BIG POKEMON UPGRADES

[Arceus0x]

High 7-A

High 7-A | 6-C

High 7-A | 6-C | 6-C

Large Mountain level+ (comparable to other fully evolved Pokemon such as Tyranitar)

Large Mountain level+ (comparable to other fully evolved Pokemon such as Tyranitar) | Island level (Stronger than Pure/Huge Power Pokémon and Marowak holding a Thick Club)

Large Mountain level+ (comparable to other fully evolved Pokemon such as Tyranitar) | Island level (Stronger than Pure/Huge Power Pokémon and Marowak holding a Thick Club) | Island level (Far stronger than before. Should be comparable to other Gigantamax pokemon such as Centiscorch)

Large Mountain Class

Large Mountain Class | Island Class

Large Mountain Class | Island Class | Island Class

Large Mountain level+ (comparable to other fully evolved Pokemon such as Tyranitar)

Large Mountain level+ (comparable to other fully evolved Pokemon such as Tyranitar) | Island level (Stronger than Pure/Huge Power Pokémon and Marowak holding a Thick Club)

Large Mountain level+ (Can tank hits from other fully evolved pokemon) | Island level (Can take hits from other mega evolved Pokemon) | Island level (Far stronger than before. Should be comparable to other Gigantamax pokemon such as Centiscorch)

LS:
Class M (should be superior to Brock's Happiny) | Class M
Class M (should be superior to Brock's Happiny) | Class M | Class T (superior to the likes of Machamp)

Speed:
FTL (comparable to the likes of Lycanroc)
FTL (comparable to the likes of Lycanroc) | FTL (faster than before)
FTL (comparable to the likes of Lycanroc) | FTL (faster than before) | FTL


Marrowak:

Only ap with thick club reaches 6-C, not dura

Pikachu: ill edit him myself

i prepared the text already

 

[GyroNutz]

They can canonically use it. Discarding it as they never did is nonsense.

I don't see how this is relevant? We weren't discussing whether the move (or "feat") exists or not, it's whether it makes sense to scale it to fully evolved Pokemon given that it's commonly learned at lower levels and can be used by first stage Pokemon. Our calculations suggest High 7-A+, which is the most reliable tiering.

Anyways, should we agree on lifting strength changes too? It will affect a lot of profiles so may as well add it in with the other changes. I think any Pokemon that learns Strength should get Class K lifting strength based on my calc above and the Gible calc (since apparently it was wild + used strength). Class M fully evolved Pokemon and Class T legendaries were also brought up.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Class M final evolutions aside from Machamp and Grimmsnarl, who scale to Class T via a calc I did

 

[Regice]

Magnitude should be scaled to last stage pokemon because:
1: they can use it
2: it makes sense
3: idk I wanted to make a list of reasons because I think it should be counted

 

[KieranH10]

I don't see how this is relevant? We weren't discussing whether the move (or "feat") exists or not, it's whether it makes sense to scale it to fully evolved Pokemon given that it's commonly learned at lower levels and can be used by first stage Pokemon. Our calculations suggest High 7-A+, which is the most reliable tiering.

I agree with this.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ok so, let me go straight and debunk these points.

It can be learned even from Geodude, tanked from Baby mons and is consistently learned at low levels across all stages.

Game Mechanics exist. I'm not arguing that now even Babies have 6-C stats because of this, as with like this everyone and their mothers would be 2-B/2-A. I'm arguing that we should use feats to decide which degree of Magnitude we should use. If feats for fully evolution mons are close to 10, then what exactly stops us from using it? It got beyond Magnitude 9 feat wise, saying that 10 can't be used when they have feats supporting them being able to use such amount of power even lore wise is nonsense.

Also because I got this 6-C Alakazam calc (should still be evaluated), to make it even more supported.

It is arbitrary to make scale only higher stages, we either apply it to everyone or to no one.

This is already fails since, in the case of Strength which was mentioned before, Gible, a base mon, has feats of having such LS levels in lore, and thus anyone who has Strength scales. However, in Magnitude case, only full evos showed similar degrees to such power level.

