Black Clover Speed Upgrade (Elf/Spade) CRT

[BlackAstaSenpai]

A few months back, this CRT passed which led to a massive downgrade to the speed meta. There were some things that I do agree with about the thread. One being that the black clover speed range was too high for the site’s standards. One emphasis of the thread was that Light Magic is the Speed cap until the end of the Spade Saga when Lucifero and TDU Asta surpass it (except for Dark Elf Patry). One of the major reasons being a narrative one, in that Light Magic “is the fastest”. This is a weak argument and further context would add massive contradictions to the entire series. Not only that, but I have proof that other characters in the series are FTL decently early.


The idea of Light Magic being the fastest is purely a narrative argument. FTL and FTL+ calculations were rejected purely because of this. Here’s why putting Light Magic on this pedestal is wrong. In Patry’s fight with Yami, Patry says: “However, Dark Magic is extremely slow. Light Magic has absolute speed. In that way as well, they’re polar opposites.” Patry directly compares the speed of Dark and Light Magic as polar opposites. This would mean, by the logic of the current standing on the site, Dark Magic must always be the slowest magic. Which would be patently absurd. I don’t think I need to show scans of Yami and Ichika (Both Dark Magic users) being some of the faster characters in the series. Even when Rhya copies Dark Magic, we can still see him move relatively on par with the other Third Eye. This statement supports the old standing we had on the wiki, that Light Magic is the fastest attribute. Meaning if you took two mages where everything about them was equal (magic power, level of spells, Etc.), but one had Light Magic and the other had Lightning Magic, the Light Mage would be faster, as would their spells. But that doesn’t mean a Light Mage is always faster than a Wind Mage, for example. Like when Yuno was actually fast enough to dodge Patry and Rhya’s Light, or even move fast enough to save Patry and Rhya from Patry’s Reflected Light.


Furthermore, there are feats that pretty clearly show that other characters are FTL, by being faster than Patry or DEP. When Asta fights Dark Elf Patry, he is able to consistently react to him. Over the timeskip, Asta’s power would have grown a lot, as well as his speed. While the site no longer accepts a linear relationship between power and speed growths in BC, it still accepts that a power increase does lead to some sort of speed increase as that is incredibly consistent. Asta by the time of the Spade Saga would be faster than the version of himself that could react to DEP, likely far faster. This is supported by the Anime-Canon. When Asta first goes to the Heart Kingdom, he struggles with Gaja’s speed, even though he is suppressing himself to help train Asta. Later in the training, Asta is actually able to hit Gaja who is serious. (Note: it is later revealed that Gaja didn’t actually use his full power here, but it should signify that he at least raised his power to partially honor Asta’s request to not hold back). That scene is still only halfway into the 6 months training with the heart kingdom. When Asta fights Dante, not only can Asta not even react to his opponent flying right past him, but the tracking of the anti-magic hasn’t even repositioned despite him being well past him. I don’t think there is anyway to say that Dark Elf Patry is faster than Base Dante here.

Finally, in the anime canon, Yami goes off to the grand magic region to train with Mereoleona. At this point, he has a simple Mana Zone that he hopes to master. While fighting Mereoleona, Yami thinks that she is so fast that he cannot even track her with Ki. It is later revealed that this Mereoleona isn’t even serious, implying this wouldn’t be her full speed either. This is pretty damning because Yami long before this, could pretty easily track Patry’s Light Magic with Ki. What makes it even more impressive is that Yami is actually now using Mana Zone. Which we know boosts the sensory abilities of the creator. So, a Yami with far better sensing than he did against Patry CANNOT sense a holding-back Mereoleona’s ki because of her raw speed. This isn’t even Hellfire Mereoleona either. This also 3 months before the Spade Saga, we know both Yami and Mereo get way stronger and faster after this moment with their continued training.

One more thing, the idea that it would break the narrative because of Julius scaling. I understand the sentiment and the reasoning, but it’s absurd. The whole point of the last thread was to break the linear link between speed and power, yet the argument for capping the majority of the verse at light speed was because Julius is the “STRONGEST” Magic Knight? Meaning that he has to be the fastest and therefore, nobody can be LS or FTL. Which is a contradiction of the entire point of the previous CRT. Either we accept that Julius was holding back, or we accept that he was really never the strongest/fastest magic knight. When BASE Patry launches light spells at Julius, he needs to catch them all. When ELF Patry AND Elf Rhya launch light spells at Yuno, he can actually physically move to dodge them all and this isn’t even the fastest version of Yuno in the elf arc. Julius only fights a BASE Patry. Nozel fights and defeats Dark Elf Patry. There are numerous statements that elf versions of characters are considerably more powerful and faster than their human counterparts. Elf Patry >> Base Patry. Remember that Yuno could dodge Elf Patry’s light pretty easily, but despite an awakening in his spirit dive, couldn't dodge all of DEP’s Demon Light. DEP > Elf Patry >> Base Patry. Not only that, but DEP gets even stronger thanks to the negative mana rage boosts and that is the version that Nozel fights. The Patry that Julius fought, and the one that Nozel fought are incomparable. Sure, Nozel had the elemental advantage, but the majority of elemental advantages are only significant based on power. Fire is an advantage on ice but Magna said he was too weak for it to matter. Darkness is an advantage over light, but Yami didn’t believe his defensive spell would hold up against Patry’s strongest light spell. Yami’s defensive spell with an elemental advantage couldn’t withstand ray of divine punishment, but Nozel’s casual Mercury (Not an actual spell) could go against Patry’s Demon Light. This should signify a power similarity despite there being an elemental advantage involved. Not only was Nozel’s Mercury able to withstand the reflection of DEP’s attack, but he is calced to have moved faster as well in this calc. So not only did Nozel fight a much stronger Patry, but he actually moved faster as well. Also, this site has The Third Eye as stronger than Patry. Spirit Ladros is stronger than Fana, a Third Eye Member, and he couldn’t kill Asta. Yet Base Patry can damage Julius even though he has a mana zone active, which is the highest form of reinforcement magic, and literally an advancement of Mana Skin. Let’s also not forget that it’s implied the Third Eye are a lot stronger than Patry. Fana gets a lot stronger, signified by her Spirit growing, gets her Third Eye form, and then Spirit Ladros is above all that but cannot kill Asta with multiple hits. Asta even before the elf arc has better feats than Julius. So again, no matter how we look at it, using Julius to nerf the speed scaling does not work. Either he’s not the strongest or he's always holding back. Either he really wasn’t the strongest magic knight, or he was being held back. (Even Valtos thought a holding back Yami in the Cave was nearly as strong as Julius)

Another pretty damning feat for Julius not being the strongest: Base Patry damages A Mana Zone Julius. Whereas Dark Elf Patry couldn't even actually damage Black Form Asta with multiple attacks. Both Julius and Asta here are using their own versions of reinforcement magic. There are simply too many feats of Asta being superior to Julius to consider him the strongest.

