Ben 10 Speed-scaling takes an L.

[Ayewale]

Nearly every single being in the Ben 10 verse is Relativistic due to the events I'mma bout to show you:'


Z'Skayr, ghostfreak 2.0, dodges a beam of light from the Sun Gun. This is calced to be a Relativistic speed feat. This scales to all of Ben's aliens. Ben's aliens scale to all of his allies and his enemies. Who then scale to everyone else.

But what if I told you that the root of this scaling was flawed as hell? Because I recently had a peak at the Sun Gun's wiki page. And there is absolutely no mention of the Sun Gun being an actual beam of ******* light. To quote the wiki page: "The Sun Gu is a type of Plumber weapon that projects a beam as bright as sunlight."

And that is all the info regarding the weapon. Keep in mind, in the page there are no showings of character quotes saying that the Sun shot a beam of light-there is only direct proof that the beam it fires is as bright as sunlight.

But wait a minute! If there's nothing saying or showing it's an FTL attack, and the calculations using it said it's an FTL attack...then perhaps the Sun Gun isn't an FTL attack. And keep in mind, nearly every single page has Relativistic as one of, if not all of a character's speed ratings.


TL;DR: get rid of it. I'm not sure if it should be replaced with Massively Hypersonic+ or what, but certainly not Relativistic.

 

[Greenshifter]

According to this calc the aliens would still be sub-relativistic and the reasoning for the Sun Gun being a beam of light is that artificial light moves at the same speed as natural light. The FTL comes from Kevin dodging a blast of radiation and is supported by Rook claiming the Time Beast moves FTL, which is kinda redundant if they move FTL as well so I think everyone should only have FTL reactions even in the Original Series because there is no statement saying Vilgax, Tetrax and Zs'skayr being any faster in Alien Force than in the OS and combat and travel speed still have to be decided on.

 

[Greenshifter]

Also on the topic Ben and Kevin should also have FTL reactions in base since Ben can dodge an attack from Zs'Skayr in base (and he has several feats like this) and Kevin has a statement of his armored form not increasing his speed thus he should also be able to dodge a beam of radiation in base. I can't find the statement for the moment tho but if anyone wants to discuss this or other Ben 10 stuff, I just made a discussion thread for it.

 

[Ayewale]

According to this calc the aliens would still be sub-relativistic and the reasoning for the Sun Gun being a beam of light is that artificial light moves at the same speed as natural light. The FTL comes from Kevin dodging a blast of radiation and is supported by Rook claiming the Time Beast moves FTL, which is kinda redundant if they move FTL as well so I think everyone should only have FTL reactions even in the Original Series because there is no statement saying Vilgax, Tetrax and Zs'skayr being any faster in Alien Force than in the OS and combat and travel speed still have to be decided on.

The Sun Gun does not fire an artificial beam of light, it only fires a beam that is as bright as the sun. The FTL speed for Stinkfly is a huge outlier, all things considered.

 

[Ayewale]

Also on the topic Ben and Kevin should also have FTL reactions in base since Ben can dodge an attack from Zs'Skayr in base (and he has several feats like this) and Kevin has a statement of his armored form not increasing his speed thus he should also be able to dodge a beam of radiation in base. I can't find the statement for the moment tho but if anyone wants to discuss this or other Ben 10 stuff, I just made a discussion thread for it.

Except Zs'Skayr still ain't subrelativistic/FTL.

 

[Antvasima]

You should ask all of the active members listed in the Ben 10 verse page to comment here.

Asking a few VS Battles Staff members as well wouldn't hurt either.

 

[Greenshifter]

The Sun Gun does not fire an artificial beam of light, it only fires a beam that is as bright as the sun. The FTL speed for Stinkfly is a huge outlier, all things considered.

In Ben 10 most beams are considered speed of light (laser beams, Chromastone's beams) due to there being FTL (or even massively FTL) feats in the show and because Chromastone's beam refracted of Vilgax's sword and the Sun Gun beam is no exception. As for Stinkfly and Ghostfreak being FTL in Alien Force and onwards: this feat is supported by these feats and Rook claiming the Time Beast is FTL.

 

[Antvasima]

I would appreciate if somebody is willing to follow my earlier instructions, so we can get something done here.

 

[Greenshifter]

I would appreciate if somebody is willing to follow my earlier instructions, so we can get something done here.

I have done so.

