Bill Cipher Tier Revision

[Jinsye]

As the title says, his current tiers aren’t correct. So we’re doing this whole roundabout thing again to try and improve his page a bit more.

11-A is Bad
As stated in a similar thread, Bill’s 11-A rating is not correct due to the fact that we don’t give out tiers based on dimensionality anymore. So him being tier 11 based on being 2nd dimensional doesn’t hold any water. This is proven when Stanford travels to the 2nd dimension, 3-D beings are explicitly not considered ‘gods’ to 2-D beings, and the 2nd dimensional beings were capable of harming Stanford by physically attacking him with their bodies.. This is the same reason why the 6 to 11-D aliens aren't High 1-C. Thus, Bill shouldn’t be infinitely below all other characters due to this.

4-A is Bad
The current justification for 4-A is when we see Stanford standing across the galaxy. This is dumb because it’s very clearly metaphorical. It’s a metaphor for Ford’s infinite power if he teams up with Bill, which is represented by someone standing over a cosmic structure. This happens in most other fictional verses to represent the level of their power, so I don’t believe sheer size is an argument for 4-A here.

What Should Replace Them?
The answer is not exactly something you’d expect. Bill’s tier should most likely be Unknown, possibly 3-A. Why the sudden upgrade? Well, you have to remember that Bill completely destroyed his 2-D universe. When Bill discusses destroying his home dimension, he symbolizes it as a planet burning which implies that this dimension is at least cosmic like our own universe, just flat. This universe is treated similarly to the other dimensions in Journal 3 and has its own civilizations and worlds like any other, thus destroying this dimension should still be Universe level, as the destruction of a 2-D universe and 3-D universe is no different in AP if dimensional superiority doesn’t exist within the verse. The only reason why the Unknown caveat is there, is because the methodology is unknown but we do know it isn’t the dimensional rift.

The dimensional rift wouldn’t form if he is in his home dimension as that rift is what allows him to travel into Gravity Falls, so he wouldn’t need it. This applies to both keys due to the fact he only gets stronger when becoming 3rd dimensional so he would be able to apply his 3-A AP across a 3-D plane, albeit his first key keeps his shitty range so don’t expect any matches with that one.

The feat above is possible, but I've decided against it. It's much safer to put Bill as Unknown and to also remove the separation of keys due to the lack of difference in power between them.

Conclusion
Remove 11-A and 4-A from Bill’s profile. Replace both with one Unknown key. Speed should also be Unknown instead of None as well due to dimensionality not being a factor anymore.

 

[CinnabarManx421]

The dimensional rift wouldn’t form if he is in his home dimension as that rift is what allows him to travel into Gravity Falls, so he wouldn’t need it.

Little thing but I’m not sure about this, the Dimensional Rift is what allows him to travel from the Nightmare Realm to other realms not specifically to Gravity Falls so he could’ve used the rift in his home dimension. Neutral on everything else.

 

[Jinsye]

Little thing but I’m not sure about this, the Dimensional Rift is what allows him to travel from the Nightmare Realm to other realms not specifically to Gravity Falls so he could’ve used the rift in his home dimension. Neutral on everything else.

Saying he used the dimensional rift to destroy his homeworld is more headcanon than fact. Interpretations like these are why the rating is only a 'possibly' but I still don't believe it's likely that the Rift was used. If he had access to it the entire time he wouldn't need to force Ford to go throughout the entire plot just to open it.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Ya, I thought it was weird that he was tiered that way when I saw it. Gravity Falls 2-D and ours are clearly different.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

4-A is Bad
The current justification for 4-A is when we see Stanford standing across the galaxy. This is dumb because it’s very clearly metaphorical. It’s a metaphor for Ford’s infinite power if he teams up with Bill, which is represented by someone standing over a cosmic structure. This happens in most other fictional verses to represent the level of their power, so I don’t believe sheer size is an argument for 4-A here.

