Beyond's Qualitative Superiority (JORGE JOESTAR)

[DRW001]

Hi all. As the title of this thread suggests, this CRT will show how Beyond from JORGE JOESTAR has qualitative superiority and R>F transcendence over the world of JoJo's itself. All of the links provided will show the full context of the respective scene, and as such may go on a bit longer than just the quoted lines here.

Beyond is the Literal Author of the world of JORGE JOESTAR and views all of it as a story​

"….........." "Let me say exactly what I mean. Say that I'm Sherlock Holmes. Then I'm certain that I have something outside of this world serving as my Arthur Conan Doyle. I am as certain of this as I am certain that I am a detective. And I have a name for this thing guiding me from somewhere not of this world. I call it: Beyond." ... Tsukumojuku wasn't done spouting nonsense. "But here I am speaking in the present tense, when really, this is all in the past. Like I said at the start, I no longer have the certainty required to call myself a detective. My Beyond has abandoned me. I'm still me, but my role in this world is no longer guaranteed by Beyond. Beyond has chosen a new protagonist for this world...for this story. You, Jorge Joestar. This is the last thing I'm certain of." Hunh? What in the...? ... He blinked at me. "Ah! Ha! Ha! No, I doubt it. Your story already has monsters and mystic powers in it, so I doubt you'll end up being a detective," he chuckled. "I think you'll play the character of Jorge Joestar in a story called Jorge Joestar."

—Tsukumojuku to Jorge (Chapter 1)

"No. I call this god "Beyond" - and I'm certain that this god has lined you and the other Jorge Joestar up for a reason, for some greater purpose. It must have been Beyond's power that sent me here." "And not because I solved the 15-puzzle?" "You did. But think of it this way: Beyond set you on that path, and summoned me here. See? What most people imagine when they hear the word god is something all-powerful, that never explains itself to humans, that acts in a seemingly arbitrary fashion. Irrational, devoid of logic. But not here. The god I call Beyond prepared that 15-puzzle for you. I believe that there was a reason why Beyond had to do that. You're a detective, and to some extent the nature of the world becomes predictable. Lords knows, as a detective myself, I'm sick of explaining to people that because I am there, everything has meaning. Just like the arrival of a detective in a mystery novel. In a sense, Beyond is a mystery novelist. Beyond is writing a mystery novel in which you are the detective. And you should be aware of that fact."

—Tsukumojuku to Joji (Chapter 2)

Think. What did believing in Beyond entail? It meant there was an author writing a story with me as the main character.

—Jorge believes in Beyond #1 (Chapter 13)

I'd been told, Believe in Beyond, and you will overcome your fate. So I'd tried to believe. Believing in Beyond meant...there was an author writing a story with me as the main character. And in a story, you couldn't have things that didn't make sense or just showed up out of the blue. So I had to create the flow. What did 'narrative flow' mean here?

—Jorge believes in Beyond #2 (Chapter 15)

As you can see from the statements above, Beyond views the world of JORGE JOESTAR and JoJos as a whole as nothing but a story. Beyond is an author writing a mystery novel where Jorge and Joji are the protagonists, and where Tsukumojuku lost his status as a protagonist, eluding to Otaro Maijo's previous novel. This is clear indication of R>F transcendence and qualitative superiority. Tsukumojuku makes this most obvious with his comparison of himself being Sherlock Holmes and Beyond being Arthur Conan Doyle; the real life creator of the fictional character Sherlock Holmes.

Beyond is not a part of the world and transcends it​

It has been stated multiple times that Beyond is not within the world of JORGE JOESTAR, with it being said to be outside and not of the world. The JoJoveller guidebook goes into a little more detail and says that Beyond controls the protagonist from a reality that transcends the world itself.

"….........." "Let me say exactly what I mean. Say that I'm Sherlock Holmes. Then I'm certain that I have something outside of this world serving as my Arthur Conan Doyle. I am as certain of this as I am certain that I am a detective. And I have a name for this thing guiding me from somewhere not of this world. I call it: Beyond."

—Tsukumojuku to Jorge (Chapter 1)

For the first time in god knows how long, I remembered the words my friend Tsukumojuku had said. And I have a name for this thing guiding me from somewhere not of this world. I call it: Beyond.

—Jorge remembering what Tsukumojuku told him (Chapter 13)

BEYOND An entity that controls the protagonist in a place that transcends the world

—JoJoveller Stands Page 317

The Reality-Fiction page on the wiki currently says:

For example, if a character were to view an entire space-time continuum as fiction, they would be superior to such an extent that it would be viewed not as a small portion or constituent of their reality, but as trivialized into nonexistence by comparison, such that their higher world is wholly irreducible to anything pertaining to the lower world. This complete superceding of the lower world's nature lands all such characters at 1-A.

The JoJo's cosmology more than fits that criteria as it contains infinite universes in which there are characters that have abilities such as dimensional walls that lead to these infinite universes, being able to move into the boundary between dimensions and move freely within that infinite space. JORGE JOESTAR itself has infinitely expanding, universal sized space-time constructs. 'The world' as described here in fact encompasses everything in JJ including universes, parallel worlds, history, etc. Beyond transcends all of this and, as confirmed previously, views all of it as fictitious and nothing more than a story, which Beyond is the author of. This subsequently places Beyond at a 1-A rating

Beyond is referred to as ‘All-Powerful’, ‘Omnipotent’ and God/The Trinity​

Tsukumojuku laughed. "Your Beyond is making it happen. I'm sure this isn't a task just anyone could accomplish. For a Miracle like this to occur, you need the Name of God. 'God' is words. Words are names." This was even more cryptic, but if he was rabbiting on about Beyond again then this was definitely Tsukumojuku, so I relaxed. I'd missed that, too. "Is your weird ass name the name of God?" "Yes. Tsukumojuku is 9, 10, 9, 10, 9. If you flip the kanji for 9, 九, you get the astrological symbol for Jupiter, ♃, Jupiter being the Roman name for the Greek god Zeus. The God of Gods. The kanji for ten, 十, is a cross; so my name has three all-powerful gods linked together by two crosses. If God is the Trinity, then God can be split into three. I am in the Arrow Cross House, I am here, and I am trying to connect to a third me. You have go to where he is. Take my hand."