With that being said, the old FTL/FTL+ calcs should be reinstated, allowing for more characters to be FTL in the Elf/Spade. And any character not given LS/FTL ratings purely because of the narrative behind Light Magic should as well. The narrative argument of light magic always being the fastest is contradicted by dark magic inherently always being the slowest because it is the polar opposite in speed, as stated by a Light Mage. Then, this is further supported by a casual Mereoleona going well beyond light speed in order to not be tracked by Yami’s amped Ki and the various other feats.

So can we finally stop saying that Dark Elf Patry in the Elf Arc is faster than Devil Union Asta in the Spade Saga?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Thank you for addressing this, I haven’t had the time.

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

Thank you for addressing this, I haven’t had the time.

same, I wanted to do this earlier but, college!

 

[Epsilon_R]

Pretty sure I've mentioned most of these points in the previous crt, except the Anime Canon Arc ones, so I obviously agree.

Spirit Dive Yuno outperforming Julius in speed by effortlessly dodging light magic attacks while Julius needed Future Sight and Teleportation to actually dodge half of what Yuno was up against, was already a red flag for Julius to not be the fastest character in the Elf Arc. But adding Mereoleona into the mix makes it even more problematic for the speed cap to be sub-SoL up until the end of the Spade Arc

I agree.

 

[Lynieryz]

I'm neutral, is there any way to quantify the scaling chain in relation to speed? If not, it will just be that X is faster than Y and it will mean basically nothing in speed values.[Just to make it clear, my comment is about the scaling chain influencing the speed value and not about it being used to remove the reason why calculations above FTL cannot currently be used]

 

[Epsilon_R]

I'm neutral, is there any way to quantify the scaling chain in relation to speed? If not, it will just be that X is faster than Y and it will mean basically nothing in speed values.[Just to make it clear, my comment is about the scaling chain influencing the speed value and not about it being used to remove the reason why calculations above FTL cannot currently be used]

Sorry, I don't quite understand what you mean (maybe cuz it's 3 am)

are you asking if the speed tiers will change regardless of the calcs? If so then yes, as Mereoleona is allegedly faster than a character stated to move at SoL.

 

[Lynieryz]

Sorry, I don't quite understand what you mean (maybe cuz it's 3 am)

are you asking if the speed tiers will change regardless of the calcs? If so then yes, as Mereoleona is allegedly faster than a character stated to move at SoL.

It's about having some way of quantifying the difference in characters' speed outside the scaling for different calculations. For example, TDU Asta is faster than Lucifero but they both scale at the same speed value, is there a way to quantify the speed difference between them?

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

I added another point to the OP. Asta taking a much stronger attack from Dark Elf Patry and suffering less damage. Whereas Julius had his chest split open from a single attack. Both have defensive powers activated, Asta- Black Form Julius-Mana Zone.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

It's about having some way of quantifying the difference in characters' speed outside the scaling for different calculations. For example, TDU Asta is faster than Lucifero but they both scale at the same speed value, is there a way to quantify the speed difference between them?

No but the multipliers (when added correctly) were going to do that. We’ll talk about this another time.

 

[Killerdrone123]

At first glance this looks good

 

[KingTempest]

This is so sad, and the worst part is that there are knowledgeable members agreeing with this even though they know with all their heart that the arguments aren't correct cause they've used this against me before.

Now before staff who know little about this verse come and agree, I'll break down the actual points.

The idea of Light Magic being the fastest is purely a narrative argument. FTL and FTL+ calculations were rejected purely because of this. Here’s why putting Light Magic on this pedestal is wrong. In Patry’s fight with Yami, Patry says: “However, Dark Magic is extremely slow. Light Magic has absolute speed. In that way as well, they’re polar opposites.” Patry directly compares the speed of Dark and Light Magic as polar opposites. This would mean, by the logic of the current standing on the site, Dark Magic must always be the slowest magic. Which would be patently absurd. I don’t think I need to show scans of Yami and Ichika (Both Dark Magic users) being some of the faster characters in the series. Even when Rhya copies Dark Magic, we can still see him move relatively on par with the other Third Eye. This statement supports the old standing we had on the wiki, that Light Magic is the fastest attribute. Meaning if you took two mages where everything about them was equal (magic power, level of spells, Etc.), but one had Light Magic and the other had Lightning Magic, the Light Mage would be faster, as would their spells. But that doesn’t mean a Light Mage is always faster than a Wind Mage, for example. Like when Yuno was actually fast enough to dodge Patry and Rhya’s Light, or even move fast enough to save Patry and Rhya from Patry’s Reflected Light.

It's been accepted for forever that Dark Magic is slow as absolute shit.
It's also been accepted that that wouldn't cap Yami's speed, as instead of Yami shooting out slow ass dark magic attacks, he cloaks his blade with magic and utilizes his own speed, which is well above the slow ass dark magic speed.

It's like instead of me throwing a heavy ball at you and let it fly through the air slow as hell, I carry it with me and run up to you and hit you with it.

Characters in this series aren't limited by the speed of their magic. Characters can have LS magic and relativistic physicals, or MHS+ magic and FTL physicals. Using characters' physicals as a counter is just blatantly wrong.

And your literal only scans of them keeping up with light is for the light attacks that were shown and proven to not be the same speed as their fastest light magic, which is lightspeed

Furthermore, there are feats that pretty clearly show that other characters are FTL, by being faster than Patry or DEP. When Asta fights Dark Elf Patry, he is able to consistently react to him. Over the timeskip, Asta’s power would have grown a lot, as well as his speed. While the site no longer accepts a linear relationship between power and speed growths in BC, it still accepts that a power increase does lead to some sort of speed increase as that is incredibly consistent. Asta by the time of the Spade Saga would be faster than the version of himself that could react to DEP, likely far faster. This is supported by the Anime-Canon. When Asta first goes to the Heart Kingdom, he struggles with Gaja’s speed, even though he is suppressing himself to help train Asta. Later in the training, Asta is actually able to hit Gaja who is serious. (Note: it is later revealed that Gaja didn’t actually use his full power here, but it should signify that he at least raised his power to partially honor Asta’s request to not hold back). That scene is still only halfway into the 6 months training with the heart kingdom. When Asta fights Dante, not only can Asta not even react to his opponent flying right past him, but the tracking of the anti-magic hasn’t even repositioned despite him being well past him. I don’t think there is anyway to say that Dark Elf Patry is faster than Base Dante here.

