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Big Hal Jordan Revision

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LordTracer said:
Okay, that makes sense then. So would Hal's keys would be Pre-Crisis | Post-Crisis | Post-Infinite Crisis or something else?
Click to expand...
I suppose that might work.

Would you be willing to adjust his profile Firestorm808?
 
Should me and the other knowledgable members and mods come to a consensus, I will help with the profile adjustment. As I said before, I'm in opposition to the upgrade.
 
  • Ion Vol 1 #5 October 2006
    • Hal shouldn't scale to Ion
    • During the entire Ion storyline, Kyle with Ion is leagues above the others in power.
    • Ion is rarely serious In the fights.
    • Knocking Ion a bit shouldn't make you 2-C; otherwise, Bounty hunter Tarra Karn would be 2-C.
    • Even though Alexander was leeching off of Kyle and Ion's power, Kyle still one shot him afterward.
 
There any particular reason why Hal shouldn't scale? You can't just say he shouldn't, and not give a reason. Hell, Hal 1v1ed Nero at one point in that run.
 
No, I am not. I am saying Nero at least somewhat scales to Ion (which does not mean they're equal), and Hal can damage and fight Nero. The point is that it's 2-C.
 
  • Infinite Crisis Special: Rann-Thanagar War April 2006
    • Jade dies and gives Kyle her Lantern Power, the Starheart energy.
    • The power that Rayner once gave to Jade has been returned to him. It was subtly changed by her spirit while she had it. The mutated power is now the catalyst for greater change with Kyle being the crucible.
  • Ion Vol 1 #3 August 2006
    • Thanks to Jade's sacrifice, she gave Kyle the connection to the starheart.
  • Ion Vol #6 November 2006
    • The Ion powers were born within Kyle when the green lantern energies of Oa combined with the wild magic of the Starheart.
    • What he has become has allowed the Guardians to place within him the spark of all that the Guardians and the Green Lantern Corps are.
 
If everyone who made Ion grunt or flinch were to somewhat scale to him, the scaling chains would make many people universe level.
 
Nero was literally fighting off both at the same time, he also caught Ion's hammer mid-swing and hit him with it. He was also siphoning Ion's power, as you mentioned. He should be 2-C, and Hal was able to fight him earlier.
 
Firestorm808 makes sense to me. We should probably avoid such a drastic upgrade then.

Would you be willing to write a footnote explanation in the Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) page regarding this?
 
On the other hand, didn't the Green Lanterns Corps as a group have a blatant galactic feat? Maybe somebody could write a "Green Lantern Corps" page that lists that?
 
LordTracer said:
Nero was literally fighting off both at the same time, he also caught Ion's hammer mid-swing and hit him with it. He was also siphoning Ion's power, as you mentioned. He should be 2-C, and Hal was able to fight him earlier.
Click to expand...
Um, scuse me? Also there's still more 2-C stuff in the OP that was not addressed fully.
 
@Firestorm808

Thank you for helping out. I appreciate it.
 
LordTracer said:
Nero was literally fighting off both at the same time, he also caught Ion's hammer mid-swing and hit him with it. He was also siphoning Ion's power, as you mentioned. He should be 2-C, and Hal was able to fight him earlier.
Click to expand...
Bump. I'd like everything to be properly addressed, thanks.
 
Let's wait for Firestorm808 then.
 
In regards to Nero, Ion is holding back, whereas Ion is comparatively more serious against Grayven. Even Grayven doesn't scale to the full power of Ion.

  • Ion Vol 1 #11 April 2007
    • Grayven, son of Darkseid against a serious Ion
      • Stops Kyle's blast and punch
      • Heat visions Kyle.
      • Breaks out of Kyle's constructs
      • Tanks Kyle's energized charge
    • Not holding back or caring about Grayven's life, Kyle forcefully blasts Grayven into unconsciousness in one shot.
I'm waiting for the other knowledgable members to give their input as well.
 
Again, Nero was siphoning Ion's power (which should already be 2-C), and his body withstood Ion's full power, meaning that, at the very least, his durability is 2-C, and Hal could damage Nero.
 
You make it sound like Ion was trying to kill Nero, and Ion didn't use his full power against him. Nero got one-shotted by a slightly serious Ion whereas Grayven took attacks from a serious Ion and got one-shotted by an Ion not caring about Grayven's life.
 