 

[Firestorm808]

Zs'Skayr, without his protective skin, has consistantly said that he can't survive sunlight. In Ben 10: Alien Force S03 "Ghost Town." Azmuth imprisons him in a satellite next to a sun in addition to projecting a weaker intensity of sunlight onto him.

The Sun Gun in Ben 10 S02 "Ghostfreaked Out" "projects a beam as bright as sunlight." Ghostfreak referring to it as "daylight at night." The weapon has no effect on him in a host body.

Sunlight is a form of ultra-violet radiation. Human skin resists some of the ultra-violet rays. Radiation travels at the speed of light.

Relativistic reactions for Ben's aliens at age 10 is fine.

At age 15/16, Ben's aliens are FTL, scaled to Kevin dodging to Pandor's radiation blasts.

 

[Andytrenom]

Well, you would need evidence for the beam being speed of light since I don't see any listed on the blog

However, a beam made to defeat someone whose weakness is bright light, is a lot more believable as emitting real light than just random lasers that stand in for bullets. I am not saying I'm confident in it being speed of light but I do think discussing it is worthwhile

 

[Antvasima]

@Andy & Greenshifter

Thank you for helping out.

 

[AKM sama]

I agree with Andy. There needs to be evidence that "the beam as bright as sunlight" is actually lightspeed. Btw, can I see the feat of Z'Skayr dodging it?

 

[Greenshifter]

@AKM sama

There you go: https://www1.************.tv/watch/ben-10-season-2-episode-11-ghostfreaked-out/ It's at 13:30

 

[Ayewale]

Wouldn't kevin being FTL+ be a bit of an outlier though? I haven't found many other feats suggesting such for him or most other characters.

 

[AKM sama]

Even if Sun-Gun emitted sunlight it would be a huge outlier considering how Ghostfreak has always portrayed as being only slightly faster than other human characters in the show.

 

[Antvasima]

So what should we scale them to instead?

 

[Newendigo]

"A beam of sunlight" and "a beam as bright as sunlight" sounds like a meangless comparition. Our Laser/Light Beam Dodging Feats states that the beam may have a a origin realistic light source, not that it has to come from the specific source.

Being an Outlier is another thing. As Zs'Skayr is one of Ben strongest contenders, we would have to look for any other speed feat if it's contradicted.

 

[AKM sama]

It looks like this is the only feat from which the whole verse has been scaled too. As I have been out of touch from anything Ben 10, I'd like to see the CRT where it was accepted. For now it just looks outlierish to me as I don't remember anything in the series (including peak/athletic humans) coming close to this kind of speed.

Even going by the standards, nothing suggests that it's lightspeed. The origin of the beam is a scientific weapon, not a realistic light source. On top of that, it could just be aim dodging.

 

[Andytrenom]

I am not sure if even Xlr8 has feats on this level. At least nothing comes to mind immediately

 

[Antvasima]

Are there any other of Liger686's calculations that we can use to scale their speeds from, or should they all be given unknown speed levels instead?

 

[Andytrenom]

Although Z'skayr has Dr Victor under his command who is capable of reacting to XLR8 So XlR8 may not be as superior as it initially appears

 

[Greenshifter]

Even if Sun-Gun emitted sunlight it would be a huge outlier considering how Ghostfreak has always portrayed as being only slightly faster than other human characters in the show.

Even Four Arms has a supersonic feat in the OS which Zs'skayr should be faster than (never mind XLR8's high hypersonic feat which scales to Vilgax's reactions) and those human characters are the circus freaks who IIRC can keep up with Frankenstrike in Omniverse. Ben who is clearly way faster than ordinary humans for escaping Kevin 11 in the null void and while he is older can dodge lasers and keep up with practically all his alien enemies. Gwen who is a half Anodite (not sure if she unlocked her powers at this point in the show) and Max who is a plumber. I think we could probably scale all OS aliens (except maybe Grey Matter) to FTL since I don't see any reason why Zs'skayr's, Tetrax's and Vilgax's speed should be any different in Alien Force than in the OS.

 

[AKM sama]

Btw do we cross-scale between Ben 10 original series and omniverse?

 

[Greenshifter]

Btw do we cross-scale between Ben 10 original series and omniverse?

For the moment we don't (well except Feedback having a low-7C key due to Omniverse flashbacks so the flashbacks do cross-scale) although I don't really see why. Ben even teamed up with his younger self against Aggregor and in the final episode of the series Vilgax from 2-3 centuries ago was able to sorta react to XLR8 (Ben was distracted by him almost timing out tho). However I think it would be better to go over all time travel instances like this in a separate discussion thread to determine in what way OS Ben scales to his future self as to not clobber this thread with it.