You can react to things faster than you.
On top of that, they never directly react and/or keep up with light in close distances, which would grant LS reactions/speed

Finally, in the anime canon, Yami goes off to the grand magic region to train with Mereoleona. At this point, he has a simple Mana Zone that he hopes to master. While fighting Mereoleona, Yami thinks that she is so fast that he cannot even track her with Ki. It is later revealed that this Mereoleona isn’t even serious, implying this wouldn’t be her full speed either. This is pretty damning because Yami long before this, could pretty easily track Patry’s Light Magic with Ki. What makes it even more impressive is that Yami is actually now using Mana Zone. Which we know boosts the sensory abilities of the creator. So, a Yami with far better sensing than he did against Patry CANNOT sense a holding-back Mereoleona’s ki because of her raw speed. This isn’t even Hellfire Mereoleona either. This also 3 months before the Spade Saga, we know both Yami and Mereo get way stronger and faster after this moment with their continued training.

The same light magic that's not accepted to be lightspeed, which is directly declined from being lightspeed.
That same Yami who could "easily track Patry's light magic with Ki" is the same one who was confirmed by Patry and Yami that he wouldn't be able to avoid it

After Yami was dealing with varying speeds of light swords and light magic, Patry says that his stated lightspeed attack is "speed he'll never avoid".
That stretches to Patry himself too, since he couldn't avoid it.
So yeah, that isn't lightspeed either.

So no.

One more thing, the idea that it would break the narrative because of Julius scaling. I understand the sentiment and the reasoning, but it’s absurd. The whole point of the last thread was to break the linear link between speed and power, yet the argument for capping the majority of the verse at light speed was because Julius is the “STRONGEST” Magic Knight? Meaning that he has to be the fastest and therefore, nobody can be LS or FTL. Which is a contradiction of the entire point of the previous CRT. Either we accept that Julius was holding back, or we accept that he was really never the strongest/fastest magic knight. When BASE Patry launches light spells at Julius, he needs to catch them all. When ELF Patry AND Elf Rhya launch light spells at Yuno, he can actually physically move to dodge them all and this isn’t even the fastest version of Yuno in the elf arc. Julius only fights a BASE Patry. Nozel fights and defeats Dark Elf Patry. There are numerous statements that elf versions of characters are considerably more powerful and faster than their human counterparts. Elf Patry >> Base Patry. Remember that Yuno could dodge Elf Patry’s light pretty easily, but despite an awakening in his spirit dive, couldn't dodge all of DEP’s Demon Light. DEP > Elf Patry >> Base Patry. Not only that, but DEP gets even stronger thanks to the negative mana rage boosts and that is the version that Nozel fights. The Patry that Julius fought, and the one that Nozel fought are incomparable. Sure, Nozel had the elemental advantage, but the majority of elemental advantages are only significant based on power. Fire is an advantage on ice but Magna said he was too weak for it to matter. Darkness is an advantage over light, but Yami didn’t believe his defensive spell would hold up against Patry’s strongest light spell. Yami’s defensive spell with an elemental advantage couldn’t withstand ray of divine punishment, but Nozel’s casual Mercury (Not an actual spell) could go against Patry’s Demon Light. This should signify a power similarity despite there being an elemental advantage involved. Not only was Nozel’s Mercury able to withstand the reflection of DEP’s attack, but he is calced to have moved faster as well in this calc. So not only did Nozel fight a much stronger Patry, but he actually moved faster as well. Also, this site has The Third Eye as stronger than Patry. Spirit Ladros is stronger than Fana, a Third Eye Member, and he couldn’t kill Asta. Yet Base Patry can damage Julius even though he has a mana zone active, which is the highest form of reinforcement magic, and literally an advancement of Mana Skin. Let’s also not forget that it’s implied the Third Eye are a lot stronger than Patry. Fana gets a lot stronger, signified by her Spirit growing, gets her Third Eye form, and then Spirit Ladros is above all that but cannot kill Asta with multiple hits. Asta even before the elf arc has better feats than Julius. So again, no matter how we look at it, using Julius to nerf the speed scaling does not work. Either he’s not the strongest or he's always holding back. Either he really wasn’t the strongest magic knight, or he was being held back. (Even Valtos thought a holding back Yami in the Cave was nearly as strong as Julius)

You're just throwing a bunch of sentences together.

You bring up attack potency in a speed thread.

Julius is being brought up because at that time, Julius was being compared to Lucius, who kept up with Black Asta who was far above those characters at that time.
He's also currently accepted to be the strongest and the peak magician, which isn't contradicted by your whataboutisms.

On top of that, you do realize elemental advantages work against each other right? You bring up elemental advantages when it helps (darkness supposed to be > light but light would've shat on darkness defenses) but you ignore it when Mercury can deflect light based off of an elemental advantage

Another pretty damning feat for Julius not being the strongest: Base Patry damages A Mana Zone Julius. Whereas Dark Elf Patry couldn't even actually damage Black Form Asta with multiple attacks. Both Julius and Asta here are using their own versions of reinforcement magic. There are simply too many feats of Asta being superior to Julius to consider him the strongest.

So "person is capable of hurting this character" vs "person would've hurt this character if not for hax massively mitigating the strength of their attacks".

With that being said, the old FTL/FTL+ calcs should be reinstated, allowing for more characters to be FTL in the Elf/Spade. And any character not given LS/FTL ratings purely because of the narrative behind Light Magic should as well. The narrative argument of light magic always being the fastest is contradicted by dark magic inherently always being the slowest because it is the polar opposite in speed, as stated by a Light Mage. Then, this is further supported by a casual Mereoleona going well beyond light speed in order to not be tracked by Yami’s amped Ki and the various other feats.

So can we finally stop saying that Dark Elf Patry in the Elf Arc is faster than Devil Union Asta in the Spade Saga?

The whole OP was pathetic.
And I don't mean that in a hostile way, I'm saying that to someone (you) who had been in every thread noting why it's wrong, yet you make a thread as packed as this that's just full of a bunch of smushed together sentences saying "why not" while ignoring almost every point the other threads made.

Half of your arguments are "they dodge light here" when it's light that's declined from lightspeed.
The other half is "speed can't be restricted cause AP yadayada he's the strongest but he's hurt" and ignoring context

 

[PrinceofPein]

Disagree FRA

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Seems like KT’s points from his previous Bc thread were dragged into this. I was referring to the last speed thread, I blame @CloverDragon03.

I’ll take a closer look at this not just becuz KT is on my ass on discord rn

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Okay I’ve looked at this closely

I initially agreed because the OP was targetting arguments made in a previous thread on why two FTL+ calc weren’t used. I still agree with most of the OP but not all of it. Here is what I agree with and disagree with.