It would be safer to use just the High 7-A+ results since they can use at very least that.

That's right, if we didn't have a proof of them being even higher because Magnitude 10 is canonically a thing. They can use it in the games, they have shown >9 levels more times in lore, I'd say that is more than supported and that rejecting it is just nitpicking.

 

[KieranH10]

Game Mechanics exist. I'm not arguing that now even Babies have 6-C stats because of this, as with like this everyone and their mothers would be 2-B/2-A. I'm arguing that we should use feats to decide which degree of Magnitude we should use. If feats for fully evolution mons are close to 10, then what exactly stops us from using it?

Because that's making up rules for a verse that simply aren't true. We cant say "Only fully evolved pokemon can use Magnitude 10" because it simply isn't true.

It got beyond Magnitude 9 feat wise, saying that 10 can't be used when they have feats supporting them being able to use such amount of power even lore wise is nonsense.

Keep it to the feats we actually see. We cant scale a move all pokemon to use and tank to only some pokemon.

This is already fails since, in the case of Strength which was mentioned before, Gible, a base mon, has feats of having such LS levels in lore, and thus anyone who has Strength scales. However, in Magnitude case, only full evos showed similar degrees to such power level.

This is a completely different scenario.

That's right, if we didn't have a proof of them being even higher because Magnitude 10 is canonically a thing. They can use it in the games, they have shown >9 levels more times in lore, I'd say that is more than supported and that rejecting it is just nitpicking.

Babies can use it in the games too, that isn't a point either way.
They have shown >9 levels in-lore, yes. But a High 7-A calculation is High 7-A.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Because that's making up rules for a verse that simply aren't true. We cant say "Only fully evolved pokemon can use Magnitude 10" because it simply isn't true.

It actually is. Fully evolved mons have feats close to 10, Baby not, ergo is an outlier for whoever isn't a full evo.

Keep it to the feats we actually see. We cant scale a move all pokemon to use and tank to only some pokemon

Did I say it? I said that we should use feats to see which ones can it be applied to. I don't think is too hard to get.

This is a completely different scenario.

Nope, I'm just using the logic used behind Strength to make Magnitude 10 usable.

Babies can use it in the games too, that isn't a point either

They can tank Creation Trio attacks too, so what exactly?

They have shown >9 levels in-lore, yes. But a High 7-A calculation is High 7-A.

Read above. I'm saying that they should be used to support Magnitude 10 being a thing for Full evos.

 

[KieranH10]

It actually is. Fully evolved mons have feats close to 10, Baby not, ergo is an outlier for whoever isn't a full evo.

But it's the same move?

Did I say it? I said that we should use feats to see which ones can it be applied to. I don't think is too hard to get.

Yes. You said that we should only use Magnitude 10 for third stage Pokemon and above... Even though First stages can use and tank it.

Nope, I'm just using the logic used behind Strength to make Magnitude 10 usable.

No, Gible is a first stage Pokemon for starters. Saying that another first stage and above Pokemon with the same move should scale to the calc is not an unreliable assumption.

On the other hand you are arguing that Magnitude, a move most notable for it's differing variable attack power, that can be learned by any stage of Pokemon, should only scale to top tiers.

They can tank Creation Trio attacks too, so what exactly?

And how do we treat that?

Read above. I'm saying that they should be used to support Magnitude 10 being a thing for Full evos.

We're either taking Magnitude 10 into account in general, or not. We cant have an in-between for the same move at the same stated power.

 

[StrymULTRA]

But it's the same move?

Same move that is used at different degrees and scale. It's from 4 to 10, and I'm arguing that higher levels are legit only for higher stages due of having feats comparable to these.

Yes. You said that we should only use Magnitude 10 for third stage Pokemon and above... Even though First stages can use and tank it.

Throught game mechanics and not lore.

No, Gible is a first stage Pokemon for starters. Saying that another first stage and above Pokemon with the same move should scale to the calc is not an unreliable assumption.