I'm not interested in the other subjects, but I totally agree with that. That scene was just a view to show that Bill's power would rise to a very high level.

 

[Jinsye]

I'm going to make it clear here, 3-A is not a solid rating by any means. It requires a lot of assumptions and should only be used if we're really desperate to give Bill a tier.

Unknown would be by far his best tier, but that's not up for me to decide.

 

[Eficiente]

11-B being incorrect is true and I've been hoping to change that one day.

4-A is not metaphorical nor wrong, you would just have to re-evaluate that as nothing not already said could be said about it.

"Possibly 3-A" doesn't hold any ground.

"When Bill discusses destroying his home dimension, he symbolizes it as a planet burning which implies that this dimension is at least cosmic like our own universe, just flat."

Even if it was a flat universe the size of our own, destroying that wouldn't be 3-A for the same reason destroying a flat Earth isn't 5-B. We have here our standards for realities and what they have to do to be the size of our universe, this doesn't come remotely close, you can't just say that a dimension is that big because it shows a planet, let alone when you show a 2-D dimension that might be the size of an expensive board game, which even if it was bigger, we don't know if that planet was the size of a real planet compared to the tiny people found there. I don't see the other worlds you say this dimension has aside from the one Bill pointed out, and being "treated similarly" to other places and how it "has its own civilizations" are meaningless facts to its size as that would still be the case should they be far smaller than our universe.

 

[Jinsye]

I'm not strong enough for 3-A that I think it needs to be there so I'll concede on that. Bill's tier should be Unknown because 4-A is bad.

You can't just say that I'm wrong without further explanation, what makes Ford standing over a galaxy an actual feat because it's not one, it's a vision that represents power, not a real feat of strength.

 

[Eficiente]

It shows what his power/abilities are able to do in the form of visuals, what this means is that "what the visuals show is what they're able to do", not "what the visuals show is a metaphor to what they're able to do but not something they can do". The latter simply goes against common sense, and that's about it, there isn't much to elaborate on the matter.

 

[Jinsye]

Not everything in the visual is absolutely literal, just like how not everything in it is entirely metaphorical either. You could say that the parts with Bill and his friends are literal, sure, whatever, but the part with Ford is 100% not meant to be literal.

Bill is talking about being all powerful and Ford is upon a galaxy, if we're taking this part of the scene as literal then the way it is shown makes no sense. Ford's size and anatomy doesn't make sense, why is only his chest and above galactic size and where's his bottom half? If you're going to take it literally then you're going to need to explain everything about it. It doesn't make sense.

It's much easier to just say that this is an image/representation of Ford getting cosmic power, not a feat of strength. This is impressive but the level is unknown due to the fact we wouldn't know how strong this cosmic power is because a representation/visual doesn't dictate anything besides 'cosmic'.

 

[Eficiente]

I already know not everything is literal, I wrote that much in the blog about it, but I don't see why would Ford's part be metaphorical. You take "Bill talking about being all powerful as in the visual having to represent that in a metaphor" rather than "Bill saying that on its own and the visuals showing something else as what his powers can do", why? It is a common metaphor to have people bigger than the world or cosmic things, but this is not some opening, imagination of a character, or a narration that is not happening in canon, is a character showing to another character what his powers can do, the ridiculous things shown are what he can do, most things there you already see as not being a metaphor and this last thing shows a similar use of power as what's shown before, that being getting bigger in size, being in space, and having a lack of concern something cosmic due to that bigger size.

Ford's size and anatomy doesn't make sense, why is only his chest and above galactic size and where's his bottom half? If you're going to take it literally then you're going to need to explain everything about it. It doesn't make sense.

The part below his chest is below the galaxy, the camera simply approximates too fast there, this is not something that it needs to explain everything about it, there is a degree of vagueness about it that we acknowledge like how there is no timeframe for how long would it take anyone to grow that size, but what you point out is just a nitpick. They don't show the part below the galaxy when Ford is there minus in that blurred space when Bill is flying that disappears instantly and is clearly not meant to connect to the space of the next cut.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Agree with the tier 11 and tier 4 points.