---

Below is a quote from CloverDragon’s thread that I thought this thread was addressing:

I know this will be a common question, so I'd like to preemptively head off that first. Simply put: I don't believe they should be used, as they contradict Black Clover's narrative. To begin with, one of the calcs is the same Nozel feat I've linked here, so there's that. But also, Light Magic is treated within Black Clover as the ultimate magic in speed, establishing light speed as a hard cap for the verse for some time. I say some time because light speed does get surpassed later, but I'll get to that in a bit. In additon, there's the matter of Julius Novachrono. Julius admits inferiority in speed to Light Magic, which moves at the speed of light. Julius even admits that despite anticipating into the future via Time Magic, he can't catch Patry, who moves at the speed of light. As such, Julius cannot be scaled above light speed. The thing is, though... Julius, as the Wizard King, is superior to all the other Magic Knights at the time.

I disagree with Julius’ superiority to other magic knights being a basis for their speed.

Like @KingTempest said above me:

You bring up attack potency in a speed thread.

This was the same sentiment I had in the last speed thread. (It turns out it wasn’t the entire thread that was dealing with this logic but most of it was)

The two FTL+ calcs has no connection to Julius whatsoever. In fact, One of those FTL+ calcs is based on a magic knight captain who fought a character who was narratively stated to be wayyy faster than his previous self who fought Julius. This fact was also mentioned in @KingTempest’s crt and it was fine.

So the argument that “Julius is superior so he’s fastest” simply does not work. And I still thank the OP for their argument against it.

---

Now here’s probably why KT is going off rn,

KT saw a portion of this OP that attacked his own thread on BC’s speed. So I understand if he took this entire thread as an argument to his own thread. I understand why he probably thought this thread was entirely dogshit because most of the arguments here wouldn’t look coherent if this thread mainly was about addressing KT’s thread.. I understand the confusion because Clover’s thread also made comments very similar to KT’s thread but instead of ending at Julius like KT did, he somehow used that as an argument to remove two FTL+ calcs.

I should’ve made it clear that I disagree with the portion of the OP (see below) that attacked KT’s previous argument:

The idea of Light Magic being the fastest is purely a narrative argument. FTL and FTL+ calculations were rejected purely because of this. Here’s why putting Light Magic on this pedestal is wrong. In Patry’s fight with Yami, Patry says: “However, Dark Magic is extremely slow. Light Magic has absolute speed. In that way as well, they’re polar opposites.” Patry directly compares the speed of Dark and Light Magic as polar opposites. This would mean, by the logic of the current standing on the site, Dark Magic must always be the slowest magic. Which would be patently absurd. I don’t think I need to show scans of Yami and Ichika (Both Dark Magic users) being some of the faster characters in the series. Even when Rhya copies Dark Magic, we can still see him move relatively on par with the other Third Eye. This statement supports the old standing we had on the wiki, that Light Magic is the fastest attribute. Meaning if you took two mages where everything about them was equal (magic power, level of spells, Etc.), but one had Light Magic and the other had Lightning Magic, the Light Mage would be faster, as would their spells. But that doesn’t mean a Light Mage is always faster than a Wind Mage, for example. Like when Yuno was actually fast enough to dodge Patry and Rhya’s Light, or even move fast enough to save Patry and Rhya from Patry’s Reflected Light.

Light magic is innately the fastest magic and Dark Magic is innately the slowest. That is true. However mages can amp their own magic or their physicals to surpass such speeds. Although this was actually not shown to happen until later in the story around the middle of Elf Reincarnation Arc when mages like Nozel had gotten fast enough to throw hands with Dark Elf Patry who is faster than the Patry who fought Julius and Yami.

The FTL calcs that were made for mages who fought Patry should not be reinstated. Those were nuked by KT’s thread, not CloverDragon’s.

 

[Worthless]

I can't believe the main argument for why the previous speed scaling got nuked is because light is considered an absolute, unsurpassable, the fastest magic there is within the in the elf saga, despite there being hundreds of tons of evidence showcasing the opposite.

You can literally just drop water, fire, wind, and so on, tagging individuals who can use lightning and light magic, which should tell you that every element can be as fast and faster than the supposed fastest or strongest element when enough magic is applied.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Agree with King for now, but holding on to my vote.

 

[Joshyyy_64]

Following

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

This is so sad, and the worst part is that there are knowledgeable members agreeing with this even though they know with all their heart that the arguments aren't correct cause they've used this against me before.

Now before staff who know little about this verse come and agree, I'll break down the actual points.

Lol.

It's been accepted for forever that Dark Magic is slow as absolute shit.
It's also been accepted that that wouldn't cap Yami's speed, as instead of Yami shooting out slow ass dark magic attacks, he cloaks his blade with magic and utilizes his own speed, which is well above the slow ass dark magic speed.

This is where you come in and obfuscate my point. The issue is that Patry is putting it at literally the slowest of magics. Which would be contradicted as I outlined. Yami makes Dark Magic fast because of his physicals. Rhya, is not physically strong, he didn't make the top 11. Yet Rhya, according to your logic, is using the slowest element in the verse, and somehow is able to fight Charlotte, who is comparable to Yami. Or when Rhya casts both Dark and light magic at the (Verbatim) same time, and is somehow able to make it move close in speeds to the light magic despite not having the physicals like Yami.

And your literal only scans of them keeping up with light is for the light attacks that were shown and proven to not be the same speed as their fastest light magic, which is lightspeed

You can react to things faster than you.
On top of that, they never directly react and/or keep up with light in close distances, which would grant LS reactions/speed

The same light magic that's not accepted to be lightspeed, which is directly declined from being lightspeed.
That same Yami who could "easily track Patry's light magic with Ki" is the same one who was confirmed by Patry and Yami that he wouldn't be able to avoid it

Yami is predicting where Patry is going with his movement spell. It quite literally says in the scan that Yami can read Patry's Ki. You are bringing "keeping up" when I said READING Ki. You Bring "reactions" when I am saying that he cannot READ THE KI. "Avoiding" does not equal reading Ki. Asta could READ Ladros' Ki, but he couldn't actually move fast enough to react to it.


And it doesn't matter what light spell it is. You cannot have Light Magic as the absolute speed of the verse and then only apply it to certain spells.

Let's look at the context of the statements referring to the statements used in the CRTs that imply Light Magic is the fastest.


Patry launches the LIGHT SWORDS at Julius, and Julius blocks them with his time magic. Note: these swords are not accepted as light speed, and considered slower than Patry's light speed abilities.

"Light magic is the fastest there is, but that doesn't mean it can't be blocked." Julius is literally referring to Light Magic. He's NOT referring to the Light speed spells. Light Magic in general. In fact, he's directly referring to the light swords that can be blocked.