On the other hand you are arguing that Magnitude, a move most notable for it's differing variable attack power, that can be learned by any stage of Pokemon, should only scale to top tiers.

I said for the ones who can learn Strenght tho...

And how do we treat that?

Game mechanics, as said above.

We're either taking Magnitude 10 into account in general, or not. We cant have an in-between for the same move at the same stated power.

Said power is absolutely not the same when Magnitude has canonically a scale of degrees which are from 4 to 10.

And BTW, I checked the Alakazam feat and that wasn't KE at all in the ep, making that calc unusable.

 

[Arceus0x]

considering no new arguments have risen, should we just get on with the upgrade?

 

[KieranH10]

Same move that is used at different degrees and scale. It's from 4 to 10, and I'm arguing that higher levels are legit only for higher stages due of having feats comparable to these.

And ignoring the main function of the attack in the process, Pokemon cannot control the level at which Magnitude is used. A Stage 3 has just as much a chance to use Mag10 than a stage 1 does.

Throught game mechanics and not lore.

Stage 3's cant use Magnitude 10 through lore.

I said for the ones who can learn Strenght tho...

So did I? The ones who can learn strength scaling to Gibles strength calc is not a large assumption, because Gible is a stage 1 who should be comparable to other stage 1s, and inferior to higher stages.

Game mechanics, as said above.

Then why bring up the point?

Said power is absolutely not the same when Magnitude has canonically a scale of degrees which are from 4 to 10.

Which can all be used by all Pokemon, and varies the same between all Pokemon.

considering no new arguments have risen, should we just get on with the upgrade?

I'm fine with the Upgrade to the High 7-A Calc. Not using Magnitude 10.

 

[Arceus0x]

Kieran do you know anyone who could make a Centiscorch profile?

 

[KieranH10]

Somebody who knows about Centiscorch

I'd do it if I cared at all for anything past Black and White 2

 

[Arceus0x]

Somebody who knows about Centiscorch

I'd do it if I cared at all for anything past Black and White 2

Thing is we need one for scaling G-max mons and idk anything about the rules behind making poke-profiles. It really isn't that hard for someone who made profiles before, and idk who else to ask. Ik that you don't wanna but i would really appreciate if you could make one, heck, i even posted my small attempted sandbox of the profile in the messages above (i think) and all you have to do is add any TM moves or what ever is allowed on a profile and add in some of the moves in G-max form

 

[KieranH10]

idk about the rules behind making poke-profiles

Nor do I really.
There's at least 8 people better than me for this job.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I could probably make a Centiskorch profile, the only thing is if I have the time

 

[Arceus0x]

I could probably make a Centiskorch profile, the only thing is if I have the time

any luck?

 

[CloverDragon03]

any luck?

Hasn't been done yet. Should the profile be made with or without the upgrades in mind, by the way?

 

[Arceus0x]

Hasn't been done yet. Should the profile be made with or without the upgrades in mind, by the way?

with. We're gonna be scaling all g-maxes from it

 

[CloverDragon03]

with. We're gonna be scaling all g-maxes from it

This means the FTL stuff and lifting strength stuff too, right?

 

[Arceus0x]

This means the FTL stuff and lifting strength stuff too, right?

yes, it can be the exemplar pokemon

 

[GyroNutz]

So to clarify:

High 7-A+ fully evolved Pokemon, scaling from Tyranitar and manga Piloswine's feat.

6-C pure/huge power Pokemon (+ thick club Marowak), via being 2x Tyranitar's feat, and megas via being > the former.

5x multiplier for Dynamax, Gigantamax and Eternamax due to Dragonite, Pikachu and Riolu's combined attack matching a G-Max Centiskorch (resulting in 6-C gigantamax Pokemon).

FTL fully evolved Pokemon, scaling from Golem and anime Lycanroc, and megas etc, scaling from Ash Greninja

Class K strength users, via scaling to Gible and via pushing the blocks in the Abyssal Ruins.

Class M fully evolved Pokemon, via scaling above Brock's Happiny

Class T legendaries (and gigantamax Pokemon?), via scaling above Machamp

Anything I missed?

