Black Clover Licht's problems

[Epsilon_R]

Magic Stones were used to cast the forbidden spell which changed his body. Nothing states that he took the magic from the stones, do the stones even have mana to begin with? If not Zagred is at least 1/2 and not 1/3

 

[Duedate8898]

As I said, the Word Devil doesn't infect you with his magic in order to turn you into a dark elf. What he does is make an elf feel greats amount of despair, such as killing all of your loved ones in a massacre or revealing that you've been tricked into doing all of your evil deeds. That's why the grimoire becomes a five leaf clover, after that, Licht then used the mana stones to amp his own magic as to fend off the devil from taking him over, however due to his despairing state all of the mana was negative causing him to further transform.

Demon Licht is more of an after effect then the intentional cost.

 

[AstralKing7]

Licht wasn't turned into a Dark elf. He literally became a demon. Zagred actually does take over your body by magic. That's what he did to one of the humans who trapped Lumiere.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I still believe going with "At least High 6-C, possibly Low 6-B" is the best option

 

[Duedate8898]

Licht's was in the process of turning into a dark elf, hence the blackening of his eyes like Patri's He reclaimed his heart and halted the process of his transformation, which then caused the Word Devil to try and take him in that moment, but is then stopped by Licht using the magic stones. And I know the world devil takes over by magic, I'm saying he never got to actually do that to Licht or even infect him with his own magic like that.

 

[AstralKing7]

I still believe going with "At least High 6-C, possibly Low 6-B" is the best option

There isn't anything at all supporting this when there is way more support for Zagred being full 6B because the scaling will make him 6B anyway. It wouldn't even be consistent when reading the profiles.

 

[Ionliosite]

... What even supports full 6-B Zagred.

 

[AstralKing7]

Low 6B I meant. The fact that Yuno is going to scale to low 6B literally because of Zeno . The same Yuno who fough Zagred. Besides the fact that. We literally get a statement that supports Zagred actually being stronger than Licht from Lucifer.

Also the fact that we don't have to go on the assumption that Zagred didn't get stronger much stronger when he got his body along then next using his magic out of his spell book

 

[Ionliosite]

he fact that Yuno is going to scale to low 6B literally because of Zeno . The same Yuno who fough Zagred.

Not quite true, the current Yuno isn't the same who fought Zagred, there was literally a time skip of training in between.

Besides the fact that. We literally get a statement that supports Zagred actually being stronger than Licht from Lucifer.

Scan on that.

 

[MindControl116]

Not quite true, the current Yuno isn't the same who fought Zagred, there was literally a time skip of training in between.

Post-time skip base Yuno seems to be of comparable strength to that of amped Spirit Dive Yuno during Zagred's fight, though.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Once again, the compromise method and going with "At least High 6-C, possibly Low 6-B" accomedates to both sides of the argument since it's very subjective and unclear what Zagred completely scales to

 

[Ryuga21]

I think that a "higher" instead of Low 6-B would make more sense

 

[MindControl116]

I think that a "higher" instead of Low 6-B would make more sense

Considering that nothing even really supports anything higher than low 6-B, I don't see why this would be better.

 

[MindControl116]

Also, OP needs to update the vote count.

 

[Ionliosite]

Considering that nothing even really supports anything higher than low 6-B, I don't see why this would be better.

... You took it in reverse. Ryuga says that it should be ""At least High 6-C, likely higher" due to a lack of evidence that Zagred fully scales to Demon Licht instead of just a fraction of his power.

 

[MindControl116]

… You took it in reverse. Ryuga says that it should be ""At least High 6-C, likely higher" due to a lack of evidence that Zagred fully scales to Demon Licht instead of just a fraction of his power.

Zagred was already stated by Dante to be among a rather high-rank devil in chapter 243. So, there is evidence. Meanwhile, there is no evidence that Zagred scales to only a fraction of Demon Licht. That whole "Zagred is 1/3 of Demon Licht" is derived from the false assumption that Licht had some of Zagred's power, which isn't really true, Zagred was never stated to add Licht's power. Also, even if he did contribute to his power, that Zagred would have been severely restricted due to not having a body or a grimoire. So even if restricted Zagred could then scale to a fraction of Demon Licht's power, full-power Zagred definitely scales higher. An injured Lumiere defeated Demon Licht by himself, although, granted, Demon Licht made himself vulnerable. That same Lumiere used a combo spell with Licht and still didn't manage to kill full-powered Zagred. Taking that into consideration, it makes very little sense to say he scales to only a fraction of Demon Licht.