I don't know where you got me saying Ion wanted to kill Nero from, but ooookay... and Ion was pretty clearly serious against Nero the entire time, not just when he overloaded him. The statements he made before the fight should make that obvious.

That doesn't change that Nero can withstand attacks from Ion, and Hal was still able to harm him.
 
You just said that Nero's body withstood Ion's full power, which would imply that Ion tried to stop him with everything he's got without caring for Nero's life.
 
That's not what that implies at all... comic characters can go full power and still not try to kill (just look at the fight between Kalibak and Superman).
 
Okay, and? Ion was at the least serious against Nero, Nero still withstood a blast from him and harmed him. Ergo, Nero should be 2-C. Hal could fight Nero one-one-one. Ergo, Hal should be 2-C.
 
@Firestorm808

So what should we do here?
 
In comics, its common for Everybody Fighting Everybody, so we need to make sure that people actually scale to their opponents not only in that fight but in the overall continuity consistency. When Multiversal characters are involved, you don't automatically scale to them for hurting them, let alone staggering or flinching him, without checking consistency and context. No base lanterns without a reasonable explanation should scale to the power of an Emotional Entity. The general power hierarchy of the Lantern Corps is Base Lantern < Guardian < Central Power Battery < Emotional Entity

  • Hal fought on par with ZH Parallax, and they were stated to be equals in willpower. (This is an outlier since ZH Parallax is 2-A, but it continues to show that Hal at his peak can match and even overpower the Emotional Entities) | Green Lantern Vol 3 #106 October 1998
    • As you said, this is a huge outlier.
    • I will explain below why he doesn't match the power of emotional entities.
  • He briefly matched Parallax on his ow. | Green Lantern: Rebirth Vol 1 #6 May 2005
    • In no way did Hal match Parallax Ganthet's power. Ganthet was unfazed by Hal's blast until Hal pierced its tongue and mouth.
    • Almost all 5 of the Green Lanterns harmed the Parallax Guardian in that fight, not just Hal.
    • John Stewart restrained the arms
    • Guy Gardner cut into his chest
    • Kyle pierced his mouth
  • Flinched Superboy-Prime. | Infinite Crisis Vol 1 #7 June 2006
  • He and Ion Kyle Rayner were having comparable effects on Alex Nero and they both seemed to be portrayed as comparable. | Ion Vol 1 #5 October 2006
    • Nero doesn't not scale to Ion
    • Even though Alexander was leeching off of Kyle and Ion's power, this was when he was still getting used to the energy and couldn't harness it properly. After his visions of Mogo, the power is different, and he could harness all of it. Kyle still one-shot him afterward with just some of the energy.
  • Also, Hal (with minimal help since the other GLs were low on power) took down the second Mandrakk. The second Mandrakk is much weaker than the one that fought the Thought Robot, so I'm not really sure how powerful he is, but it's still impressive nonetheless. | Final Crisis Vol 1 #7 March 2009
    • Rox Ogama is not as strong as Dax Novu. However, that doesn't mean he's multiversal. He was still defeated by the heatvision of Supermen and Green Lanterns
  • He can power the entire Blue Lantern Corps, including their Guardia. For context, Guardians have been able to contend with the likes of Parallax and Nekron. | Green Lantern Vol 4 #39 April 2009
    • Again, this isn't how the relationship between Green and Blue lanterns function. A Green Lantern doesn't not literally fuel the blue lantern energy.
    • Also, a Guardian isn't able to contend on their own with Emotional Entities.
    • Even if Hal were to power a Central Lantern Battery, that would still be some degree less than Galaxy level.
      • Green Lantern Vol 4 #25 January 2008
        • The energy of detonating the Yellow Power Battery and Warworld could destroy the entire Milky Way Galaxy.
        • All the surviving Green Lanterns needed to combine their energy to contain the explosion.
  • Hal created an entire Corps like Larfleeze. | Green Lantern Vol 4 #42 August 2009
    • This is under the assumption that Hal created 3600 legitimate copies of people not just constructs shaped like lanterns. To clarify, he didn't make 3600 constructs.
    • Larfleez's constructs are unique as the orange lantern literally assimilates a being's mind, body, and possibly soul into his ring.
  • Damaged Crispus Allen as a Black Lanter, doing more damage than the two Guardians present. | Green Lantern Vol 4 #50 March 2010
    • This another case of everybody fighting everybody.
    • The Spectre was stronger than the Lanterns and the guardian.
    • They needed to use Parallax just to fight on par with him.
  • Harmed Krona with the power of Io. | Green Lantern Vol 4 #62 March 2011
  • Green Lantern Vol 4 #67 August 2011
 
I think that Firestorm8080's evaluations make sense. Thank you for helping out.
 