The other context is that Yami had just countered one of Patry's attacks that are NOT accepted to be light speed. Yami then counters one of Patry's Spells that is NOT accepted to be light speed and lands a devastating blow.

“However, Dark Magic is extremely slow. Light Magic has absolute speed. In that way as well, they’re polar opposites.” Again, Patry is literally referring to "Light Magic". He's NOT referring directly to the accepted light speed spells. "Light Magic" in general.

When Julius first encounters Light Magic he says:

"Light Magic faster than mine..." If Light Magic has absolute speed, why does he need to say this? If Light Magic is already the fastest then that's implied. I understand characters are allowed to say redundant things. But it does put the validity of the claims into question.

It's weird that it is "Light Magic" that is stated to be the fastest magic but only the specific light spells in the wiki are used as the actual prop to downgrade the speed of the verse. What WOULD hold weight is if the movement spell or RODP were claimed to be the fastest spell in the series. Which they are not. Light Magic in totality is referred to as the fastest magic.

Or are we also going to say that ALL Light spells are also the strongest in the verse and cap the verse's AP to light magic users? Its very obvious in context that Light Magic is referred to as the fastest/strongest element. NOT that it is the cap. Characters are consistently faster than light magic without having light magic.

You set the cliff at Julius because HE SAID "Light magic" is the fastest magic. So when I show examples of Light Magic being outsped, that proves the argument wrong. Light Magic is often outsped and that is an objective fact.

I get the reasoning for some calcs to be rejected due to the light swords. But in the calculation where Nozel's magic moves faster than Patry's Swords, those swords are moving faster than Patry during his movement spell, which makes them at least Light speed. That is an accepted calc that was thrown out because of the BS light magic narrative. There would also be a lot of characters getting FTL by having speed scaling to Base Mereoleona. Again, reading Ki is different from reacting. Mereoleona was moving fast enough so that Yami could not read hers. That would make a lot of characters FTL in Spade.

If Yami never had issues reading Patry's Ki even though he used his movement spell multiple times in that fight, but he cannot read Mereoleona's Ki, that makes her FTL. Even in the context of the fights, Yami is never really pressed at Patry's speed. Sure, he recognizes Patry is fast. But he's in shock and gushes over Mereoleona's speed. Patry's speed is never an issue for Yami, only the Ray of Divine Punishment because of it's power, size, AND speed.

So no.

You're just throwing a bunch of sentences together.

You bring up attack potency in a speed thread.

Let me spell it out for you why I brought up attack potency in the speed thread. Julius is considered the peak. The strongest. Therefore, if he struggles with light speed, nobody else can be. Yet people with weak AP are damaging him despite having high-level reinforcement. Said character got stronger and damaged another character, a character, that wasn't Julius. Which means he isn't the strongest. Below you say that Julius is being compared to Lucius even though it's literally their strength.

Julius is being brought up because at that time, Julius was being compared to Lucius, who kept up with Black Asta who was far above those characters at that time.
He's also currently accepted to be the strongest and the peak magician, which isn't contradicted by your whataboutisms.

Okay let's look at the statement. Oh.... "I'm stronger than Julius, You know." I thought being stronger didn't mean "faster." Otherwise, we might as well just rescale the Third Eye to FTL since they are all stronger than Patry.

Somehow we're expected to believe that Base Patry can damage Base Lucius (whose stronger than Lucifero), since he could damage Julius who is compared to him. Even though Base Patry is fodder to Licht, who would be fodder to the sapde arc captains, who couldn't even scratch a suppressed Lucifero that would be far weaker than Lucius.

On top of that, you do realize elemental advantages work against each other right? You bring up elemental advantages when it helps (darkness supposed to be > light but light would've shat on darkness defenses) but you ignore it when Mercury can deflect light based off of an elemental advantage

If you had actually paid attention to the thread, you would have seen that I addressed this. Nozel has the advantage but his magic still needs to be strong enough to withstand it. Elemental advantages help a mage but they can be overpowered. It's like how Nozel and Fuegoleon have comparable power but even though Mercury is weak to flames it doesn't allow Fuegoleon to completely overwhelm him. If Nozel's Mercury can reflect the light with no signs of struggle then his power would just scale to Patry. The site already has accepted that Nozel scales to him. Somehow you think Nozel scales to Dark Elf Patry, but is weaker than Julius who can easily be damaged by a Base Patry.

So "person is capable of hurting this character" vs "person would've hurt this character if not for hax massively mitigating the strength of their attacks".

It's almost like, Anti-Magic has to be as strong as the magic it negates because it doesn't negate the force. Cutting magic is hax, countering its force is what is scaleable to Asta. Something that we've acknowledged for years now. Which is why Asta has any AP or Durability scaling despite having Anti-Magic. So, yes, this is a more impressive durability feat for Asta than Julius and it's not even close. What's even funnier is that Asta WITHOUT Black Form tanks attacks from characters who dwarf Patry's AP. It's accepted that Base Asta scales above Third Eye form Rhya because he tanked Mereo's attack and Rhya didn't and needed to heal. It's already accepted Patry << Base Rhya < Third Eye Rhya on site. That's more impressive than Julius.

The whole OP was pathetic.
And I don't mean that in a hostile way, I'm saying that to someone (you) who had been in every thread noting why it's wrong, yet you make a thread as packed as this that's just full of a bunch of smushed together sentences saying "why not" while ignoring almost every point the other threads made.

Half of your arguments are "they dodge light here" when it's light that's declined from lightspeed.
The other half is "speed can't be restricted cause AP yadayada he's the strongest but he's hurt" and ignoring context

Yes, I'm going to ignore the points of the other thread because I am not arguing for those to be changed. I'm not arguing that early BC should be MFTL+ again. I am not arguing that Julius or Cave Arc Yami should be FTL. I am not even arguing that magic power increases lead to linear speed increases. I am arguing that the justification for Light Magic AND Julius being the cap holds no water. You bring up Julius being the strongest magician. Which isn't an argument, according to yourself, because stronger doesn't mean faster. CloverDragon's thread says that Julius is superior to all magic knights with no scan backing it. With the statements comparing Julius to Lucius being stated "Strongest" by you.

Half of my argument is PROVING that Light Magic is not the fastest. Them being lightspeed spells or not is irrelevant. This proves your context of Julius statement wrong.

The FTL+ Nozel calc is an accepted Calc and the light swords in the calc are at least Light speed since they are moving faster than DEP's movement spell, that's already accepted on site.

 

[KingTempest]

That paragraph you just sent is so ******* stupid that I'm not even gonna reply

Go ahead with the stupid ass revision then

 

[Worthless]

Or when Rhya casts both Dark and light magic at the (Verbatim) same time, and is somehow able to make it move close in speeds to the light magic despite not having the physicals like Yami.