 

[Andytrenom]

The aggregor thing was Alien force/ultimate alien, not omniverse

 

[Antvasima]

It is the same continuity, but the characters likely also grew stronger with time.

 

[Greenshifter]

The aggregor thing was Alien force/ultimate alien, not omniverse

Yeah sorry, I interpreted it as do we scale young Ben to teen Ben.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Thing is, we have had Ben's from different series and futures fight alongside each other multiple times and we already scale Ben 10Ks to Way Big's High 5-A AP and dura due to the Ken 10 episode. If we already cross scale that, what is the difference with speed here when they are always comparable unless someone uses a speed alien?

 

[Greenshifter]

It is the same continuity, but the characters likely also grew stronger with time.

I think Vilgax is the only one with a statement/being implied to be stronger (not faster tho) than before, this does not work for Zs'skayr and Tetrax (who admittedly kinda stomped Diamondhead in the OS) however since IIRC they are both alive for a few centuries and there is no reason for them to have a big boost in power and speed in between the OS and AF.

 

[Greenshifter]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndxGlw42YNY Gwen 10 is shown completely comparable to Ben 23 in terms of speed, AP and durability. Meaning the age of the alien in question doesn't change all that much. Also https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6qk036 17:00. Everybody is basically comparable to each other in every way. Benzarro's Frankenstrike should be comparable to Ben Prime's Frankenstrike and thus should be FTL and have 7A AP, yet Gwen 10's Wildvine can hurt him, tank attacks from him and is comparable in speed, this scales to all OS aliens except Grey Matter.

 

[Antvasima]

So which, if any, statistics do we need to change here, and if so, to what?

 

[Greenshifter]

So which, if any, statistics do we need to change here, and if so, to what?

If Gwen 10 scaling to Benzarro is not an outlier then all 8A and low-7C aliens become at least 7A. And I think this would also mean all at Low-7B, likely 7A aliens become at least 7A. As for speed all aliens become FTL, however we probably still need to discuss if the FTL is only reaction speed or other aspects of speed as well

 

[Firestorm808]

Are we saying it's an outlier now or that it's not ultraviolet light?

 

[Greenshifter]

Are we saying it's an outlier now or that it's not ultraviolet light?

I think they're saying both, definitely disagree with the former, the latter they could have a point since the standards on lightspeed beams are very strict nowadays although I thought that already having an FTL feat in the show made it a bit less strict, the Sun Gun was also used in "Be Afraid of the Dark" so we might find something there, but this is only relevant if we don't just scale young Ben to teen Ben.

 

[AKM sama]

Which other speed feat is there that comes close to the one with the Sun Gun?

 

[Antvasima]

I don't think that we should start to completely mess up the current statistics scaling. Liger686, who is very knowledgeable about the franchise, made a massive effort to handle it properly, even if one of his calculated speed feats has now been deemed unreliable.

We just need to find a replacement speed feat to scale the affected characters from. That is all.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

I never have been a fan of Zs'Skayr having a monstrously better feat than XLR8, the "fastest" of Ben's aliens. I imagined this would've been addressed in Liger's revision, but I don't know if that ever will come to pass.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

The Plumber Sun Gun is only stated to be "bright as sunlight" but the one GM builds the next episode utilises a light bulb for its light projection with his only basis for it being the gun Max threw him earlier. Its not an issue of being incorrect but a possible outlier which isnt even the case. OG Ben is shown to be comparable to AF/UA Ben who scales to Kevin's radiation feat which is around x4 and x11 faster than both of Zs'Skayr's feats.

Slower or weaker people having better feats than their superiors is hardly a problem when we simply upscale them from the lesser character. By the logic of XLR8 has worse feats than GF so we shouldn't use GF's feats, we would never upgrade a single verse without god tiers having the best feats.

 

[Andytrenom]

When was he proven to be comparable?

And a speed based character never demonstrating a feat close to the range of slower/comparable character is very good reason to doubt a feat when there aren't others of that level. God tiers not having the best feats in a verse can often be justified by a variety context dependent reasons; such as the god tier not demonstrating their powers as much as other characters, which makes it harder to figure out a general range for them, or, the lower character having consistent feats

But here, given that there doesn't seem to be other comparable feats in the original series, and our own profiles separate the OG and later series quite a bit powerwise, I am not sure if this rating can work