 

[Ionliosite]

Full Power Zagred totally scales higher, hence the "likely higher" added.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

So what are the conclusions here

 

[AstralKing7]

Everyone is most likely still low 6B now because of the last set chapter.

Yami is low 6B so now that makes Zagred low 6B

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Yami could just be far stronger than Zagred now, it has been 6 Months, there's nothing that says current Yami is weaker or comparable to Zagred

 

[Epsilon_R]

Post-Timeskip characters would be Low 6-B regardless. But I still disagree with Zagred only scaling to 1/3 of Demon Licht

 

[AstralKing7]

Yami could just be far stronger than Zagred now, it has been 6 Months, there's nothing that says current Yami is weaker or comparable to Zagred

No one said weaker. Far stronger is head canon. You can't prove that at all. Yami states the only thing he did was learn new magic spells.

Not only that but the fact that we already know Yami can defeat devils pretty much supports him scaling to Zagred back then because that's when the statement was made since we already got a glimpse of the Dark Triad then

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

The burden of proof is on you to prove that Zagred is as strong as the current Yami, now that I think about it, does the Dark Triad even scale to Demon Licht, they scale above Zagred, but that doesn't mean they scale above Demon Licht

 

[Epsilon_R]

@Mitch, we already went over this. The Dark Triad are the highest ranking Demons, they should be above Demon Licht.

Actually Demon Licht should most likely be below Zagred since there's no proof that he is an high Ranking Demon like him

If anything, only Licht and Noelle should be downgraded

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Allright, my bad about the Dark Triad thing, just needed confirmation on that

Once again, there's no proof of scaling Demon Licht to Zagred, which why I feel "At least High 6-C, possibly Low 6-B" is best for him and normal Licht, they should scale to at least half of Demon Licht, not 1/3 like everyone has been saying

 

[Epsilon_R]

Allright, my bad about the Dark Triad thing, just needed confirmation on that

Once again, there's no proof of scaling Demon Licht to Zagred, which why I feel "At least High 6-C, possibly Low 6-B" is best for him and normal Licht, they should scale to at least half of Demon Licht, not 1/3 like everyone has been saying

Actually, reverse card:

Unlike Zagred, Demon Licht's wasn't revealed so he could totally be a High-Ranking demon but he could also be a Mid-Ranking demon or a Lower-Ranking one

And do not forget that Licht only let a demon possessing him in order to prevent Zagred from doing it, Licht himself knew Lumière could kill him.

Finally, both of them fighting together weren't able to harm him at all. So yeah he should definitely scale.

And about the 1/3 stuff:

• This is assuming the Magic stones have mana equal to Licht and Zagred
• This is assuming the stones have mana at all, which wasn't stated to as far as I know
• This is ignoring that True Zagred actually has more mana than his soul counterpart, who didn't even need to put all of his mana inside Licht to overwhelm him

 

[MindControl116]

^^What Epsilon said. As far as I know, the Magic Stones have been stated to allow certain mages to be able to cast forbidden magic. Nothing about them adding to one's mana has been stated, though, from what I recall. So counting them as a form of amplification of power might just be erroneous.

 

[CaptainR1ch19]

Licht did appear to use the magic stones to draw more negative mana into himself so that could be seen as a form of amplification.

 

[MindControl116]

Licht did appear to use the magic stones to draw more negative mana into himself so that could be seen as a form of amplification.

We already discussed this in the other thread. The only role the stones played in that interaction was to allow Licht to use forbidden magic. That is not amplification. The stones are not responsible for him getting more negative mana. He literally stated "I'm gonna pull more negative mana towards myself." Yes, the stones allowed him to use forbidden magic, but the act of acquiring more negative mana is something he did on his own, not the stones.

 

[CaptainR1ch19]

Licht did appear to use the magic stones to draw more negative mana into himself so that could be seen as a form of amplification.

We already discussed this in the other thread. The only role the stones played in that interaction was to allow Licht to use forbidden magic. That is not amplification. The stones are not responsible for him getting more negative mana. He literally stated "I'm gonna pull more negative mana towards myself." Yes, the stones allowed him to use forbidden magic, but the act of acquiring more negative mana is something he did on his own, not the stones.