"In no way did Hal match Parallax Ganthet's power. Ganthet was unfazed by Hal's blast until Hal pierced its tongue and mouth."

> Hal seared Parallax's face until only the skull remained. Parallax then began attacking Hal (with Hal's blast struggling against one of Parallax's tentacles, but not instantly being overpowered) and telling him to give up. Hal then replied; "I don't know how," and then Hal blasted Parallax through the mouth. This was after Parallax had bodied the other four Lanterns, which I already addressed earlier in the thread. So yeah, Hal, on his own, is holding his own quite well against Parallax.

"Numerous Green Lanterns were getting one-shotted by his heat vision and ice breath. What makes Hal any different?"

> Are... are you serious? Are you seriously asking what makes Hal Jordan any different from any fodder Green Lantern. How about the fact that Hal is consistently stated to be the greatest and most powerful Green Lantern, with the Ghardians stating this more than once and even The Spectre of all people reiterating that. He's not any normal Green Lantern, this should be obvious.

"Nero doesn't not scale to Ion."

> Already explained this earlier in the thread, Nero was able to stop a serious Ion while he swung a hammer at him, then broke the hammer out of Ion's grip and smacked him with it. Plus Kyle himself said Nero had been siphoning off his power.

"Even though Alexander was leeching off of Kyle and Ion's power, this was when he was still getting used to the energy and couldn't harness it properly. After his visions of Mogo, the power is different, and he could harness all of it. Kyle still one-shot him afterward with just some of the energy."

> Nero's body withstood it perfectly fine, Kyle only overloaded his mind.

"Rox Ogama is not as strong as Dax Novu. However, that doesn't mean he's multiversal. He was still defeated by the heatvision of Supermen and Green Lanterns."

> Yes, I literally said this already.

"Again, this isn't how the relationship between Green and Blue lanterns function. A Green Lantern doesn't not literally fuel the blue lantern energy."

> Again, that's not what the person that created the Blue Lantern Rings in the first place is saying. She, who knows the most about the rings than basically anybody, says Hal can power them like a battery. Ergo, he can. Your word doesn't override hers.

"Also, a Guardian isn't able to contend on their own with Emotional Entities."

> Two Guardians once trapped Parallax relatively easily, so...

"The energy of a main power battery without an entity is at most Galaxy level, and the lanterns, including Hal, couldn't stop it individually."

> Hal wasn't even there, and his ring was at 0.0% percent at that point in the issue.

"This another case of everybody fighting everybody."

> Just sounds like an excuse, tbh.

"The Spectre was stronger than the Lanterns and the guardian."

> Question, when did anybody say otherwise?

"They needed to use Parallax just to fight on par with him."

> First off, Parallax stomped him as a Black Lantern and still held the advantage against normal Spectre. Second of all, I was not saying Hal is on par with Black Lantern Spectre. Where you got that idea from, I don't know. I said Hal can damage it, and do more than the two Guardians present. Funnily enough, one of those Guardians was Sayd, the same person that said Hal could power her and her entire Corps...

"Krona alone easily tanked Hal's big blast of willpower, but Hal was only able to scratch Krona."

> Which still shows Hal being able to harm him, what's your point here?

"The entities are connected to a chain outside his body. Harming Krona wouldn't be a universal feat."

> Krona was clearly using Ion's power at that time, which he said, so... and Guardians by default are 2-C, as that Sinestro Corps War issue you've linked numerous times shows the Guardians fighting Superboy-Prime on their own and damaging him, even before the self-destruction. One of the Guardians literally says before he self-destructs; "And it is you finally playing with a power that eclipses your own." The other Guardians then seemed to contain said-self-destruction. So base Guardians are 2-C, Hal harming Krona is a 2-C feat even if you want to claim Krona wasn't using Ion's power (even though he was).