—Tsukumojuku describing the Trinity and his name (Chapter 7)

If I used Beyond, Tsukumojuku would come. What I needed was a way to use it. Think. What narrative would allow him to come? I remember the last thing he'd said to me. The nature of my name suggests that we'll meet again, one more time. Right. His name? Come to think of it, fifteen years ago he'd said some nonsense about his name. Tsukumojuku. Tsukumojuku is 9, 10, 9, 10, 9. My name has three all-powerful gods linked together by two crosses. The name of God. Right. Because he had the name of God he'd come for me again. But why had it put it like that? What was there to his name? There must be something. There must be a meaning to that "all-powerful god" and "cross". I remembered that I'd borrowed a Japanese dictionary from Tsukumojuku once and flipped through it a bit. "Argh! Show me your ****! Heh heh heh! What the...that ain't your ****! What the hell! Grown-up ***** are gross! That's disgusting! I'm gonna puke!" Antonio shrieked, and warm vomit splattered down on my exposed crotch. Chewed up bits of William Cardinal's insides. Japanese characters don't just symbolize sounds. They also show meaning, and there's breadth to that meaning. This breadth is why 九 could mean '9' and "omnipotent god." And why 十 could be '10' and a "cross". The shape of the kanji was a metaphorical symbol. In Japanese, you could manipulate that meaning to 'convey' that one thing was another. Force open a path, and allow meaning to pass down it. So back to Tsukumojuku. 九十九十九. Him giving me that dictionary when he left felt like the work of Beyond to me. It let me understand. I was extremely glad I'd learned just how broad the meaning of Japanese words could be.

—Jorge trying to use Beyond to get Tsukumojuku to come (Chapter 13) (long read)

At last Dio realized what I was doing. He screamed. "No, no! Stoooooop! That's my bodyyyyy! I trained it, I made it the ultimate being! It's mine! Noooooooooooooo!" I ignored him, and put Jonathan Joestar's head right on the fresh cut stump of the mummified 'holy man'. Jonathan Joestar's head looked even fresher, and it matched the cut perfectly. This was the place where it belonged, and now it was back. Human bodies had such strong identities, I thought; all of this was only possible because me and the other 'Jorge Joestar' and Dio all had Beyonds, but those three Beyonds were actually one. The Trinity.

—Joji confirming that all 3 Beyonds were 1 as the Trinity (Chapter 16)

All 3 Gods in the Trinity that are described as all-powerful and omnipotent within Tsukumojuku’s name are in fact the 3 Beyonds that are by the side of Joji, Jorge and Dio. As later described by Tsukumojuku, God is the Trinity, and God can be split into three:

• Jorge is with Tsukumojuku in England (I am here)
• Joji is in the Arrow Cross House (I am in the Arrow Cross House)
• Dio is in the Coffin (I am trying to connect to a third me)

All of this occurs at once after Tsukumojuku’s death. (Keep in mind that Beyond uses Tsukumojuku as a literal plot device in order to get the ball rolling, so Tsukumojuku having all this information within his name is very intentional and literal) At the end of the novel, all 3 Beyonds are revealed to actually be one as the Trinity (God), confirming what was said above with the 3 all-powerful Gods, further highlighting Beyond's transcendent nature over the world of JoJo.

EDIT: Here are some scans showing Tsukumojuku's acting as Beyond's plot device (or instrument) despite being dead from the opening chapter

We all gasped. "Solved it!?" Julio shrieked. "What a load of crap! We found Antonio's body, and the police had only just arrived when we left! That was less than an hour ago! You're not a cop – how would you even know he was dead!? And here you are claiming to have solved the case!?" "Because I did," Tsukumojuku said. "But how...!?" Julio said, at a loss for words. "You know that. Because I'm a detective, Julio Gonzales. I happened to pass the Torres residence mere moments after you came bursting out of it – some would say fate brought me there," he added, cryptically. Tsukumojuku turned to look at me. "But it seems fate is leading me in a different direction." As I stood my ground against his piercing stare, I wondered how he could speak in such a grown-up, mannered fashion. Was he really eleven? No – he hadn't had a birthday yet, so he was only ten. Then it struck me. This was the first time I'd ever talked to him face to face. "Um," I said, my voice shaking. "So...you solved the murder of Antonio Torres?" Was Lisa Lisa involved? "So I thought." Past tense? "So...you didn't?" Instead of answering, he asked, "Jorge, have you ever read a detective novel?" "…? A detective novel? Um...I think we have some in the house, but..." "It's a genre of novels that began about sixty years ago, in 1841, when the American writer Edgar Allen Poe published a story called The Murders in the Rue Morgue. The salient points of the genre, obviously, are that the murder appears to be impossible, and is then solved by a genius detective." "Obviously? How would I know that? My mum said they weren't for children to read. I don't like scary books anyway. What's your point?" "But you understand the concept of a detective?" "Like Sherlock Holmes?" "Exactly. A fictional device, a role destined to always arrive at the truth in the end." "So?" "That's me." "...okay? So what?" "A detective surveys all evidence, understands the case in full, and at last arrives at a perfect solution."

