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Big Hal Jordan Revision

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Well, with the Hulk example, a Varies tier for him actually makes sense, as that has been established as a part of his character iirc. He's kinda in the same place Hal should be in. He has a usual consistent level, but that isn't his upper limit. (Hence the 'Varies. 4-B, up to 2-C')

Similarly, the main concept of a Green Lantern ring is that it works based on how much willpower the user is pumping out. And Hal has even gone beyond the limits of his ring before (such as when he killed Krona), so him having a Varies tier fits with his character and how his powers work. And also because he wasn't rebooted by CoIE, Hal retaining his 2-C makes even more sense.

Also if you apply the new powers, 4-B AP and speed justifications, my sandbox in the OP has all of it and you can just copy and paste from there.
 
I already have some of the 4-B feats in the toggle section, but here are some corrections.

 
Hm, not a bad point. Sorry. I'd just been meaning to get to this thread for a while, and the date slipped past me. Would it be better if we put a pin in this until later?
 
I'd say so, yeah. Let's wait until the forum move before coming back to this.
 
I think that we can probably make an exception and finish this up. There isn't much left to do here.

Anyway, ClassicNESfan can apply the accepted new abilities, but we should probably avoid messing with the tier at the moment.

In addition, Firestorm808 debunked quite a lot of examples above. Perhaps it would be a good idea to mention all of the debunks in a list at the bottom of the Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) page?
 
I think it might be in poor taste to make an extensive list of debunked feats at the bottom of a character's page. One or two notable misconceptions is fine, but once the list gets any longer than that, it really starts to look like you're saying "lol, this character isn't that strong. All those times you thought he was strong were wrong." Factual or not, it starts to look disrespectful. These pages are about celebrating characters, not dunking on them.
 
Okay. The problem is that we will repeatedly have to deal with the same arguments over and over otherwise, so I at least think that Hal Jordan, Superman, and similar characters, should have a link to blog posts with lists of the feats that are not accepted by us, along with the reasons.
 
I believe Firestorm's feat timeline project already sort of handles that, provided he adds the debunked feats to his list (along with the reasoning behind the debunk), and that blog is already linked on Hal Jordan's page. I understand the headaches that might be caused by not listing all debunked feats directly on the page itself, but I think it's very important that we don't come across like we're insulting certain characters and alienating their fans. Resources should be provided for readers to easily understand why certain feats have been rejected, but creating a small anti-respect thread for a profile is... well... disrespectful, in my opinion.
 
You have a point about if we list it directly on a page, but simply linking to blogs that list the feats that we have already debunked would save us an awful lot of repetitive future work. I have dealt with "upgrade Superman to insane degrees" discussion threads many times over the years I have been here, as well as for other characters, and strongly believe that this idea would help a lot.
 
Well, if such a thing must be implimented, then can I at least suggest we use more passive and detatched language than we appear to be using thus far? I've noticed Hal Jorda has this listed among his Post-Crisis feats:

"(Outlier and PIS) Hal Jordan one-shots Krona who absorbed all the Emotional Entities. The writers made Hal stronger than a guardian and 7 Emotional Entities put together somehow. This is the last issue before the New 52 reboot."

Maybe I'm soft, but that feels a little accusatory, you know? Shouldn't it look something more like this:

"Hal Jordan one-shots Krona who absorbed all the Emotional Entities. We consider this feat an outlier due to the unusually high power level Hal would have needed to defeat a guardian and 7 Emotional Entities put together. This is the last issue before the New 52 reboot."

Instead of calling your proposed blog a "Debunk Thread" or anything like that, perhaps we can call it a "List of Rejected Feats"? When writing about why a feat is not accepted, maybe we can use language like "We consider this inconsistent with so-and-so's much more common showings, such as..." rather than "The writers made so-and-so out to be ridiculously more powerful than this-and-that somehow, despite it making absolutely no sense in the context of..." Etc. Fiction is fictional. Some people scale characters differently than we do. I'd like it to be clear that our rejection of certain feats is nothing personal, and we're not blasting people who do things differently elsewhere. These are just the things we as a community have accepted/rejected in accordance with our evaluations and protocols.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm being overly cautious. I just don't want people to think we're picking on them, their favorite characters, or their favorite stories.
 
I obviously have no problem with your suggestions to hold a neutral tone. I am just tired of having to deal with the same arguments over and over year in and year out, and would appreciate if you and Firestorm808 help me out in this regard by creating "List of rejected feats" blogs that we then link to.
 
Sure. I'll see if I can cook something up for you. Sorry if that was a pain to get across. I'm just trying to make sure we're all on the same page.