Anything is possible with magic

That paragraph you just sent is so ******* stupid that I'm not even gonna reply

Go ahead with the stupid ass revision then

Imagine labeling someone argument as "f@cking stupid" while presenting an argument that's primarily based on your lack of attention to details. Fight back. Let's see how you address his supposedly stupid arguments, his idiotic stupid thread.

 

[chosen]

Following

 

[Worthless]

I want to address the downplay Julius is receiving. Julius is not exempt from the "I can be faster than light magic" rules, as he enhances his physical capabilities through time magic and mana zone to the extent of surpassing a light magic that's twice as fast as the original speed, outpacing even Patri at the same time, and that's not the only instance where he casually shows superiority over light magic and Patri, as we've seen him causally dodging light magic and causally outpaced Patri's perception, despite the latter having the ability to see the supposedly only (lol) lightspeed spell coming towards him.

Furthermore, Julius is the only person who made Patri wonders if the person in front of him is truly even a human, and genuinely believe Julius is the force put by the world, by the fate to stop anyone who tries to violate the natural order of the world.

You could also say that's the main reason why he didn't bother using the same spell he used against Yami and Asta on Julius because he believes Julius could easily stop it. So, instead of trying to kill him directly, he used the diry tactics that we know of.

"Maybe I can't kill you... but I can kill everyone else"

Despite possessing a spell that even Yami is not confident he could block.

You can also say that the reason Patri says "he is not trying to harm me" is because he noticed that in those moments when Julius blitzed him, he could have just blasted his ass with time magic, like he did with his sword, but Instead, Julius goes for the time bubble, giving him a chance to dodge and escape from Julius.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Op I think the idea that light magic is the fastest attribute was not to say that a light magic user will always be faster than any other attribute.

I think it more so means that the highest speed that can be attained from light magic cannot be attained from any other magic.

Light magic is not light speed as default. Only some spells are. So a light mage can train to the level of reaching light speed but other attributes cannot reach it. Well at least until lucifero and the rest era when arcane magic was the order of the day.

So the example of if this was the case a light magic user will always be faster doesn't apply.

It's a skill thing. A wind magic user could have trained his attribute up to rel+ and a light magic user may be stuck at sub rel. But at the same time if the light magic user trains his element to the peak he reaches light speed meanwhile the wind magic user may forever be stuck at rel+ no matter how much he trains.

So no a light magic mage is not always the fastest. Rather a light magic mage that has reached his limits would always be slightly faster than other attribute mage that have reached their limits.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

So no a light magic mage is not always the fastest. Rather a light magic mage that has reached his limits would always be slightly faster than other attribute mage that have reached their limits.

No…

Non light magic mages can reach speeds beyond Light Magic’s inherent speeds. This is very very apparent from Dark Elf Patry beyond. Magic can just be used to amp themselves and spells attack speed.

 

[karo_senpaii]

No…

Non light magic mages can reach speeds beyond Light Magic’s inherent speeds. This is very very apparent from Dark Elf Patry beyond. Magic can just be used to amp themselves and spells attack speed.

Okay so first of all I restricted arcane magic and any stage beyond elf saga. It was pretty clear that light was left in the dust by final saga. Your example here for surpassing light magic is by using a light magic user that has been transformed into magic from another world which go against the laws of the pre existing world. He's still a light mage, just using demon light magic this time. Or am I wrong?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

The fact that you restricted this notion to stages beyond certain arcs proves it’s not a hard cap and that it’s a speed that can be surpassed. So that kinda defeats my motivation to carry on with the debate cuz if we go on we will just be discussing where the restriction should be which I’m not interested in.

I just want Nozel’s and Mereoleona’s FTL+ calcs back considering these are two mages who have narratively outperformed Julius in speed. You have Mereoleona blitzing Raia which Yami considers as fast as Patry while you have Nozel keeping up and defeating Dark Elf Patry which is far faster than Patry. These are two mages who are faster than the same Patry who Julius kept glazing and “struggled” to catch.

 

[karo_senpaii]

The fact that you restricted this notion to stages beyond certain arcs proves it’s not a hard cap and that it’s a speed that can be surpassed. So that kinda defeats my motivation to carry on with the debate cuz if we go on we will just be discussing where the restriction should be which I’m not interested in. I just want Nozel’s and Mereoleona’s FTL+ calcs back considering these are two mages who have narratively outperformed Julius in speed.

I restricted it coz light was a hard cap till outer worldly magic became in play. Neither nozel or mereolona had that

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Kk.

 

[Worthless]

I just want Nozel’s and Mereoleona’s FTL+ calcs back considering these are two mages who have narratively outperformed Julius in speed. You have Mereoleona blitzing Raia which Yami considers as fast as Patry while you have Nozel keeping up and defeating Dark Elf Patry which is far faster than Patry. These are two mages who are faster than the same Patry who Julius kept glazing and “struggled” to catch.

The only valid argument is Mereoleona's, anyone other than her is invalid. Struggling to catch someone using a magic that's stated to be slower than Patri doesn't negate the fact that Julius himself can go beyond the speed of light.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I’m not gonna fight you if you believe Julius should also be FTL. I just hate that whole fight powerscaling wise.

 

[Worthless]

Since it seems no one really gives a shit to start discussing whatever is written in the OP, do you mind sharing the full details of why you dislike it?

 

[Epsilon_R]

Struggling to catch someone using a magic that's stated to be slower than Patri doesn't negate the fact that Julius himself can go beyond the speed of light.

Julius needs said magic to teleport and catch Patry off guard, or even to dodge. Julius is not faster than his magic

 

[Worthless]

Julius needs said magic to teleport and catch Patry off guard, or even to dodge. Julius is not faster than his magic

You would need to substantiate that claim, and not just an assumption. Not to mention teleportation is not confirmed yet, and it's also unconfirmed whether the magic Lucius used to teleport is related to time magic. Patri himself acknowledges that Julius is not someone he can defeat in a direct confrontation, after getting blitzed multiple times, despite having a spell that both Yami and Asta couldn't survive or dodge. This is also the same person who not only stopped a beam from the Ancient Demon but also damaged it.

 

[Epsilon_R]

You would need to substantiate that claim, and not just an assumption. Not to mention teleportation is not confirmed yet, and it's also unconfirmed whether the magic Lucius used to teleport is related to time magic.

Pretty easy actually

The anime has him teleporting against Patry.

Time magic, when used, has a soud effect "Vum". When Julius teleports the sfx appears too.

Same thing with Lucius.

and Asta actually says he's teleporting.