—Tsukumojuku admission of being a fictional device (Chapter 1)

So, time to go investigate. I kept the pebble, Daibakusho Curry took the rubber ball, and Runbaba 12 the orphaned shoe. Runbaba 12 tried to convince us to trade with him but Buccellati roared, "Enough!" and I looked at Narancia and saw someone standing next to him. It was Tsukumojuku. "….........!" He grinned at me. "Hey! I am your instrument. A person needs your help. I'll take you to them." He grabbed my shoulder."Yo, what the ****?" Narancia yelled, pushing me aside and pointing his knife at Tsukumojuku. In that instant we jumped. "Whoops. Brought an anomaly along, but... it all means something, I'm sure. Bye!" Tsukumojuku vanished, leaving me and Narancia. On the H.G. Wells, an American spacecraft launched by NASA. Passing around the dark side of Mars on its journey to thered planet, about to make a new discovery. Namely, that, in addition to Phobos and Diemos, Mars had a previously undetected third moon. Previously undetected because Mars had always been between it and the Earth

—Tsukumojuku takes Joji to The H.G. Wells spacecraft (Chapter 8)

"My name is Enrico Pucci. May I ask your names?" Narancia didn't appear to speak English, so I answered, telling him my name and address. This made Pucci's eyes widen momentarily. "? What?" "...nothing," he said. Clearly there was something. Hey! I am your instrument. Someone needs you. I'll take you to him. That's what Tsukumojuku had said. Who was it who needed me? What did he mean, he was my instrument? He seemed as if he knew everything, understood everything, but threw me off the deep end without even attempting to explain. Without even explaining how he came to be still alive. ...was it even possible that he wasn't dead? I couldn't believe that he'd been faking his death. I'd seen a photograph of Tsukumojuku, his head hanging back, cut through the neck until it was barely attached to his body. Was there any chance that photo had been a mistake, a trap, or a fake?

—Joji remembers what Tsukumojuku said (Chapter 10)

Pucci's eyes gleamed. "It is. You're a good detective. You always find the right answer. But not where it concerns the onewho brought you here. The one who vanished soon after. You don't understand what Tsukumojuku Kato said. Yet." Hey! I am your instrument. Someone needs you. I'll take you to him. He'd read my memories. By pulling that disc out of me. Watching my surprise, Pucci smiled, as if having a very good day. "Detectives are a wonderful thing. Everything has meaning, hunh?" "There's a important, inflexible law that defines the world." "…...........?" "Everything has meaning. Nothing is out of place." "God is everywhere," Pucci said. "God is the word. The word has meaning. Thus, everything in this world has meaning. I see! You coming here, too, has meaning. And you were brought here because someone here has need of you. Who could that be?"

—Pucci's explanation (Chapter 10)

Other misc stuff/Trivia​

• Other instances in the novel also point towards the Trinity concept, such as the Beyond by Dio’s side being depicted as Jesus.
• The JORGE JOESTAR novel was first released on September 19th, 2012. In Japanese, September 19th can be written as 9-19, which is 九十九. The paperback version was then released on December 19th, 2017. In Japanese, 19 is written as 十九. Combine the two together and you get 九十九十九 or Tsukumojuku, the name of God as described in this novel. So yeah, it gets really meta.
• The number 19 above having major importance is no coincidence as it is also an important number in The Simons Case, a book within Ryūsui Seiryōin's JDC Series, where a number of characters from that book also feature in this novel.

TL;DR​

Beyond has very evident R>F transcendence and qualitative superiority over the JORGE JOESTAR world and JoJo's itself. Beyond views all of JoJo's as just a fictional story in which it is an author writing a mystery novel in the most literal of ways. Beyond exists outside and not of the world of JoJo's, with JoJoveller specifying that Beyond controls the protagonist from a reality that transcends the world of JoJo's. Beyond has also been described as 'All-Powerful' and 'Omnipotent' through the name of God and as The Trinity in addition to being depicted as Jesus; all further highlighting Beyond's transcendent nature.

(Do keep in mind though that since Beyond itself doesn't even have a profile currently (I am working on it though), the only characters that technically benefit from this right now are Joji and Novel Dio who get smurf hax via believing in Beyond)

Bold means Mod/Admin vote

Agree: Da3ggman, Chariot190 (retired mod), Spicy78, Duragoji123, Ultima_Reality, Chritin, Infinitinet, Nemu13, Vyfourthaccount, Harith0cell, Elizhaa, Planck69

Disagree:

Neutral:

 

[Karabach-barabach]

Disagree, no questions asked

 

[DRW001]

Disagree, no questions asked

 

[Da3ggman]

Yeah, this all seems to check out. Good job!

 

[Chariot190]

This is super self-evident given Jorge Joestar is actually a sequel to another book in a meta-sense, that involves a bunch of R>F and meta bullshit, which Tsukumojuku himself calls back to (He himself is more meta than say, Deadpool, that's his whole ass gimmick). (Popular meta novel Disco Wednesday, is in the same line of books as Jorge Joestar for example too, and Joji's time dilation, is derived from a past book). Jorge Joestar is, in and of itself a meta book, it isn't directly connected to them, but it does directly rip and then repurpose stuff from them, Tsuku, being the meta **** he is, even acknowledges that in this new book, he is no longer the main character.

Idk much about the whole R>F tiering, but whatever we treat it as, it'd apply.

As an aside, the Cube House is also directly stated to be 4-D, so at worse it'd be low 1-C.
"「杉本泰美」という人感を持つ、4次元空間の建物。"

 

[Spicy78]

1-a jojos is based af, following

 

[Agnaa]

Commenting as someone who has read other Maijo works, but not JORGE.

The first two parts of "Beyond is referred to as ‘All-Powerful’, ‘Omnipotent’ and God/The Trinity" are nonsense; those quotes are about Tsukumojuku, not about Beyond. Tsukumojuku was established as having had the favour of Beyond before the events of the story, but not any more. And regardless, he is a distinct entity from the being that he has the favour of.

The other books involving him had similar explanations, and they had no Beyond or anything similar to it.

