Bill Cipher removal (or change) of 12-D HDE??? (Gravity Falls)

[Georredannea15]

Alr, Here we go!!!

- Bill's HDE is basically because he might able to liberate the second dimension and ascended to third dimension, and he said "I can do in the higher dimensions and 11th dimension." But there is a problem, it was never shown to us that he did this for the higher dimensions. He was never able to ascend geometrically to the 11th and 12th dimension

First, let's take a look at the HDE page

A given object or entity is referred to as being higher-dimensional when they exist as part of a system with a number of coordinates axes greater than our own, or in layman's terms, if they possess more than three dimensions.

The term “Higher-Dimensional Existence” refers to objects and entities that exist in more than the regular 3-dimensional space, with at least one additional dimension

In short, in order to have HDE, your existence has to have extra axes geometrically, but for Bill that was never shown in the series. all we were told was that he could "get up there". But HDE only deals with the geometrical axes that you have, just because Bill can get up there doesn't mean that he has those geometrical axes. And Bill never reached those dimensions with his geometrical axes. The only achievement we were shown was that he liberated the 2nd dimension and ascended to the 3rd dimension. (The literaly his only feat)


To give a simple example, it would be like declaring someone who says "I'm going to be a champion" a champion just because he says it. Would that make sense? Of course not.

The fact that Bill says he can do it not a sufficient requirement to assume that he has these extra geometric axes because he doesn't really done this, and if he didn't, we don't need to assume that he has these extra axes . as I quoted above, HDE only deals with the geometric axes that you have now. If you don't have them, then you are not a higher dimensional being


But I would like to add a 2nd option if you think it is too heavy to removal.


- The first option is directly removal as I described above (and this is basically what I support)

- And the second option is that the HDE remains possibly 12-D, but not suitable for combat because Bill has never shown any feat for has 12-D HDE. If there is no feat, then we shouldn't make an assumption that he has it and can use it in a battle.


STAFF ONLY
Agree : LordGriffin1000, Maverick_Zero_X, CurrySenpai, CloverDragon03 (option 2),
Disagree :
Neutral :

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

This Proposal seems logical, I agree and think option 1 is the better option, but am fine with both. May change my mind later if good counter arguments arise.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I agree with little brother (option 1 seems better)

 

[Georredannea15]

I agree with little brother (option 1 seems better)

My older brother is always right

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I'm more in favor of option 1 at the moment but will wait and see potential arguments.

 

[IsleRootsSaga]

Should his Acausality type 4 go too?

 

[CurrySenpai]

I don’t think Option 2 makes any sense since if he doesn’t have 12-D HDE in the first place why have the possibly there but with a special note of “Don’t use this for combat.” Seems redundant.

Snipe it away, I agree with Option 1 and the thread.

 

[ShionAH]

This does not make sense, Bill narratively has his eyes on saving all the dimensions. He was gonna do this by liberating them one by one, and ascending to them

We already know when Bill "ascends" he literally gains a new geometrical axis this was confirmed in the show, this is supported by the 11D Aliens fearing Bill's powers implying that they knew Bill was gonna 'liberate' their dimension too.

Is the OP just saying we dont know if Bill can do it even though it would not make sense if he couldnt so it doesnt count?

Plus this is literally under his dimensional manipulation, which means he will passively grow to these dimensions but it does not mean he is always 12D. I think people just misunderstood the ability.

Also not even informing about this is kind of a annoying move, come on man I thought you were better than that

 

[ShionAH]

I don’t think Option 2 makes any sense since if he doesn’t have 12-D HDE in the first place

Yes he does not, he will gain it though in the future. Thats why its under dimensional manipulation...

 

[CurrySenpai]

This does not make sense, Bill narratively has his eyes on saving all the dimensions. He was gonna do this by liberating them one by one, and ascending to them

Is the OP just saying we dont know if Bill can do it even though it would not make sense if he couldnt so it doesnt count?

See:

To give a simple example, it would be like declaring someone who says "I'm going to be a champion" a champion just because he says it. Would that make sense? Of course not.

We already know when Bill "ascends" he literally gains a new geometrical axis this was confirmed in the show, this is supported by the 11D Aliens fearing Bill's powers implying that they knew Bill was gonna 'liberate' their dimension too.

