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Black Clover Licht's problems

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I'd be ok with scaling Zagred to at least 1/3 as strong as Demon Licht, that would make him at least High 6-C (386.7 Gigatons)
 
But the word Devil doesn't infect people with his mana to corrupt them, he makes them feel great despair and then they naturally turn themselves into a demon. So he didn't infect Licht with his mana, all he did was make him feel greats amount of despair and then to fend off the devil, Licht uses the stones as a defense to make his vessel unusable.
 
Well, can you guys contact some staff members who are knowledgeable about Black Clover and see what they say
 
The anime version of this scene also had Licht talking about getting overwhelmed by the negative mana. So I'm pretty sure the translation for that page is correct. Licht was getting overwhelmed by Zagred's negative mana and was about to be possessed. So to prevent that from happening he decided to absorb even more negative mana from the magic stones to use a forbidden spell to become a demon.
 
So basically, Zagred is totally >>> Licht without the stones, but is a part of Demon Licht's power alongside the original Licht and the stones. Yeah, I think we can say Zagred is 1/3 of the feat in that case.
 
Is there any evidence that the Magic stones are equal to Zagred's mana? If not, there's no point of downgrading him to 1/3 of Demon Licht

Besides, It's not even like Zagred as a soul had as much mana as when he gains his body
 
Even if there's no evidence of the stones being equal to Zagred, Zagred would only scale to 1/2 of Demon Licht. So, is there evidence?
 
1/2 of Demon Licht when Zagred has more mana than Licht? Yeah, no

Besides, It's not even like Zagred as a soul had as much mana as when he gains his body
 
Epsilon R said:
1/2 of Demon Licht when Zagred has more mana than Licht? Yeah, no
Click to expand...
You're still forgetting that Demon Licht is Licht + Zagred + magic stones, so even if Zagred >>> Licht, the magic stones were added to Licht's power so he could become a demon himself and not be possessed by Zagred. So if anything, Zagred is half of the power while Licht with stones is the other half unless we know how much the stones amped him.
 
And that's assuming Demon Licht is 100% of Zagred's power, which isn't the case. Also You're still forgetting that Zagred had more mana when he got his body than when he was a soul
 
I mean we know that Zagred as a soul while possessing Ronne can casually defeat Raia as well as restrain Lumiere with enough prep time. So assuming at the time he was somewhat comparable to Licht and Lumiere makes sense. And the magic stones have always been really op being able to give Secre enough power to seal Zagred's soul and all that. So assuming Demon Licht is roughly 3x normal Licht sounds fair.

Everybody else can just upscale and downscale from High 6-C via being 1/3 of Demon Licht. Zagred's true form could just be at least High 6-C, possibly higher since we don't know for sure how much stronger he is compared to his soul and Demon Licht all we know is that he's stronger.
 
I still think Zagred should be likely Low 6-B since he is a high Ranking Demon (just under the Dark Triad who are the highests ranking Demons). Besides, we don't actually know what role the stones played in his transfomation, all we know is that he used them to cast the forbidden spell.

Btw to cast a forbidden spell, you need a sacrifice so Licht most likely used the stones ro sacrifice his body, hence why he changed physically
 
The top tiers of the verse seem to be the Dark Triad who legitimately scale above Demon Licth.

I don't even see how we aren't scaling Zagred to Demon Licth in the first place because of the fact that Zagred in his true body already has a boost, next he gets his spell boom as well

Next we have a statement that acknowledges Zagreb's existence as the only devil/demon who was of high rank in the whole world
 
Peter1129 said:
I've had these same problems in another thread so yeah I obviously agree with Mitch as well. Yami's Dark Magic is considered arcane tier which consists of characters with durability negating abilities so yeah I really don't think Yami scales directly to the top tiers.
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Arcana tier has literally nothing to do with durability negation. Asta and Nero do not have durability negation, and yet they are stated to be arcane tier (and Asta was proven to be Arcane tier by virtue of killing Zagred).
 