This is super self-evident given Jorge Joestar is actually a sequel to another book in a meta-sense, that involves a bunch of R>F and meta bullshit, which Tsukumojuku himself calls back to (He himself is more meta than say, Deadpool, that's his whole ass gimmick). (Popular meta novel Disco Wednesday, is in the same line of books as Jorge Joestar for example too, and Joji's time dilation, is derived from a past book). Jorge Joestar is, in and of itself a meta book, it isn't directly connected to them, but it does directly rip and then repurpose stuff from them, Tsuku, being the meta **** he is, even acknowledges that in this new book, he is no longer the main character.

While those books are incredibly meta, they don't actually have anything that qualifies for R>F. Disco's meta allusions never go above the place where the story takes place, while the Tsukumojuuku book has many very explicit anti-feats.

Still, I don't expect that supplementary stuff to be particularly important for whether this thread passes or not. And I don't expect there to be actual concrete anti-feats that people are just overlooking, given the "The three Beyonds are actually one" stuff.

 

[Chariot190]

The first two parts of "Beyond is referred to as ‘All-Powerful’, ‘Omnipotent’ and God/The Trinity" are nonsense; those quotes are about Tsukumojuku, not about Beyond. Tsukumojuku was established as having had the favour of Beyond before the events of the story, but not any more. And regardless, he is a distinct entity from the being that he has the favour of.

They're about both, double meaning type shit (or more like quad meaning). Which the novel goes out of it's to way specify actually.
Tsukumojuku's very name, represents Beyond in the context of the novel. And through that context, Jorge learns what Beyond is.

Everything Tsukumojuku does in the novel, is Beyond's work (they flatout say this), as well. He was killed and post-mortem acts as a plot-device for Beyond to move the central plot pieces in the story together (which includes dumb shit like teleporting Jorge in the scene below from his fated death to the 37th universe 10,000,000,000,000,000 years into the future in Japan, Joji and Narancia from Japan to the HG Wells 100km from Mars, etc).

Second one especially actually, that whole scene is Jorge figuring out how to use Beyond using tsuku's name as a hint.
Though, both those quotes happen way, way after Tsuku had them, specifically, Tsuku had long since been dead already, he had his head cut off (I actually forget by who? Kira, Pucci? eh it dont matter, just know his ass was straight up dead). When those lines were said, tsuku is nothing but a plot device for Beyond, as an act of relay, which, he promptly does.

Here's the full scene below.

Spoiler: wall of text

""C'mon, c'mon, c'mon! This is boring! God, you're pathetic,
Jorge'" Antonio howled. "Can't you at least go out like a man!? Or
are you gonna die like this!?"

I'm not going to die! But why was I still so convinced of
that? Because I thought Tsukumojuku was going to appear out of
nowhere and save me again?

I did. I mean, he'd said:

We'll meet again, one more time.

Cool. Then, could that be now? Come on!

But he didn't. Of course not. There was no sign of him
coming at all. No sign...?

Fifteen years ago, when Tsukumojuku showed himself at the
Motorize Manor, there’d been no 'signs' of him coming. So why had
he come?

He’d said, I'm here to help you. He'd been there for me.
He'd come if I needed him.

"**** it, then die! Heh heh! Your entire life was a waste! It
was a waste of my time ever dealing with someone like you! You're
such a worthless, pathetic fool that your very existence ruins the
lives of everyone around you! You should never have been born!"

Tsukumojuku had also said this:

Your Beyond is making it happen.

Right. He'd talked like that a lot, about the power I had.
Beyond. I'd completely forgotten about it again, but I remembered
now. I had some sort of god on my side.

Believe in Beyond, and you will overcome your fate.

I remembered something else, now. Tom Petty's prophecy.

Master Tom Petty went and said something ridiculous about you dying around the time we get married, Lisa Lisa had said,
and her fears had come to pass. I hadn't imagined it would actually
be the day of, but anyway, I was destined to die here. But Tom
Petty had said something else. "I dunno. Up to you". That's right,
this was up to me. That god may not have made up its mind,
either. But if you wish to go on living, you must follow that god.
There was no other way. If I was to survive this, I had to put my
faith in this Beyond.

Okay. Let's believe. With my head all woozy from the hail
of poker thwacks Antonio was unleashing on it.

"Arrghhhhh! You're this pointless without an airplane? Do
you even have a ****!? Been a while, but let's find out!" Antonio
moved Cardinal's hand and pulled my trousers and underwear off
but I just let him. I couldn't afford to waste energy resisting. Think.
What did believing in Beyond entail?

It meant there was an author writing a story with me as the
main character.

Then come on and save me! I thought, but I know there was
a reason why they couldn't. Once Tsukumojuku had vanished and I
was all alone I’d read a lot of novels, so I knew. Stories had plots,
they had narrative flow, and you couldn't have things that didn't
make sense or just showed up out of the blue.

I had to create the flow.

Beyond existed. That's why Tsukumojuku had come fifteen
years ago. He’d come even though I didn't believe in Beyond at the
time because...I thought about that for a minute, and decided it was
to convince me that Beyond existed. And at the same time, teach
me how to use Beyond.

"God damn, your ass is pale! Heh heh! Watch it bounce!"
Antonio yelled, hitting me so hard with the poker half my cheek
was torn off. "Just how soft is it!? What's it made of, gelatin!? Look
at it wobble!"

If I used Beyond, Tsukumojuku would come. What I needed
was a way to use it. Think.

What narrative would allow him to come?

I remember the last thing he’d said to me.

The nature of my name suggests that we'll meet again,
one more time.

Right. His name? Come to think of it, fifteen years ago he'd
said some nonsense about his name.

Tsukumojuku.

Tsukumojuku is 9,10, 9, 10, 9.

My name has three all-powerful gods linked together by
two crosses.

The name of God.

Right. Because he had the name of God he'd come for me
again. But why had it put it like that? What was there to his name?
There must be something.

There must be a meaning to that 'all-powerful god' and

'cross'.