Also see:

In short, in order to have HDE, your existence has to have extra axes geometrically, but for Bill that was never shown in the series. all we were told was that he could "get up there". But HDE only deals with the geometrical axes that you have, just because Bill can get up there doesn't mean that he has those geometrical axes. And Bill never reached those dimensions with his geometrical axes. The only achievement we were shown was that he liberated the 2nd dimension and ascended to the 3rd dimension. (The literaly his only feat)

Also not even informing about this is kind of a annoying move, come on man I thought you were better than that

Can you guys stop getting so angry over people making CRTs and "not informing you" or "doing it after the person who upgraded the verse was banned."? Really, you were going to see it anyway, and nobody owes you a ping in your inbox because they're downgrading your beloved verse. Stop acting childish.

 

[ShionAH]

See:

Bill does gain geometrical axis when he ascends.

Can you guys stop getting so angry over people making CRTs and "not informing you" or "doing it after the person who upgraded the verse was banned."? Really, you were going to see it anyway, and nobody owes you a ping in your inbox because they're downgrading your beloved verse.

Its the morally right thing to do

Stop acting childish.

Aren't you the one who screamed for an entire page about the Strym issue then contradicted yourself several times and then got off because people started to roast your argument lol?

Yikes...

 

[CurrySenpai]

Aren't you the one who screamed for an entire page about the Strym issue then contradicted yourself several times and then got off because people started to roast your argument lol?

Yikes...

Whatever helps you sleep at night, also stop derailing, if you have issues with me, I am glad to talk about it privately

 

[Georredannea15]

Bill does gain geometrical axis when he ascends.

The problem is that even if we assume that when he ascended geometrically, there is no feat that he ascended to 12-D and higher dimensions.

HDE is not the kind of thing where you say "it didn't ascend, but if it had ascended it would have been geometrically 12-D, so let's give it this", HDE is a geometrical state of existence. Either you are geometrically higher dimensional or you are not. There is no other option in this. And Bill has not shown any evidence of a geometrical ascent to 12-D in any way. Even if he had the power to do it, he's not have 12-D geometrical existence. So it should be removed.


And there is no need to be aggressive. Just be relax.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

The problem is that even if we assume that when he ascended geometrically, there is no feat that he ascended to 12-D and higher dimensions.

HDE is not the kind of thing where you say "it didn't ascend, but if it had ascended it would have been geometrically 12-D, so let's give it this", HDE is a geometrical state of existence. Either you are geometrically higher dimensional or you are not. There is no other option in this. And Bill has not shown any evidence of a geometrical ascent to 12-D in any way. Even if he had the power to do it, 12-D does not have geometric existence. So it should be removed.


And there is no need to be aggressive. Just be relax.

Well, since it didn't become 12D wouldn't 1-B be removed too?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Well, since it didn't become 12D wouldn't 1-B be removed too?

I don't believe so since his 1-B feat wasn't connected to his own dimensional existence that I'm aware.

 

[Georredannea15]

Well, since it didn't become 12D wouldn't 1-B be removed too?

Not at the moment. This will only nuked HDE, but I was planning to do a revision for 12-D in the future, so I should at least review it.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I don't believe so since his 1-B feat wasn't connected to his own dimensional existence that I'm aware.

So this looks good

Not at the moment. This will only nuked HDE, but I was planning to do a revision in 12-D in the future, so I should at least review it.

I think you could do this

 

[ShionAH]

I think you could do this

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Not at the moment. This will only nuked HDE, but I was planning to do a revision for 12-D in the future, so I should at least review it.

wait for the F*CKING BOOK TO COME OUT!!!!!

oh and agree for option one

 

[Georredannea15]

wait for the F*CKING BOOK TO COME OUT!!!!!

oh and agree for option one

I. CAN'T. WAIT.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

I. CAN'T. WAIT.

YOU WILL WAIT OTHERWISE I WILL FIND YOU

 

[Georredannea15]

YOU WILL WAIT OTHERWISE I WILL FIND YOU

STAY AWAY FROM ME

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree with the OP.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Aren't you the one who screamed for an entire page about the Strym issue then contradicted yourself several times and then got off because people started to roast your argument lol?

Yikes...

Also, this is unnecessary and toxic. Don’t randomly take jabs at other users like this in the future.

 

[ShionAH]

Also, this is unnecessary and toxic. Don’t randomly take jabs at other users like this in the future.

They started the personal insults. I responded to it.

