idiot, i'll call you a ******* idiot directly to you. Don't mistake me being direct with you meaning i'm being passive aggressive, because i'm not.

Also my opinion is factual truth under the context we're speaking on. It just is.
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This is what I call making having a conversation difficult. Oh, well. I'll go ahead and ask a few staff about what the wiki gauges this stuff like, this is clearly running circles.
 
Vasco said:
So a character that can't be killed as long as part of his being exists should get immortality type 8 since they can't be killed as long as part of them exists and not just the heart, could be any thing even an atom from that body. I hope you understand what i am trying to say.
Click to expand...
Nope, it's just regeneration. Regenerating from atoms =/= Your existence is reliant on certain parts of the bodies or objects or concepts.
 
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