I remembered that I'd borrowed a Japanese dictionary from
Tsukumojuku once and flipped through it a bit.

"Argh! Show me your ****! Heh heh heh! What the...that
ain't your ****! What the hell! Grown-up ***** are gross! That's
disgusting! I'm gonna puke!" Antonio shrieked, and warm vomit
splattered down on my exposed crotch. Chewed up bits of William
Cardinal's insides.

Japanese characters don't just symbolize sounds. They also
show meaning, and there's breadth to that meaning. This breadth is
why fi could mean '9' and 'omnipotent god.' And why could be
TO’ and a 'cross'. The shape of the kanji was a metaphorical symbol.
In Japanese, you could manipulate that meaning to 'convey' that one
thing was another. Force open a path, and allow meaning to pass
down it.

So back to Tsukumojuku. A+/L+ tl. Him giving me that
dictionary when he left felt like the work of Beyond to me. It let me
understand. I was extremely glad I’d learned just how broad the
meaning of Japanese words could be.

Japanese used kanji. Kanji had several different readings.
The kanji fi had three readings. "Kyuu", "Kokono", and "Ku."

The kanji + had five. "Ji~", ”Juu", "Shuu", "To", and "Too".
"Kokono" and "Too" sounded like "Here" and "Far".

Here, far, here, far, here.

A name that started 'here', went 'far' away twice, and then
came back.

"Shit! Your dick made me throw up!" Antonio yelled, and
raised the poker, but I'd made it in time. I'd been trying to focus on
thinking but I'd been panicking on the inside. Fortunately, I'd done
it.

He went far away, and came back twice. After he vanished
in America, he'd come back once in the Motorize Manor, and
vanished again. So he’d come back once more. Here.

"That's right."

And there he was, still fifteen years old, standing by my side
and looking down at me. "At last you decided to believe in Beyond,
Jorge," Tsukumojuku said. "It took you getting this bloody? You
sure are a troublesome protagonist." He bent down, and took my
shoulders. "What?" Antonio said. "Tsukumojuku Kato!? Why are
you still young!?" He attacked, but his swing met only air.


"Eh?" I said. "We're not going back to the wedding?"
Tsukumojuku looked sorry. "You've got another role to play.
But don't worry, it's a role your Beyond prepared for you. Although
that doesn't guarantee it'll lead to a happy ending."

"Uh...then what's the point?"

"Don't worry! You'll find the meaning yourself!"

"Oh, come on! So...where are we?"

Tsukumojuku and I were standing in some foreign land. Not
anywhere in Europe. I could see a cluster of houses in the distance
that were nice-looking, sturdily constructed, but not anything you'd
see in Europe. The green crops growing in square-cut, farm-like
plots of mud were clearly not wheat.

"This is Japan," Tsukumojuku said. "A country town called
Morioh. Although at the moment, it is floating upside-down in the
Pacific."

I had no idea what that last bit meant, but the rest came as
quite a surprise. "Japanese!? Why are we here ]!"

"Because your role is to be played here."

"Wow, Japan...it's a beautiful country."

"Thank you. I believe you're here to solve a mystery."

"Hunh? What kind?"

"Murder. I'm the victim. It's all yours, buddy."

".!? Hunh!? What...."

"Meeting you and being your friend has been an honor. I'm
proud of you, Jorge Joestar. The world to come is in your hands!"

And with that, Tsukumojuku vanished into thin air, or I
woke from a waking dream. I wasn't sure which. Either way the
instant he was gone the brightly lit Morioh landscape went black as
pitch, and I found myself lying on a cold night road, with neither
stars nor moon in the sky above. My body was covered in blood
from the beating Antonio Torres gave me. My skull was fractured,
and chunks of flesh had been torn from my back and ass. I was in a
hell of a state.

Barely alive, but alive. "

The full context of the scene is Jorge, getting his ass beat, understanding how to utilize Beyond via the hints in Tsuku's name. The "omnipotent god" mentioned thrice within Tsuku's name, represents his, Joji's, and Dio Brando's Beyond, ie, The Trinity, aka, just Beyond as one whole. Tsuku shows up (post-mortem again), because Beyond uses Tsuku as a literal plot device to movie the story forward and interact with his chosen ones. (Which is what the other line is talking about, the "im in 3 places" thing, is talking about how Beyond is with Jorge, Joji, and Dio Brando, ie, the Trinity among other stuff.

There's actual double meaning to all this shit you wouldn't really get at a glance but this aint my thread so idc, there's quite a few extra scans and lines that could be added to flesh this out, but that aint on me.

But eh, I'm sure OP can do a better job of explaining, I don't exactly have any Beyond scans on hand bar the single one in the OP and one where Petty calls Beyond a type of God and as long as ya believe in it you won't die (which the above scene calls back to actually).
(And that was moreso because I was slowing overhauling Novel Kars, who has nothing to do with Beyond but rather the few Stands mentioned on that same page like Dune and the Cube House).

The other books involving him had similar explanations, and they had no Beyond or anything similar to it.

Well, yeah? Beyond is JoJo equilavent of the triplets (I think that's the intent anyway?). Like obviously not them, but JJ is basically a JDC book thing with a JoJo theming, Beyond takes the role of the obligatory author shoe-in, but tweaked to fit the context and setting and vibes of JoJo, but like it has the some position as them as "an author writing a book".

While those books are incredibly meta, they don't actually have anything that qualifies for R>F. Disco's meta allusions never go above the place where the story takes place, while the Tsukumojuuku book has many very explicit anti-feats.

Still, I don't expect that supplementary stuff to be particularly important for whether this thread passes or not. And I don't expect there to be actual concrete anti-feats that people are just overlooking, given the "The three Beyonds are actually one" stuff.