 

[Georredannea15]

Okay guys, just chill.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

We'll meet again,
Don't know where, don't know when,
But I know we'll meet again, some sunny day.

 

[Rutæhh]

this seems good easy agree

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

STAY AWAY FROM ME

IM GOING TO BECOME REINA

 

[IDK3465]

Agree with option 1 for reasons above.

(Also, not to derail the thread, but why did StrymULTRA get banned? Haven’t heard what happened at all and I’m curious as to why)

 

[ShionAH]

(Also, not to derail the thread, but why did StrymULTRA get banned? Haven’t heard what happened at all and I’m curious as to why)

Phobic jokes on discord

 

[IDK3465]

Phobic jokes on discord

ohhhh... yikes...

 

[CloverDragon03]

The problem is that even if we assume that when he ascended geometrically, there is no feat that he ascended to 12-D and higher dimensions.

HDE is not the kind of thing where you say "it didn't ascend, but if it had ascended it would have been geometrically 12-D, so let's give it this", HDE is a geometrical state of existence. Either you are geometrically higher dimensional or you are not. There is no other option in this. And Bill has not shown any evidence of a geometrical ascent to 12-D in any way. Even if he had the power to do it, he's not have 12-D geometrical existence. So it should be removed.

I'm not sure. If he's gonna liberate their world like he did the 2-dimensional one, and liberating the 2-D one ascended him to a 3-D being, then it would naturally follow that he'd become an even higher-dimensional being once he's liberated their world. We don't need to see him do this, we know it's what's gonna happen from statements and the only reason it didn't happen is because his liberation attempt failed

 

[Georredannea15]

I'm not sure. If he's gonna liberate their world like he did the 2-dimensional one, and liberating the 2-D one ascended him to a 3-D being, then it would naturally follow that he'd become an even higher-dimensional being once he's liberated their world. We don't need to see him do this, we know it's what's gonna happen from statements and the only reason it didn't happen is because his liberation attempt failed

But HDE doesn't work that way. HDE depends on your geometric existence shown in the verse, if it is not shown in the verse to have 12-D geometrical existence then he does not have HDE, the only thing it has and is shown to us in the verse is that it ascends to the 3rd dimension.

To give a simple example, it would be like declaring someone who says "I'm going to be a champion" a champion just because he says it. Would that make sense? Of course not.

I quoted a few quotes from the HDE page. Even if you have the potential to ascended up to 12-D, you still won't qualify for HDE if it's not shown in the verse that you have that geometrical axis. The HDE page explains more along with the things I quoted

 

[CloverDragon03]

Except he's shown having that extra geometrical axis when he does ascend to the 3rd dimension, so you're saying things that Bill does qualify for. Again, the only reason he didn't ascend further was because his plan was stopped, but it's something he's absolutely capable of

 

[DaReaperMan]

Really, it should just be noted that Bill going even 4-D physically is combat inapplicable unless you can't kill him in the first place or some shit

AKA, second option is good with me.

 

[Georredannea15]

Except he's shown having that extra geometrical axis when he does ascend to the 3rd dimension, so you're saying things that Bill does qualify for. Again, the only reason he didn't ascend further was because his plan was stopped, but it's something he's absolutely capable of

Yes, this doesn't work on HDE like on other haxs. Because HDE "just looks at the geometric axis that you have at that moment and that you show in the verse", that's all. Just take a look at the page.

That's why a guy that do not have that geometrical axis but exist in higher dimensions do not qualify for a HDE.

 

[CloverDragon03]

So even if he's capable of gaining said extra geometrical axes, it still wouldn't qualify? Not even for something like "Would eventually gain Higher-Dimensional Existence"?

 

[Georredannea15]

So even if he's capable of gaining said extra geometrical axes, it still wouldn't qualify? Not even for something like "Would eventually gain Higher-Dimensional Existence"?

Basically yes, because HDE just asks "do you have these axes or not?". In short, it must be shown concretely that you have it.

That's why a guy that do not have that geometrical axis but exist in higher dimensions do not qualify for a HDE.

For similar reasons, such characters also did not qualify for HDE

 

[CloverDragon03]

I think it's ridiculous to deny the fact that he would eventually gain HDE from his Dimensional Manipulation. It's very concrete that this will happen. So while I agree with changing it to reflect that it's not something he has to start with, I completely disagree with removing it outright