It sounds like those arguments get you pretty exhausted. I hope you're alright. Not to lose the train of thought, but sometimes I worry about you, Ant. You seem stressed out a lot, and that's definitely something I struggle with on occasion. I hope you're enjoying yourself.
 
Thank you. No problem.

Well, I am usually very overworked and distracted by everything going wrong in the world at large, so I recurrently get stressed out.

That said, thanks to the partial wiki lockdown I currently have more free time beyond my ongoing workload.
 
Yeah, I feel that. Happens to me all the time too. And hey, I'm no therapist, but maybe you should use the new free time to look for some relaxing hobbies that keep you happy. Just a suggestion. I'm not trying to be a busybody, but if I were as booked as you are, I don't think I'd be enjoying myself- and if I wasn't enjoying myself, I'd either be cutting down my workload until I was enjoying myself or I'd be doing something else entirely. Maybe that's selfish to say. I dunno. That's just how I operate.
 
Anyway, we've drifted off subject a little. I can apply these revisions, but there's one last detail that needs clarification: Are we treating Post-Crisis Hal Jorda and Rebirth Hal Jorda as the same character or different characters? Because Post-Crisis is technically a different era, but some of the feats discussed on this thread are from Rebirth and we don't always separate every era of DC canon. Furthermore, Rebirth has sort of morphed into a continuation of Post-Crisis for this character, but I don't know if I'm being asked to include those feats as a part of Hal Jordan's Post-Crisis key or if I'm just being asked to make a third key. It hasn't been clarified.
 
1) Well, I am admittedly an OCD workaholic, but I am trying to find some time to relax and exercise more now.

2) I think that we treat Hal Jordan as the same character, as he does not seem to get rebooted, but should probably create different statistics keys for different eras.
 
Okay. In that case, what exactly do you want me to do here? Pre/Post/Rebirth? Or just leave it as Pre/Post for now and don't add anything from Rebirth?
 
The post-Crisis key should obviously only include feats from that era, whereas a post-Flashpoint key could also include feats from that era and Rebirth.
 
Okay. Done. Sorry about all that. Everything is edited and accounted for. I patched in all the updated abilities and their descriptions, and I added a third key. I think Hal Jordan's tier is fine where it is, but if we plan on doing any more with it, I suggest we wait until after the forum move. Sorry for the delay.
 
I don't think Hal gets Resistance to Death Manipulation.

  • Action Comics Vol 1 #642 March 1989
    • Teleportation, Healing, and Time Slow | On the verge of death after getting a gunshot to the chest, Hal's ring stretches "a fraction of a nanosecond" and teleports beings from all across the planet to decide someone worthy to carry on for him. He later decides that he, in fact, doesn't want to die, and heals himself with the ring.
 
I'd really prefer to wait until the forum move to continue discussion with his tier. I'd also prefer if everything wasn't just written off as debunked when I've contested essentially everything and explained why it's fine.
 
Oh! Sorry. I had originally expunged the death resistance, but when my first edit glitched out and I had to repost, I forgot to erase it a second time. Fixed now.
 
@LordTracer: Don't worry. We can wait until the forum move before doing any more. It's only fair that you get a chance to make your case on a thread that won't be deleted in a few days.
 
Well, the thread has gone on for a while now, and it certainly took me some time to catch up. Perhaps Tracer could make a continuation thread focused solely on Hal Jordan's tiering after all this? That could make the arguments less buried and more accessible. As it stands, I'm relatively unclear on which lines of reasoning you've abandoned and which you are still adamant about after hashing things out with Firestorm808.
 
@Classic

Thank you for helping out. I would appreciate if you and Firestorm808 could prepare blogs that take up all of the rejected feats for Superman and Hal Jordan respectively, and explain valid reasons for this. We might need them for certain other DC and Marvel comicbook characters as well.

I agree with Spino about that we should wait with discussing tiers until after the forum move though.
 
ClassicNESfan said:
Well, the thread has gone on for a while now, and it certainly took me some time to catch up. Perhaps Tracer could make a continuation thread focused solely on Hal Jordan's tiering after all this? That could make the arguments less buried and more accessible. As it stands, I'm relatively unclear on which lines of reasoning you've abandoned and which you are still adamant about after hashing things out with Firestorm808.
Click to expand...
Sure, I can do that.
 
@Ant: Not a problem. I'm glad I could help! After the dust has settled, I'll do my best to look into the idea of creating a solid place in our new forum to hold an index of rejected feats.
 
The new forum is not the right place for that. I would appreciate if you and Firestorm start to handle it here in this wiki via the blog post format. You can start quickly if you wish.
 
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