Was moreso referring to the novel with the triplets. Disco was me simply mentioning the most popular book from said author, as an example of a book JJ draws from. Wouldve been more specific using the book with the beyond time shit (it's been so long but the book where bro could like, see past the curtains of time and whatnot, forget how it was described) but I frugot what that one was called (Joji's time slow when he focuses, due to his internal time no longer running with the outside, is a pretty hard rip of that for example).

 

[Agnaa]

They're about both, double meaning type shit (or more like quad meaning). Which the novel goes out of it's to way specify actually.
Tsukumojuku's very name, represents Beyond in the context of the novel. And through that context, Jorge learns what Beyond is.

Maybe from other quotes, but I don't think so from the stuff presented here.

Second one especially actually, that whole scene is Jorge figuring out how to use Beyond using tsuku's name as a hint.
Though, both those quotes happen way, way after Tsuku had them, specifically, Tsuku had long since been dead already, he had his head cut off (I actually forget by who? Kira, Pucci? eh it dont matter, just know his ass was straight up dead). When those lines were said, tsuku is nothing but a plot device for Beyond, as an act of relay, which, he promptly does.

Here's the full scene below.

I don't read that as Tsuku's name being a hint at using Beyond. I think the logic of that scene is:

1. I need help from Beyond.
2. Beyond, as an author, would care about narrative flow.
3. Tsukumojuku is associated with Beyond, and said he'd meet me again.
4. Tsukumojuku said his name would help me see him again.
5. So I need to deduce the right narrative flow from that name that would cause Tsukumojuku to reappear, since that would cause Beyond to appear and help me.

So Tsukumojuku's name isn't meant to be a hint at Beyond's nature or anything. It's about Tsukumojuku, and would justify him reappearing, and Beyond helping.

Well, yeah? Beyond is JoJo equilavent of the triplets (I think that's the intent anyway?). Like obviously not them, but JJ is basically a JDC book thing with a JoJo theming, Beyond takes the role of the obligatory author shoe-in, but tweaked to fit the context and setting and vibes of JoJo, but like it has the some position as them as "an author writing a book".

By the triplets, I think you're referring to the book Tsukumojuuku, where the main character Tsukumo Juuku is eventually revealed to have originally been born as three conjoined triplets with connected brains. Where they aren't really a transcendent entity (unless you read the ending as meaning that the events of the book are a dream invented by him to cope with his trauma). So I don't think that's a helpful equivalence to draw here.

Was moreso referring to the novel with the triplets. Disco was me simply mentioning the most popular book from said author, as an example of a book JJ draws from. Wouldve been more specific using the book with the beyond time shit (it's been so long but the book where bro could like, see past the curtains of time and whatnot, forget how it was described) but I frugot what that one was called (Joji's time slow when he focuses, due to his internal time no longer running with the outside, is a pretty hard rip of that for example).

This is getting a bit too far from the topic of this thread, so ima respond on your wall.

 

[DRW001]

But eh, I'm sure OP can do a better job of explaining, I don't exactly have any Beyond scans on hand bar the single one in the OP and one where Petty calls Beyond a type of God and as long as ya believe in it you won't die (which the above scene calls back to actually).

This scan right?

There's also some other author stuff with Rohan theorizing about powers being greater than a stand, calling it 'Beyond', which Joji said that name was already taken and noted that Authors were truly frightening with their synchronicity.

Also this scan about detectives (Tsukumojuku) acting the part and creating the flow and the mood the same way that Beyond did.

Though, both those quotes happen way, way after Tsuku had them, specifically, Tsuku had long since been dead already, he had his head cut off (I actually forget by who? Kira, Pucci? eh it dont matter, just know his ass was straight up dead).

iirc Tsuku was killed by Antonio Torres, which then Giorno disguised up the murder as a Japanese folklore tale, which led to Jorge investigating it and driving the plot forward.

But adding on top of what you've already said, Beyond literally has Tsukumojuku be killed in the first chapter no less. Beyond also used Tsukumojuku as a plot device to do teleporting shenanigans to send Jorge to Lisa Lisa in Rome to gain an alibi whilst he's being suspected of murdering Kenton Motorize in England.

Tsukumojuku says his name has three all-powerful Gods within it, and that if God is the Trinity, then God can be split into three, plus the 'I am in three places' stuff (name drops Arrow Cross House where Joji is at that moment). There are three Beyonds, each helping their respective protag where they are, and those three Beyonds were one as the Trinity. There are overlaps here between Tsukumojuku's name and Beyond's nature. (Their appearences may also be the same if you look into Maijo's other works but im not sure if they're canon to each other.)

(Ultimately though, the supplementry evidence of 'all-powerful, omnipotent gods' etc isn't the main focus of this thread, which is Beyond having clear R>F transcendence over JoJos, and shouldn't impact the CRT too much one way or another)

 

[Chariot190]

Maybe from other quotes, but I don't think so from the stuff presented here.

I don't read that as Tsuku's name being a hint at using Beyond. I think the logic of that scene is:

1. I need help from Beyond.
2. Beyond, as an author, would care about narrative flow.
3. Tsukumojuku is associated with Beyond, and said he'd meet me again.
4. Tsukumojuku said his name would help me see him again.
5. So I need to deduce the right narrative flow from that name that would cause Tsukumojuku to reappear, since that would cause Beyond to appear and help me.

So Tsukumojuku's name isn't meant to be a hint at Beyond's nature or anything. It's about Tsukumojuku, and would justify him reappearing, and Beyond helping.

Well, idk what to tell ya, but that's what it means. Like "4", why do you think his name would help? In his name, is Beyond.
Tsuku is where the 3 Beyonds are. The three gods, the trinity, for example, why does Tsuku end with "wow took ya long enough to figure out how to use Beyond huh?" if it was just on Tsuku's end. Why Jorge say "why'd Tsuku give me a book, he mustve shown up last time to make me believe in Beyond, etc".
Tsuku is a plot device (he straight up calls himself one, tho it's translated as "instrument" for some reason") in a literal sense. He's a device used by Beyond. But that doesn't really matter, because the novel flat out says that his name represents the Trinity, and that Beyond is the Trinity. As such OP's point,

"The kanji for ten, is a cross; so my name has three all-powerful gods linked together by two crosses. If God is the Trinity, then God can
be split into three."