 

[Eficiente]

Well, we can first propose a change to that 11-A stat that needs to be removed, see that, and apply it. We will see things after that.

 

[y3p_owo]

I agree with tossing 11-A and 4-A.

 

[CinnabarManx421]

Bump

 

[Nierre]

agree with tier 11 and 4 points fra

 

[Antvasima]

What QuasiYuri and Eficiente accepted above can probably be applied.

@Elizhaa @Amelia_Lonelyheart

What do you think about this?

 

[Eficiente]

I fear that the regular user might have just read the op about the tier 4 thing, simply because it is too common to just read the op.

 

[Antvasima]

What QuasiYuri and Eficiente accepted above can probably be applied.

@Elizhaa @Amelia_Lonelyheart

What do you think about this?

@Elizhaa @Amelia_Lonelyheart

Your help would be appreciated here.

 

[Antvasima]

I fear that the regular user might have just read the op about the tier 4 thing, simply because it is too common to just read the op.

So what do you think that we should do here exactly?

 

[Eficiente]

Worst case scenario, even a few staff more disagree with me, we only use a planet-sized Bill as his peak and I alter my blog to reflect that. I wouldn't have an issue with it, if I would have a tiny text in the blog saying that I personally disagree with this notion.

We can wait Elizhaa and Amelia to read what I said on the manner, or otherwise apply this anyway if they don't come in a reasonable amount of time.

That's all, I really easily see the galaxy-sized Ford as not poetic and the idea of it being poetic as unfounded.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Can you call for Elizhaa and Amelia please? They do not seem to respond to me here.

 

[CinnabarManx421]

Idk at this point if the Tier 4 for Bill is staying but if it does if he has a Tier for him being that large with his size Manip should he not also have a Tier for when he’s regular size? I mean he does have feats when he’s his normal size like blowing off the top of the church and you could even scale him to the destruction of the town. Building/Town level is kinda low for him but it would be better than being Unknown Tier no?

 

[CharlesZaGreat]

Doesn't Bill Cipher have a feat where he disintegrates a bunch of people, mayhaps that could be used for his AP (Without the need for size manipulation)

 

[Livinmeme]

Doesn't Bill Cipher have a feat where he disintegrates a bunch of people, mayhaps that could be used for his AP (Without the need for size manipulation)

That was calced like Large bulding level+

 

[Jinsye]

Idk at this point if the Tier 4 for Bill is staying but if it does if he has a Tier for him being that large with his size Manip should he not also have a Tier for when he’s regular size? I mean he does have feats when he’s his normal size like blowing off the top of the church and you could even scale him to the destruction of the town. Building/Town level is kinda low for him but it would be better than being Unknown Tier no?

Disintegrating Time Baby was calced at country level or something since he's 10 trillion tons or so.

 

[Antvasima]

Worst case scenario, even a few staff more disagree with me, we only use a planet-sized Bill as his peak and I alter my blog to reflect that. I wouldn't have an issue with it, if I would have a tiny text in the blog saying that I personally disagree with this notion.

We can wait Elizhaa and Amelia to read what I said on the manner, or otherwise apply this anyway if they don't come in a reasonable amount of time.

That's all, I really easily see the galaxy-sized Ford as not poetic and the idea of it being poetic as unfounded.

Okay. Can you call for Elizhaa and Amelia please? They do not seem to respond to me here.

@Elizhaa @Amelia_Lonelyheart

 

[CharlesZaGreat]

Disintegrating Time Baby was calced at country level or something since he's 10 trillion tons or so.

...That's quite the calc right there, you have link to it or?

 

[Jinsye]

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

...That's quite the calc right there, you have link to it or?

Got 9 Teratons.

 

[Antvasima]

Got 9 Teratons.

All of those calculations seem to have been accepted already, so the results can probably be applied.