 

[theultimate5105]

So to clarify:

High 7-A+ fully evolved Pokemon, scaling from Tyranitar and manga Piloswine's feat.

6-C pure/huge power Pokemon (+ thick club Marowak), via being 2x Tyranitar's feat, and megas via being > the former.

5x multiplier for Dynamax, Gigantamax and Eternamax due to Dragonite, Pikachu and Riolu's combined attack matching a G-Max Centiskorch (resulting in 6-C gigantamax Pokemon).

FTL fully evolved Pokemon, scaling from Golem and anime Lycanroc, and megas etc, scaling from Ash Greninja

Class K strength users, via scaling to Gible and via pushing the blocks in the Abyssal Ruins.

Class M fully evolved Pokemon, via scaling above Brock's Happiny

Class T legendaries (and gigantamax Pokemon?), via scaling above Machamp

Anything I missed?

Class T for Certain Pokemon like Grimmsnarl who is superior to Machamp as well as Megas and Gigantamax
but everything else looks correct

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'll start making the Centiskorch profile and then we can apply changes going from that profile.

Last thing: Do Gigantamaxes scale to Ash-Greninja's speed?

 

[CloverDragon03]

It has been created

 

[Arceus0x]

Thank you. Tommorow we rise and upgrade all pages

 

[Gohanblanco217]

It has been created

Can anyone pls link the scan for the High 7-A feat instead of just a calc?

 

[Arceus0x]

Can anyone pls link the scan for the High 7-A feat instead of just a calc?

I mean a calc is all that we need in the profile and the images are in the calc

 

[Gohanblanco217]

I mean a calc is all that we need in the profile and the images are in the calc

Here's the problem there is literally 0 images/scans linked in the clac.......

 

[Arceus0x]

Here's the problem there is literally 0 images/scans linked in the clac.......

Oh you mean that... You do realize there are no scans right? The only thing i can do is link some pokedex entry right? Actually I'll prolly do that

 

[CloverDragon03]

Can anyone pls link the scan for the High 7-A feat instead of just a calc?

Well there are no images because it comes from a Pokedex entry

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Oh you mean that... You do realize there are no scans right? The only thing i can do is link some pokedex entry right? Actually I'll prolly do that

Well there are no images because it comes from a Pokedex entry

Never mind then I didn't realize that

 

[Arceus0x]

Sorry for not doing this once again. I had some shiz coming up.
Anyways tomorrow i will actually have time and around up to sunday.

 

[GyroNutz]

I can help with updating some profiles tomorrow hopefully.

 

[Arceus0x]

I can help with updating some profiles tomorrow hopefully.

great! it ain't gonna be easy for poor ol me here to upgrade every single one of em.
Anyways i wanna take gen 1-2. In fact ill do the beginning of the upgrade right now and update tyranitar and swinub

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

So to clarify:

FTL fully evolved Pokemon, scaling from Golem and anime Lycanroc, and megas etc, scaling from Ash Greninja

Actually, Ash-Greninja fought Toe-to-Toe with Alain's Mega Charizard X, who easily blocked a heat wave from Trevor's Mega Charizard Y in Base, which was boosted by drought. That same Mega Charizard X also one shotted this Mega Charizard Y with a flamethrower

So: Alain's Mega Charizard X >>> Base Charizard >> Trevor's Mega Charizard Y with drought >> Mega Charizard Y >>> Base Charizard

Ash Greninja < Alain's Mega Charizard X, but only slightly, as they were almost on equal footing for a long time in their match

Both Ash's Greninja and Alain's Mega Charizard X fought toe to toe with the Champion's Ace Pokemon (Charizard against Steven's Metagross, and Ash against Diantha's Gardevoir)

 

[Arceus0x]

does tyranitar scale to class T or M?

 

[CloverDragon03]

does tyranitar scale to class T or M?

Tyranitar is Class M

 

[Arceus0x]

Tyranitar is Class M

ok but what speed to i use?
Like what calc and to whom should i add it?