Is literally Tsuku saying his name contains three Gods, and those Gods are the Trinity.

And then later "I thought; all of this was only possible because me and the other 'Jorge Joestar' and Dio all had Beyonds, but those three Beyonds were actually one. The Trinity." Straight up confirming "The Trinity" in question is Beyond.

Tsuku's name contains "The Trinity", and Beyond is that trinity, his name holds meaning in how to utilize Beyond.

All that you said is true, but that doesn't detract that the Three Gods in his name, are Beyond. That's what they represent in the context of the novel.

Like this doesnt really change the fact Beyond is still a transcendtal entity over the JJ cosmology and hard stated to transcend it and like 50+ random plot and author statements (an actual exorbant amount, you could inflate the op 20x over if ya gathered them all) so eh, but all the same, Tsuku's name does in fact refer to Beyond in JJ's context so saying it's nonsense just like, doesn't make sense, that's literally what it means?

By the triplets, I think you're referring to the book Tsukumojuuku, where the main character Tsukumo Juuku is eventually revealed to have originally been born as three conjoined triplets with connected brains. Where they aren't really a transcendent entity (unless you read the ending as meaning that the events of the book are a dream invented by him to cope with his trauma). So I don't think that's a helpful equivalence to draw here.

From my understanding, which could be wrong, not the biggest JDC goon ngl, havent read any in a very, very long time, but the concept of a trinity and triplets of some sort is an overarching theme? Well, not like it matters, the point was that in how a trinity that were one being having wrote the story in the past book, is repurposed here where instead of triplets coping with trauma, it's just some fuckass god dude.

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah fair, I could nitpick this a bit more but there's not much point.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

So, not should this be put in queue/closed?

 

[DRW001]

So, not should this be put in queue/closed?

Idk, I put this thread in the 1-A revision hub but nobody said anything yet soooo

 

[Chariot190]

Bump? Or are we not doing this anymore.

 

[Karabach-barabach]

Call in a mod and ask him to put this thread in a queue

Speaking of mods, Agnaa, since you actually replied here and I think get notifs from this thread, can you close it? Pretty please?

 

[DRW001]

Bump? Or are we not doing this anymore.

I think it has to go into a queue first before it can be evaluated since its a 1-A thread. Which is a shame but it is what it is.

 

[DRW001]

bump

 

[Agnaa]

Call in a mod and ask him to put this thread in a queue

Speaking of mods, Agnaa, since you actually replied here and I think get notifs from this thread, can you close it? Pretty please?

idk whether Ultima wants this open or not; I've been leaving it for his discretion.

 

[Karabach-barabach]

Got it then

 

[DRW001]

Oh looks like this is open again, anyways I've added a couple more scans to OP to flesh it out a bit more

 

[Chariot190]

Since this got opened, put me in diasgree. I could've agreed, if not for JoJo fans

You literally just contradicted yourself. You're going to need to elaborate now.

 

[Karabach-barabach]

You literally just contradicted yourself. You're going to need to elaborate now.

I deadass forgot I wrote here before, repeating myself, lmao. Either way,

Disagree, no questions asked

 

[Chariot190]

I deadass forgot I wrote here before, repeating myself, lmao. Either way,

Can you like, actually elaborate as to why?
"put me in diasgree. I could've agreed, if not for JoJo fans"
Just makes it seem like you're disagreeing, not because it's wrong, but out of petty disdain for the fanbase or some shit, unless I'm to assume you're just shitposting, in which case take that to a non potentially controversial CRT.

 

[Karabach-barabach]

Can you like, actually elaborate as to why?
"put me in diasgree. I could've agreed, if not for JoJo fans"
Just makes it seem like you're disagreeing, not because it's wrong, but out of petty disdain for the fanbase or some shit, unless I'm to assume you're just shitposting, in which case take that to a non potentially controversial CRT.

It's a mistake from my side, my dementia made me forget I wrote here before. Sorry for any inconveniences, I'll try not to repeat my mistakes

Edit to not continue on the topic since I seem to evade the question on itself: assume that I'm shitposting, I don't have the wish to continue this because I once again evaded something out of my ignorance

 

[Duragoji123]

1-A JoJo's.... Holy based.

Agree with Outer for The Beyond

 

[DRW001]

bump

 

[DRW001]

bump

 

[DRW001]

pmub

 

[DRW001]

bump

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Pretty interesting case. Honestly, I'd say most of this could be interpreted as Beyond not being a literal author entity per se but moreso a vague cosmic being that's metaphorically referred to as the story's author, but given the explicit reference to the book's title (Jorge Joestar) and Jorge's existence as its main character in a scene specifically talking about it, and the general depiction of the "plot devices" as being very literal in nature, this seems fine, unless I missed something pretty big.

 

[Chritin]

Hi all. As the title of this thread suggests, this CRT will show how Beyond from JORGE JOESTAR has qualitative superiority and R>F transcendence over the world of JoJo's itself. All of the links provided will show the full context of the respective scene, and as such may go on a bit longer than just the quoted lines here.

Beyond is the Literal Author of the world of JORGE JOESTAR and views all of it as a story​

—Tsukumojuku to Jorge (Chapter 1)

—Tsukumojuku to Joji (Chapter 2)

—Jorge believes in Beyond #1 (Chapter 13)

—Jorge believes in Beyond #2 (Chapter 15)

As you can see from the statements above, Beyond views the world of JORGE JOESTAR and JoJos as a whole as nothing but a story. Beyond is an author writing a mystery novel where Jorge and Joji are the protagonists, and where Tsukumojuku lost his status as a protagonist, eluding to Otaro Maijo's previous novel. This is clear indication of R>F transcendence and qualitative superiority. Tsukumojuku makes this most obvious with his comparison of himself being Sherlock Holmes and Beyond being Arthur Conan Doyle; the real life creator of the fictional character Sherlock Holmes.