To avoid repeating myself from the other thread, I'll simply just paraphrase my point

- The stones allowed Licht to draw in more negative mana.

- This can be seen when Licht says that he's drawn more magic into his body while we see the magic stones glowing, and directly after he's said this Zagreb points out the magic stone

- This is emphasised further in the anime by the fact that as Licht says he pulled in more negative mana, we get a direct shot of the magic stones glowing and then right after we hear Zagreb's statement.

In other words, the stones allowed Licht to increase the volume of his negative mana by drawing more mana in.

 

[Ionliosite]

So there are 3 options here that seem to be the ones with the most discussion, so I'll list them:

1. Scale Zagred's Soul to 1/3 of Demon Licht which would put him as "High 6-C" and put True Zagred at "At least High 6-C, likely higher" (Reason: Zagred's Soul is one of the 3 parts that make up Demon Licht, alongside Licht and the magic stones, and we don't know how much stronger his True Form is beyond "a lot")
2. Scale Zagred's Soul to 1/2 of Demon Licht which would put him as "High 6-C" and put True Zagred at "At least High 6-C, possibly Low 6-B" (Reason: The magic stones didn't give mana of their own and Zagred's True Form is stated to be a lot stronger than his Soul which makes claiming it be may be twice as strong not much of a strecht)
3. Scale Zagred's Soul to 1/2 of Demon Licht which would put him as "High 6-C" and put True Zagred at "Low 6-B" (Reason: Same as above reasoning as 2, in addition to Zagred being said to be a High Rank Demon, while such claim was never made for Demon Licht)

Pick your poison.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Also want to point out that even combined attack of Licht and Lumiere with Mana Zone (Mana Zone multiplies several times your attack power) didn't hurt Zagred at. So, even if Zagred soul was 1/3 of Demon Licht, Zagred would be 3× Lumiere so Low 6-B regardless

 

[Ionliosite]

Show me the thread Mana Zone was agreed to be a 3x multiplier and I'll give you that point.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Show me the thread Mana Zone was agreed to be a 3x multiplier and I'll give you that point.

I never said it has to be a 3× Multiplier, a 2× Multiplier is more than enough for him to be 100% Low 6-B.

And even if that's not 2× Multiplier for some reason, he still tanked the combined attack of Licht and Lumiere which would still make him 2× stronger than Lumiere and Low 6-B in options 2 & 3

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

So there are 3 options here that seem to be the ones with the most discussion, so I'll list them:

1. Scale Zagred's Soul to 1/3 of Demon Licht which would put him as "High 6-C" and put True Zagred at "At least High 6-C, likely higher" (Reason: Zagred's Soul is one of the 3 parts that make up Demon Licht, alongside Licht and the magic stones, and we don't know how much stronger his True Form is beyond "a lot")
2. Scale Zagred's Soul to 1/2 of Demon Licht which would put him as "High 6-C" and put True Zagred at "At least High 6-C, possibly Low 6-B" (Reason: The magic stones didn't give mana of their own and Zagred's True Form is stated to be a lot stronger than his Soul which makes claiming it be may be twice as strong not much of a strecht)
3. Scale Zagred's Soul to 1/2 of Demon Licht which would put him as "High 6-C" and put True Zagred at "Low 6-B" (Reason: Same as above reasoning as 2, in addition to Zagred being said to be a High Rank Demon, while such claim was never made for Demon Licht)

Pick your poison.

I agree wit method 2 or 3, at this point I'm just tired of this thread since we keep going in circles

 

[Elizhaa]

Option 2 or 3 looks fine, to me.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Options 2 or 3 would work for me.

 

[AstralKing7]

Option 3 makes the most sense to me. It doesn't use as much assumption as opinion 2's reasoning for Zagred with a body


Also we didn't give Zagred a key for his soul anyway. His profile only reflects his Body

 

[Epsilon_R]

Option 3

 

[Ionliosite]

Ok then, I think that means the agreedment is Option 3, aka, High 6-C for Zagred's Soul and Low 6-B for True Zagred.

Also we didn't give Zagred a key for his soul anyway. His profile only reflects his Body

With this, his profile will have a "Soul" key now.