"This is especially true when Atrocitus, who is consistently comparable to Hal, directly bites into Krona without even drawing blood."

> Comparable to base Hal, not Hal using his peak willpower, yes.

"Torture doesn't scale to Multiversal. Krona is just using enough force to cause him pain."

> There is no reason to assume the entities are using less than 2-C power here.

"Krona may have been wearing multiple rings, but the entities are still in the other guardians. Killing Krona wouldn't be a universal feat."

> Guardians are 2-C, Krona has already shown he can use the power of the entities at will.
 
No, Ganthet's face wasn't reduced to a skull.

As Antvasima said, being "the greatest Green Lantern" does not automatically refer to power, but in competence. When was Hal stated to be "the most powerful Green Lantern."

As I said, even if Hal were to power a Central Lantern Battery, that would still be some degree less than Galaxy level, not 2-C.

Where did they say it only took 2 Guardians for Parallax when it took 36 Guardians to take down Madgod Sector 3600. You are basing Krona's abilities based on one sentence without any context of the actual event. The most you should take from his sentence is that he was part of the team that captured Parallax.

With Ion in his cahins, Krona is able to control willpower. Krona it literally controlling Hal's willpower blast to stop and not hit him. Krona isn't making any kind of shield, as shown when Atrocitus bites him. Krona knocks Hall off balance and as he gloats, Hal gets a lucky shot in. Even Hal's "Lights Out" punch doesn't do significant damage.
 
"No, Ganthet's face wasn't reduced to a skull."

> Bro, did you eve look at the sca?

"As Antvasima said, being "the greatest Green Lantern" does not automatically refer to power, but in competence. When was Hal stated to be "the most powerful Green Lantern.""

> With how Green Lantern rings work, competence kinda directly correlates to power.

"As I said, even if Hal were to power a Central Lantern Battery, that would still be some degree less than Galaxy level, not 2-C."

> Except he's powering a Guardian as well.

"Where did they say it only took 2 Guardians for Parallax when it took 36 Guardians to take down Madgod Sector 3600. You are basing Krona's abilities based on one sentence without any context of the actual event. The most you should take from his sentence is that he was part of the team that captured Parallax."

> Ahem. And before you say Parallax was weakened, I'd like evidence that he was literally infinitely weaker and no longer 2-C. Hell, the Guardians even made Darkseid agreed to a truce as opposed to attacking them. I wasn't even talking about Krona's statement, but now that you bring that up, it just further helps my case.

"With Ion in his cahins, Krona is able to control willpower. Krona it literally controlling Hal's willpower blast to stop and not hit him. Krona isn't making any kind of shield, as shown when Atrocitus bites him. Krona knocks Hall off balance and as he gloats, Hal gets a lucky shot in. Even Hal's "Lights Out" punch doesn't do significant damage."

> Hal damaged Krona with the power of Ion, yes. Hal's "Lights Out" punch wasn't meant to do damage, the fact that Krona was directly after shown to be trapped in a construct should have made that obvious.

Do you not have any further response for the Guardians scaling to Superboy-Prime, Hal surviving torture from all of the entities, Hal scaling to Nero or Hal damaged BL Crispus Allen?
 
It's Easter right now, and I have real life stuff to do. You need more moderator and other knowledgable member input because we're just gonna keep going back and forth on this.

You're telling us that both Ganthet's skin and bones are blue even though his teeth are white?

Why should the Guardians scale to imprisoning the weakened essence of Parallax if they used several power batteries that are connected to the Central Battery.

Again, you don't scale to torture without defined force being used. Gods and supernatural entiites have tortured people below them on multiple occasions.
 
Oh, right, it is Easter. I completely forgot about that, honestly. I'll ask some more people.

Edit: Nvm, you seem to have already asked everyone I was going to.

Considering the fact that his head is now in the shape of a skull, and missing his nose... like a skull...

Why wouldn't they scale to splitting Parallax's essence into four pieces and then sealing it into the batteries?

But why, exactly, would you assume that all of the entities are using less than 2-C power? Why not just use one entity at that point?
 
I think that Firestorm808 makes sense, and would appreciate his evaluation regarding what exactly that we should do here.
 