So yeah both Julius and Lucius use the same Time Magic, have the same spells, same sfx and Lucius is stated to teleport. Why would anyone think Julius can't.

Also the burden of proof is on you if you believe he used another magic type. The only magic attributes he's actually stated to possess are his, and his siblings' innate magic, and the latter never showcased anything close to teleportation.

This is also the same person who not only stopped a beam from the Ancient Demon but also damaged it.

This has nothing to do with speed, for one. He only stopped the magic because his hax is to stop and erase things with time, that's also the only reason he damaged it.

 

[Xinsignia1]

You would need to substantiate that claim, and not just an assumption. Not to mention teleportation is not confirmed yet, and it's also unconfirmed whether the magic Lucius used to teleport is related to time magic. Patri himself acknowledges that Julius is not someone he can defeat in a direct confrontation, after getting blitzed multiple times, despite having a spell that both Yami and Asta couldn't survive or dodge. This is also the same person who not only stopped a beam from the Ancient Demon but also damaged it.

It has been confirmed as teleportation by Asta, Lucius uses the same type of movement with time magic, they even use the same sfx.

 

[Damage3245]

KT seems to have made good enough points against this. Put me in the disagree column for now.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

KT seems to have made good enough points against this. Put me in the disagree column for now.

What points?

That whole back and forth was based on a huge misunderstanding. I mean the OP was at fault with the first paragraph which touched on things KT already addressed in another crt which is what sparked the whole thing. However that’s only less than 1/3rd of the CRT. The rest of the crt was actually addressing something entirely different.

See here for my explanation on what more than 2/3rd of the OP is actually trying to change.

Here is also an explanation from the OP on what he’s proposing:

I am arguing that the justification for Light Magic AND Julius being the cap holds no water. You bring up Julius being the strongest magician. Which isn't an argument, according to yourself, because stronger doesn't mean faster. CloverDragon's thread says that Julius is superior to all magic knights with no scan backing it.

The part you see in bold are what hasn’t been touched on by KT’s previous thread. So the OP should put you down for disagree with Light Magic point, but what about “Julius being the fastest because he’s the strongest”? Are we just going to ignore that flaw?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Oh my god...

Welp, I figured this would happen at some point. Time to sift through this absolute text wall. Now, my interest in Black Clover scaling has admittedly gone down significantly for a multitude of reasons. However, I don't agree with this attempt to re-upgrade the cast and it'd be disingenuous of me to just not do anything despite how I feel about it. So... here we go.

The idea of Light Magic being the fastest is purely a narrative argument. FTL and FTL+ calculations were rejected purely because of this. Here’s why putting Light Magic on this pedestal is wrong. In Patry’s fight with Yami, Patry says: “However, Dark Magic is extremely slow. Light Magic has absolute speed. In that way as well, they’re polar opposites.” Patry directly compares the speed of Dark and Light Magic as polar opposites. This would mean, by the logic of the current standing on the site, Dark Magic must always be the slowest magic. Which would be patently absurd. I don’t think I need to show scans of Yami and Ichika (Both Dark Magic users) being some of the faster characters in the series. Even when Rhya copies Dark Magic, we can still see him move relatively on par with the other Third Eye. This statement supports the old standing we had on the wiki, that Light Magic is the fastest attribute. Meaning if you took two mages where everything about them was equal (magic power, level of spells, Etc.), but one had Light Magic and the other had Lightning Magic, the Light Mage would be faster, as would their spells. But that doesn’t mean a Light Mage is always faster than a Wind Mage, for example. Like when Yuno was actually fast enough to dodge Patry and Rhya’s Light, or even move fast enough to save Patry and Rhya from Patry’s Reflected Light.

There's no issue in using the narrative of a story to arrive at a rating. In fact, that's the clearest case of what the author wants the series to be rated at, so why wouldn't I use that? In fact, I feel the concept of "death of the author" is pretty abused in battleboarding in particular.

Also, you are correct that Dark Magic is extremely slow. However, the argument you're forming from it is poor, as Yami is stated to compensate for this by cloaking his sword with Dark Magic and also by using Reinforcement Magic. In fact, this is precisely what Rhya's doing when he moves alongside Vetto and Fana in the scan you're using. He's not, say, using a spell that makes him move at the "speed of darkness" or something like that, much like how Patry has a spell that makes him move at the speed of light.

In the case of Yuno, there's two things that are really important to note:

1. Dodging something doesn't immediately make you faster than it, so him dodging the light or saving Patry from it just means he's in the same ballpark as light speed. And well... His Relativistic+ rating very much supports that.
2. He's also using Mana Zone, which improves the user's reactions

Furthermore, there are feats that pretty clearly show that other characters are FTL, by being faster than Patry or DEP. When Asta fights Dark Elf Patry, he is able to consistently react to him. Over the timeskip, Asta’s power would have grown a lot, as well as his speed. While the site no longer accepts a linear relationship between power and speed growths in BC, it still accepts that a power increase does lead to some sort of speed increase as that is incredibly consistent. Asta by the time of the Spade Saga would be faster than the version of himself that could react to DEP, likely far faster. This is supported by the Anime-Canon. When Asta first goes to the Heart Kingdom, he struggles with Gaja’s speed, even though he is suppressing himself to help train Asta. Later in the training, Asta is actually able to hit Gaja who is serious. (Note: it is later revealed that Gaja didn’t actually use his full power here, but it should signify that he at least raised his power to partially honor Asta’s request to not hold back). That scene is still only halfway into the 6 months training with the heart kingdom. When Asta fights Dante, not only can Asta not even react to his opponent flying right past him, but the tracking of the anti-magic hasn’t even repositioned despite him being well past him. I don’t think there is anyway to say that Dark Elf Patry is faster than Base Dante here.

The start of this is honestly a bit of a misunderstanding of the current speed tiers. Dark Elf Patry himself is not FTL, just like how regular Patry himself is not SoL. That speed is only reached with certain light spells, most notably the movement spell, Ray of Divine Punishment, and likely Light Swords of Conviction (I only don't say fully on this one because it might have something going against it, but for the sake of argumentation, let's assume Light Swords of Conviction is also SoL). As such, Asta reacting to Dark Elf Patry swinging his sword. In fact, he couldn't react to the movement he took to get there. Both of these are shown here.

The rest of this talks about Asta's speed growth over the timeskip, which eventually culminates him being casually outsped by Base Dante. That's all well and good, so I'm not getting into that. But my conclusion overall is:

When you get this misunderstanding out of the way, you realize that no, Dark Elf Patry is not faster than Base Dante. Only certain spells from his Demon Light Magic is, and they're ones that are much faster than Dark Elf Patry himself, as demonstrated in the scans you yourself presented.