 

[Eficiente]

Those are some double standards people show, Time Baby weighing 9 trillion tons comes from a super casual comment from Bill in which it would make perfect sense for him to over exaggerate what he's saying or not be accurate just to make fun of Time Baby, the dish being that he's fat.

 

[CinnabarManx421]

Those are some double standards people show, Time Baby weighing 9 trillion tons comes from a super casual comment from Bill in which it would make perfect sense for him to over exaggerate what he's saying or not be accurate just to make fun of Time Baby, the dish being that he's fat.

So if it’s unusable Bill would only be like Tier 8 when he’s not making himself the size of a planet. Do we have the actual quote to determine whether he was making a joke or not?

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Worst case scenario, even a few staff more disagree with me, we only use a planet-sized Bill as his peak and I alter my blog to reflect that. I wouldn't have an issue with it, if I would have a tiny text in the blog saying that I personally disagree with this notion.

We can wait Elizhaa and Amelia to read what I said on the manner, or otherwise apply this anyway if they don't come in a reasonable amount of time.

That's all, I really easily see the galaxy-sized Ford as not poetic and the idea of it being poetic as unfounded.

I agree, Bill is capable of doing tons of crazy stuff so galaxy-sized Ford isn’t too unreal

 

[CharlesZaGreat]

So if it’s unusable Bill would only be like Tier 8 when he’s not making himself the size of a planet. Do we have the actual quote to determine whether he was making a joke or not?

...Well, Bill and Time Baby don't like each other, so Bill trying to insult him isn't an impossibility

 

[Eficiente]

Q: "Are you acquainted with Time Baby or know of his existence?"

A: "AUGH! DONT REMIND ME OF THAT OBESE BOMBASTIC DIAPER-WEARING TYRANT! THINKS HE'S SO GREAT JUST BECAUSE HE'S THE LAST SON OF AN EXTINCT RACE OF TIME GIANTS. WHATS THE POINT OF RULING THE ENTIRE FUTURE IF YOU DONT HAVE OBJECT PERMANENCE AND GET DISTRACTED BY JINGLING KEYS?!

I'D DISSEMBLE HIS MOLECULES TO SALT MY MARGARITA IF I COULD, BUT ITS NOT EASY. LET ME ASK YOU- HAVE YOU EVER TRIED TO PUNCH A 9 TRILLION TON TODDLER? YOUR FIST GETS STUCK IN HIS CHEEK FAT FOR LIKE A WEEK! IF I HAD PHYSICAL FORM...."

I agree with this possibly being used, since really he may or may not be purposely lying or lying w/o really thinking too much about it and prioritizing a dish, but yes the possibility exists that he's saying the true. The rest of the Q&A has him with the same attitude; informative when he tries to be informative and casual when casual.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

BUT ITS NOT EASY. LET ME ASK YOU- HAVE YOU EVER TRIED TO PUNCH A 9 TRILLION TON TODDLER? YOUR FIST GETS STUCK IN HIS CHEEK FAT FOR LIKE A WEEK! IF I HAD PHYSICAL FORM...."

I think this is solid to use, the context of this statement doesn’t really seem like he’s joking

 

[Eficiente]

"YOUR FIST GETS STUCK IN HIS CHEEK FAT FOR LIKE A WEEK!" is most likely just false, which is the follow-up to that, and it doesn't need to be a joke in structure, simply an exaggeration because he doesn't like him. Edit: Or to overemphasise his point of him being tough next to his current power.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Also Bill should get Class 10 LS without his telekinesis or whatever, considering he was able to restrain Stan and Ford.

I also think we should make a profile for the house mech thingy, it has some good feats like it throwing a massive bear really far

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

AP/Durability: Low 7-C (Made a crater), possibly 6-B (Annihilated the Time Baby, who he claims weighs 9 trillion tons, though this may very well be hyperbolic)

LS: Class K with Telekinesis (Lifted the Fearamid)