Ryuga21 said:
Epsilon, do not reverse the burden of proof, it was you who assumed that Lumiere was weakened and was refuted in your attempt to prove it.
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He didn't reverse any burden of proof, he provided the scan showing Lumiere was injured. He had also been using mana beforehand, which means he had lower mana, which means lower stamina. I don't see how this constitutes NOT being weak. Nothing is being assumed here, King is simply not wanting to buy into the logic that "bleeding from fatal injury and low on mana =/= weakened" which is absurd. From what I've read until this far, Epsilon is the only person who has provided any valid counterarguments. Also, a ton of you are strawmanning and putting words in his mouth. He never said "they should scale since they are both devils", so I don't know why you all keep talking like he said that. Don't accuse someone of committing fallacy when you're unable to provide examples of where he committed said fallacy: that in itself is fallacious.
 
KingOFG said:
Yes, I was refuted by a guy who think that two characters can be equals just by share the same race.
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You can't accuse Epsilon of lying when your rhetorical tactics are to literally lie. Also, I don't consider ant himself agreeing relevant. His one vote doesn't outdo multiple votes, especially if he isn't super well-informed in the subject matter. I'm not saying his vote doesn't count, I'm saying that the fact that he voted proves literally nothing, especially because he provided no reasons for agreement. No offense to Ant.
 
He reversed the burden of proof several times. As says several thing without prove anything. There's no fatal injury, just blood. There's no scene when Lumiere clams be weakened with that injury, a Low 6-B character should not be several times weakened because a chest bleeding.
 
Peter1129 said:
Demon Licht is Licht + Zagred + magic stones though. Also Zagred isn't a highest ranking Devil he's just high ranked. The devils possessed by the Dark Triad are the highest ranked ones.
Click to expand...
No, that is inaccurate. Demonic Licht is REPRESSED Zagred + Licht + Magic Stones. We have no idea how REPRESSED Zagred scales to anyone in particular, but we do know he is weaker than Zagred with a body, which is the Devil everyone faced in the Shadow Palace.
 
DemonGodMitchAubin said:
How about we just make Zagred At least High 6-C, possibly Low 6-B
Click to expand...
I mean Zagred's true form doesn't have any statements of being comparable to Demon Licht. And we already saw throughout the arc that even with his true form Licht and Lumiere are still said to be really fast and strong for him as they could still keep up with him and injure him.

Meanwhile against Demon Licht other than whe Licht briefly took back control Lumiere never once managed to wound him. This was also shown in the anime when Demon Licht just no sold pretty much everything thrown at him by Lumiere.
 
Peter1129 said:
And we already saw throughout the arc that even with his true form Licht and Lumiere are still said to be really fast and strong for him as they could still keep up with him and injure him.
Click to expand...
That literally doesn't matter, as it hardly affects AP in this case.
 
KingOFG said:
As says several thing without prove anything.
Click to expand...
The fact that you are unable to give examples suggests otherwise.

There's no fatal injury, just blood. There's no scene when Lumiere clams be weakened with that injury, a Low 6-B character should not be several times weakened because a chest bleeding.

Literally, in that very same scan he gave you, Secré tells Lumiere "I can't let you die here, my Prince" and chose to seal him. He had a hole in his chest, him being Low 6-B would have very little to do with this, since his death would come via bleeding out, and less from the attack itself. And then Secré implied he is gonna die and she has to prevent it. Given this, it is unreasonable to deny he is wounded to a significant extent.
 
Also, Peter, the anime isn't the most faithful adaptation of the manga. To be frank with you, the manga didn't show the battle going quite like that, so I'm a little skeptical.

If we take the anime as confirmation of anything the way you are doing, then we have to assume that Lumiere wasn't trying hard during his fight against Licht until the very end, because this is exactly how the anime portrayed it. Lumiere didn't want to fight his best friend, almost-brother-in-law, and he certainly didn't want to kill him. It wasn't until the end that he decided to go full-out, after Licht begged him and told him "Now is your chance." So, by this argument, there is insufficient reason to claim Demon Licht scales higher than Lumiere.
 