Finally, in the anime canon, Yami goes off to the grand magic region to train with Mereoleona. At this point, he has a simple Mana Zone that he hopes to master. While fighting Mereoleona, Yami thinks that she is so fast that he cannot even track her with Ki. It is later revealed that this Mereoleona isn’t even serious, implying this wouldn’t be her full speed either. This is pretty damning because Yami long before this, could pretty easily track Patry’s Light Magic with Ki. What makes it even more impressive is that Yami is actually now using Mana Zone. Which we know boosts the sensory abilities of the creator. So, a Yami with far better sensing than he did against Patry CANNOT sense a holding-back Mereoleona’s ki because of her raw speed. This isn’t even Hellfire Mereoleona either. This also 3 months before the Spade Saga, we know both Yami and Mereo get way stronger and faster after this moment with their continued training.

See, there's just one problem with this: Is the spell Yami blocks SoL? I'm inclined to believe not, as Patry refers to his Ray of Divine Punishment's speed as "speed [Yami] will never avoid" despite Yami having blocked this previous light spell beforehand.

And when you get that out of the way, the rest of this is nothing special. It just says that Mereolena > Patry, which... Yeah, no kidding.

One more thing, the idea that it would break the narrative because of Julius scaling. I understand the sentiment and the reasoning, but it’s absurd. The whole point of the last thread was to break the linear link between speed and power, yet the argument for capping the majority of the verse at light speed was because Julius is the “STRONGEST” Magic Knight? Meaning that he has to be the fastest and therefore, nobody can be LS or FTL. Which is a contradiction of the entire point of the previous CRT. Either we accept that Julius was holding back, or we accept that he was really never the strongest/fastest magic knight. When BASE Patry launches light spells at Julius, he needs to catch them all. When ELF Patry AND Elf Rhya launch light spells at Yuno, he can actually physically move to dodge them all and this isn’t even the fastest version of Yuno in the elf arc. Julius only fights a BASE Patry. Nozel fights and defeats Dark Elf Patry. There are numerous statements that elf versions of characters are considerably more powerful and faster than their human counterparts. Elf Patry >> Base Patry. Remember that Yuno could dodge Elf Patry’s light pretty easily, but despite an awakening in his spirit dive, couldn't dodge all of DEP’s Demon Light. DEP > Elf Patry >> Base Patry. Not only that, but DEP gets even stronger thanks to the negative mana rage boosts and that is the version that Nozel fights. The Patry that Julius fought, and the one that Nozel fought are incomparable. Sure, Nozel had the elemental advantage, but the majority of elemental advantages are only significant based on power. Fire is an advantage on ice but Magna said he was too weak for it to matter. Darkness is an advantage over light, but Yami didn’t believe his defensive spell would hold up against Patry’s strongest light spell. Yami’s defensive spell with an elemental advantage couldn’t withstand ray of divine punishment, but Nozel’s casual Mercury (Not an actual spell) could go against Patry’s Demon Light. This should signify a power similarity despite there being an elemental advantage involved. Not only was Nozel’s Mercury able to withstand the reflection of DEP’s attack, but he is calced to have moved faster as well in this calc. So not only did Nozel fight a much stronger Patry, but he actually moved faster as well. Also, this site has The Third Eye as stronger than Patry. Spirit Ladros is stronger than Fana, a Third Eye Member, and he couldn’t kill Asta. Yet Base Patry can damage Julius even though he has a mana zone active, which is the highest form of reinforcement magic, and literally an advancement of Mana Skin. Let’s also not forget that it’s implied the Third Eye are a lot stronger than Patry. Fana gets a lot stronger, signified by her Spirit growing, gets her Third Eye form, and then Spirit Ladros is above all that but cannot kill Asta with multiple hits. Asta even before the elf arc has better feats than Julius. So again, no matter how we look at it, using Julius to nerf the speed scaling does not work. Either he’s not the strongest or he's always holding back. Either he really wasn’t the strongest magic knight, or he was being held back. (Even Valtos thought a holding back Yami in the Cave was nearly as strong as Julius)

Gonna break this down into bullet points, I think it improves readability that way.

• You brought forward how Julius stopped all the captains and Yuno just before the Royal Knights Exam (or something of that sort) if I remember correctly, which would point to him being faster than them or at least comparable. Later during the fight with Patry, Marx even says that only those on the level of Magic Knight Captains can keep up, implying that Julius's speed is at least comparable to that of the Captains.
• I don't see why the distinction between Base Patry and Elf Patry is being made. If the argument is that the difference between these two boosts their light spells' speed, then you can't really say the spells are light speed since that'd break our criteria (this is especially damning since I think Light Swords of Conviction is allegedly light speed). If the argument is just to show that Yuno > Julius, I wouldn't even agree there, as Julius catching them instead of moving doesn't really mean he's slower than Yuno, just that it's his best means of negating the attack (hell, he does it pretty effortlessly too). Yuno's movement is also through a dedicated Mana Zone spell to begin with.
• I don't really see what the Dark Elf Patry stuff proves. The Demon Light equivalent of the SoL Light Magic spells are FTL, yeah that is just straight up true. This part relies on the idea that Yuno > Julius in speed, which I don't believe has been adequately proven.
• I'm not even getting into the power stuff because I was never gonna argue elemental advantage, that's pretty irrelevant to a speed discussion anyway, but... I really wouldn't use Valtos as a reliable metric at all.
• The idea that Julius isn't actually the "strongest" because of the Patry fight is absurd to me, given that he's explicitly stated to be holding back

With that being said, the old FTL/FTL+ calcs should be reinstated, allowing for more characters to be FTL in the Elf/Spade. And any character not given LS/FTL ratings purely because of the narrative behind Light Magic should as well. The narrative argument of light magic always being the fastest is contradicted by dark magic inherently always being the slowest because it is the polar opposite in speed, as stated by a Light Mage. Then, this is further supported by a casual Mereoleona going well beyond light speed in order to not be tracked by Yami’s amped Ki and the various other feats.

So can we finally stop saying that Dark Elf Patry in the Elf Arc is faster than Devil Union Asta in the Spade Saga?

Given all this, I don't believe the old FTL/FTL+ calcs should be reinstated. Lightspeed being a cap for the earlier part of Black Clover seems pretty consistently established, and I believe I've addressed the arguments against such a cap.

In addition, Devil Union Asta is not slower than Dark Elf Patry. Only specific Demon Light Magic spells are faster than him

 

[CloverDragon03]

Also y'all seriously need to chill, this powerscaling stuff is never that serious

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Also y'all seriously need to chill, this powerscaling stuff is never that serious

Says Clover in a forum where multiple parties have been banned because powerscaling stuff is that serious...