Beyond is not a part of the world and transcends it​

It has been stated multiple times that Beyond is not within the world of JORGE JOESTAR, with it being said to be outside and not of the world. The JoJoveller guidebook goes into a little more detail and says that Beyond controls the protagonist from a reality that transcends the world itself.


—Tsukumojuku to Jorge (Chapter 1)

—Jorge remembering what Tsukumojuku told him (Chapter 13)

—JoJoveller Stands Page 317

The Reality-Fiction page on the wiki currently says:

For example, if a character were to view an entire space-time continuum as fiction, they would be superior to such an extent that it would be viewed not as a small portion or constituent of their reality, but as trivialized into nonexistence by comparison, such that their higher world is wholly irreducible to anything pertaining to the lower world. This complete superceding of the lower world's nature lands all such characters at 1-A.

The JoJo's cosmology more than fits that criteria as it contains infinite universes in which there are characters that have abilities such as dimensional walls that lead to these infinite universes, being able to move into the boundary between dimensions and move freely within that infinite space. JORGE JOESTAR itself has infinitely expanding, universal sized space-time constructs. 'The world' as described here in fact encompasses everything in JJ including universes, parallel worlds, history, etc. Beyond transcends all of this and, as confirmed previously, views all of it as fictitious and nothing more than a story, which Beyond is the author of. This subsequently places Beyond at a 1-A rating

Beyond is referred to as ‘All-Powerful’, ‘Omnipotent’ and God/The Trinity​

—Tsukumojuku describing the Trinity and his name (Chapter 7)

—Jorge trying to use Beyond to get Tsukumojuku to come (Chapter 13) (long read)

—Joji confirming that all 3 Beyonds were 1 as the Trinity (Chapter 16)

All 3 Gods in the Trinity that are described as all-powerful and omnipotent within Tsukumojuku’s name are in fact the 3 Beyonds that are by the side of Joji, Jorge and Dio. As later described by Tsukumojuku, God is the Trinity, and God can be split into three:

• Jorge is with Tsukumojuku in England (I am here)
• Joji is in the Arrow Cross House (I am in the Arrow Cross House)
• Dio is in the Coffin (I am trying to connect to a third me)

All of this occurs at once after Tsukumojuku’s death. (Keep in mind that Beyond uses Tsukumojuku as a literal plot device in order to get the ball rolling, so Tsukumojuku having all this information within his name is very intentional and literal) At the end of the novel, all 3 Beyonds are revealed to actually be one as the Trinity (God), confirming what was said above with the 3 all-powerful Gods, further highlighting Beyond's transcendent nature over the world of JoJo.

EDIT: Here are some scans showing Tsukumojuku's acting as Beyond's plot device (or instrument) despite being dead from the opening chapter


—Tsukumojuku admission of being a fictional device (Chapter 1)

—Tsukumojuku takes Joji to The H.G. Wells spacecraft (Chapter 8)

—Joji remembers what Tsukumojuku said (Chapter 10)

—Pucci's explanation (Chapter 10)

Other misc stuff/Trivia​

• Other instances in the novel also point towards the Trinity concept, such as the Beyond by Dio’s side being depicted as Jesus.
• The JORGE JOESTAR novel was first released on September 19th, 2012. In Japanese, September 19th can be written as 9-19, which is 九十九. The paperback version was then released on December 19th, 2017. In Japanese, 19 is written as 十九. Combine the two together and you get 九十九十九 or Tsukumojuku, the name of God as described in this novel. So yeah, it gets really meta.
• The number 19 above having major importance is no coincidence as it is also an important number in The Simons Case, a book within Ryūsui Seiryōin's JDC Series, where a number of characters from that book also feature in this novel.

TL;DR​

Beyond has very evident R>F transcendence and qualitative superiority over the JORGE JOESTAR world and JoJo's itself. Beyond views all of JoJo's as just a fictional story in which it is an author writing a mystery novel in the most literal of ways. Beyond exists outside and not of the world of JoJo's, with JoJoveller specifying that Beyond controls the protagonist from a reality that transcends the world of JoJo's. Beyond has also been described as 'All-Powerful' and 'Omnipotent' through the name of God and as The Trinity in addition to being depicted as Jesus; all further highlighting Beyond's transcendent nature.

(Do keep in mind though that since Beyond itself doesn't even have a profile currently (I am working on it though), the only characters that technically benefit from this right now are Joji and Novel Dio who get smurf hax via believing in Beyond)

Bold means Mod/Admin vote

Agree: Da3ggman, Chariot190 (retired mod), Spicy78, Duragoji123, Ultima_Reality

Disagree:

Neutral:

Don’t know how I missed this thread ever, but yeah I completely agree. I’ve kinda always had the idea of Beyond being 1-A in the back of my head, but frankly I’ve never had enough knowledge of tier 1 and how it functions to apply anything. So thanks for actually taking the time and writing this out pretty intricately.

 

[Genericstickman]

might as well bump

 

[Infinitinet]

Simple. Succinct. Clear. Agree with the premise of the thread.

 

[Nemu13]

This is the simplest and make sense post I have seen now no random bullshit, and I agree with it.

 

[Genericstickman]

bumping again

 

[Vyfourthaccount]

as long it doesn't have any disqualifers, I agree

 

[Harith0cell]

Agree

 

[Elizhaa]

1-A Beyond seems fine, from the proposals.

 

[Chritin]

JoJo really is the kind of verse to have tier 9 characters that have tier 1 hax lol (referring to Jorge specifically, I know Joji and Dio are stronger)