Sorry. I only just got around to reading this thread.

My thoughts are basically as follows:

LordTracer's proposals regarding additional powers and abilities are beautiful. Seriously. Phenomenal job. I see no problems there. His speed revisions are also nice. It's always good to see more scaling between the Justice Leaguers, but Hal Jordan is more consistently portrayed as slightly below peak Superma and significantly below peak Flash. DC is weird with scaling sometimes, so it makes sense that he'd have a few feats on par or even above those two, but I don't really think there's any need to make the comparison when Hal Jorda has plenty of respectable speed feats by himself. He's often seen flying between vast sectors of space in basically no time at all, and he's even flown all the way to the Source Wall in minutes on several occasions. I don't think scaling him to The Flash is warranted or necessary unless it's Jay Garrick, who consistently operates at much more reasonable levels than his younger counterparts.

As far as Hal Jordan and Larfleeze's tiers are concerned (the main source of contention, it would seem) it actually took me quite a bit of time to look through all of the sources linked in this thread. I think there might actually be some viable evidence for 2-C between Larfleeze and The Guardians of the Universe, but it's unclear, and I'd like some time to take a closer look at it before saying anything for certain. Unfortunately, the conversation mainly seems to have shifted over to Hal Jordan specifically and anybody who can scale to him. I'm mainly in agreement with Firestorm808 on that front, and I think his posts did a fantastic job of breaking down the problem behind each proposed revision. Most of Hal Jordan's crazier feats can be attributed to context, inconsistent storytelling, and vague showings with several feasible interpretations. However, that being said, there are clearly a couple points Tracer brought up that require very specific readings to not come across as far beyond Hal's current tier. I think those outliers main echo the problems we often have with DC and Marvel in the first place. The companies are not terribly consistent. All it takes is one writer who misunderstands a character or wants somebody to be universal, and then we're stuck with that feat forever. We can try to write it off or explain it away with any number of excuses, but it isn't always possible. It's just a glitch in the timeline that doesn't quite fit. Cal argues that we would treat these rare peak showing as Hal Jordan's new tier if the showings originated in any other series (in essence debating the legitimacy of our comic book scaling standards), and maybe there's a discussion to be had about that, but I don't think the Green Lanter revision thread is the place for it. In keeping with our current methods, Hal Jordan should probably stay well away from 2-C, unless he's Pre-Crisis.
 
Thanks for your input, I really appreciate it.

As for your concerns about the outlier stuff, that's kinda the purpose of the Varies tier. The power of a GL varies based on their willpower, and Hal has the greatest willpower of all Green Lanterns. As such, his 2-C feats can be attributed to him using more willpower (plus him not being rebooted during CoIE) and effectively negates them being written off as outliers. (Unless it's above 2-C, like his fight with ZH Parallax).

And I know you said you'd need to look at is closer before giving a proper conclusion, but if you think it's possible for the Guardians to be 2-C, then Hal should also be there at his peak, because he consistently scales to or above them.
 
Well, like I said, I would like a closer look at The Guardians before using that as any sort of justification in Hal Jordan's profile. I'm not exactly sold on them being 2-C either, and without a more in-depth analysis, they just seem vaguely powerful and relatively inconsistent to me. (Which to be fair, is what I've always thought of The Guardians; I've just never been given the opportunity to pin an exact number to it.)

There is some merit to the idea that Hal Jorda varies in power depening on his current will output, but this is not all that different from the other comic book specific writer dodges we've seen over the years to handwave the fact that different people write characters differently. Stan Lee once said that The Hulk's powers are controlled by his emotions to account for the fact that a lot of different people were going to be writing him, and it would result in a lot of different portrayals. Superman's powers vary depending on how much sunlight he's absorbed, and writers frequently use this to explain the inconsistencies in their various depictions. Our standard protocol usually dismisses these handwaves in favor of a more consistent and reliable wiki. It's also integral to maintaining usable scaling chains. From what I understand, the Varies tier is instead supposed to be reserved for people like Black Alice, who vary ridiculously and frequently as a core mechanic of their powers. I would not necessarily be opposed to opening up the Varies tier for more contenders, but that seems like a larger grievance with the underlying question of how we scale comic book characters. Not unlike Cal's complaint, I don't think this is the right place for it.
 
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