Anyway, there was this large comment Epsilon wrote earlier formatted by bullet points and all, and I agree with most of it, so I put my vote on the disagreeing camp (for now). I've yet to be convinced that the calc it's all based on is questionable, although I agree the scaling could be fixed (just not explicitly in the exact way he OP proposed).
 
KingOFG said:
Yes, she says that because Lumiere is weaker than Demon Licht. Just that.
Click to expand...
That has less evidence than anything else mentioned in this thread. You are just picking straws at this point and stretching it. Especially because in the panel above, she noted the wound and expressed serious concern. If the wound were insignificant, it is unlikely she would expressed concern.
 
I mean Zagred's true form doesn't have any statements of being comparable to Demon Licht. And we already saw throughout the arc that even with his true form Licht and Lumiere are still said to be really fast and strong for him as they could still keep up with him and injure him.

Meanwhile against Demon Licht other than whe Licht briefly took back control Lumiere never once managed to wound him. This was also shown in the anime when Demon Licht just no sold pretty much everything thrown at him by Lumiere.


This is literally about his Word Magic.
 
It doesn't matter. The whole point is that even in his true form Licht and Lumiere could still keep up with and injure him. Which means the difference between Zagred, Licht, and Lumiere isn't ridiculously huge.

Anyways since I'm honestly lost about what the heck is being talked about right now so I'll just be posting my proposal on the tiering for Zagred, Licht, and Lumiere. I'll just leave the rest to you guys as I'll be unfollowing now.

Demon Licht: Low 6-B (Possesses the combined power of Zagred's soul, Licht, and the magic stones. Was going to destroy the Clover Kingdom)

True Form Zagred: At least High 6-C (Fought against Licht, Lumiere, Asta, and Yuno)

Licht: High 6-C (Should possess around 1/3 of his demon form's power)

Lumiere: High 6-C (Comparable to Licht. Kept up with and injured True Form Zagred)

Zagred's Soul: Likely High 6-C (Easily defeated Raia and could restrai Lumiere with a bit of prep time)
 
I don't think you guys understand. The statement from Lucifer himself literally puts Zagred above or at least comparable to Demon Licht.

In the first place True Body Zagre with Spell Book> Zagred with Word Magic>> Zagred as a Soul.

Also not only that but Zagreds durability would scale to low 6B anyway because of the explosion.
 
You know what, I can accept Licht and Lumiere being High 6-C. What I don't agree however is Zagred being 1/3rd of Demon Licht.

First, the Magic Stones were used for casting the forbidden spell which changed his body. Nothing states that he took the magic from the stones (do the stones have mana to begin with?)

Second, Zagred as a soul has far less mana than when he acquired a body, as I said previously.

It doesn't matter. The whole point is that even in his true form Licht and Lumiere could still keep up with and injure him. Which means the difference between Zagred, Licht, and Lumiere isn't ridiculously huge.

A 3× difference isn't that big either. And no, being injured by Lumière doesn't prove that Zagred isn't Low 6-B (In fact, that would only prove that Lumiere is actually Low 6-B since he damaged both Demon Licht and him). Besides, Lumiere's sword just phase through him, he didn't even need to regenerate from it, which also proves that Zagred wasn't lying when he said Lumiere's attacks wouldn't have damaged him.

So at the very least, Zagred as a soul would be 1/2 of Demon Licht since the stones doesn't have mana.

True Zagred would be "At least High 6-C (Downscales from Low 6-B), likely Low 6-B"

Lumiere would be "At least High 6-C"
 
I disagree with this whole 1/3 stuff. Characters just don't scale to Demon Licht. The stone amp is Unknown we can't assume that.
 
All of the amps are unknown.

and again this new arc makes the proposals inconsistent.

Yuno was able to push Zeno to use 50 percent of his powers. The same Zeno who is scaling above Demon Licht. This would also backscale right back to Zagred. Which also supports the statement again made by Lucifer putting Zagred above Licht
 
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