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Beholder vs Jotaro Kujo

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I've added it to both profiles. First loss for Jotaro, interestingly enough.
 
Axl233 said:
Jotaro can activate time stop with a thought tho wich would more faster then somebody using a action to activate a spell.
Click to expand...
Sorta late here, but the central eye is always active. The only way a beholder can deactivate it is to shut the eye or blind itself.
 
I wish I was here to refute this.

From what I understand people are saying anti-magic cone would affect Star Platinum? That's not true. Stands are a manifestation of the users soul, unless it explicitly has soul manipulation properties, then it would not stop Star Platinum in the slightest.

Furthermore SBA assumes that it starts outside of Beholders range, so it's not going to be an instant disintegration ray stomp. Star Platinum picks up a stone off the floor and flings it at Beholder, crippling his eye. Even if he can react to it and blow the stone up, this is effectively Jotaro's win condition and an obvious one at that; poke the giant floating eye. He can stop time and do so and it is completely in-character for him, especially since he is explicitly the one teaching Josuke about extending your stands range with the environment.

Charm Ray is useful against Jotaro, but useless against Star Platinum. Same goes for every single one of his various incapacitation rays, and you might be thinking "how?". Star Platinum's greatest ability is his self-preservation of Jotaro. Without knowledge of Star Platinum, it still blocked a point blank bullet from Jotaro because he didn't really want to die. More explicitly, Star Platinum has blocked bullets from an officer under the control of DIO while Jotaro was semi-unconcious and oxygen deprived because he stopped his own heart. Jotaro could not have commanded Star Platinum in any way, those who are oxygen deprived are unable to speak let alone solve the most basic of puzzles , so clearly it is explicit evidence that Star Platinum goes based on Jotaro's will and will actively preserve his being. This is supported by the entire Silver Chariot Requiem arc, a stand that has no user and explicitly goes on a dead Polnareff's final will.

What does this mean? Even if Jotaro is incapacitated, Star Platinum will actively work to protect and save Jotaro's life. He's asleep... great? Star Platinum still stops time grabs a rock and destroys Beholder's giant ass eye. Time resumes, Star Platinum does the heart-phase thing and revives Jotaro from his unconcious state.

The only ray that will outright kill Jotaro is the death ray and disintegration ray, and even then he can stop time and walk off to the side and throw a rock at Beholder, once again ending the fight.

TLDR: Jotaro has a larger range than you think, Star Platinum cannot be incapacitated with the exception of the petrification ray, but time stop easily out maneuver's whatever ray is being shot at Jotaro, allowing him to evade every single one of his attacks.
 
Unless I have things wrong and someone can debunk my arguments, then those who voted based on these arguments are invalid and this is not a finished thread.
 
> From what I understand people are saying anti-magic cone would affect Star Platinum? That's not true. Stands are a manifestation of the users soul, unless it explicitly has soul manipulation properties, then it would not stop Star Platinum in the slightest.

It cancels psionic attacks and can disable ghosts/other insubstantial spirits if they enter the cone's range.
 
I don't see it on his profile, so can I get a source? @Qawsedf234

Even so, it doesn't negate the fact that time stop >>>> any ray. He just sidesteps.
 
@Qawsedf234 it has a range of only 10ft though. Jotaro's profile explicitly states 20m as the range for marbel shots (which should be comparable to any stone, really.) so he can easily cripple it out of range and it is in-character for him to do so. This also assumes Beholder instantly begins the fight using it's anti-magic cone, but it really wouldn't have any reason to seeing as how Jotaro appears to be your average everyday person. It's more likely he would start the fight with his disintegration ray, which we already established is relatively easy to evade with time stop.

There is a delay between activating timestop but it's not significant enough to mention unless you're a MFTL character, seeing as how Star Platinum could strike The World before he could stop time. Even this is kinda iffy, Star Platinum was able to stop time before a MFTL stand (Josuke and Crazy Diamond) was able to strike him in the face.

Speed equalized doesn't make Beholder's attack speed faster in the same way speed equalized doesn't make someones gun shoot faster bullets. Therefore Beholder's attacks wouldn't be MFTL because of speed equalized.

Throwing a rock at Beholder in stopped time kind of ends this fight, really. Though it's not on his profile, Beholder is a giant floating eyeball and that's a pretty big weakness. He will effectively be blinded if the rock hits him in the eye. Jotaro can walk up and ORA ORA ORA him to death from there.

And before the argument is made, yes stands are able to throw things at MFTL speeds with relatively similar strength to their own punches. The World (a stand equal in physicality to Star Platinum) is able to overwhelm Star Platinum and reach Jotaro through throwing knives .
 
> it has a range of only 10ft though.

The antimagic field does you're correct, but the Beholder's antimagic cone has a range of 150 feet. I brought up the comparison between the two because the text explicitly stated that they both had the same nullification properties.

> This also assumes Beholder instantly begins the fight using it's anti-magic cone

The antimagic cone is always on. The only way for the Beholder to shut it off is to either close the large central eye or blind itself/get blinded. So just by looking at Jotaro it'll disable the Stand from being summoned. However, like you said it doesn't know what Jotaro can do so it'll probably close its eye and try a ray before it attempts to engage in melee or something.
 
Beholder's ray negates superantural effects. Stands are a supernatural effect.

Of course Beholder's ray isn't MFTL. We never said it was. They both have the same speed, which I typically understand as being "Human speed".

What? Why would throwing a rock insta-end the battle?

Being able to throw stuff at MFTL is immaterial in speed equalized. Speed. is. equalized.

The cone has a ray of 150 ft, not ten feet.

Your arguments don't change my opinion. Beholder can negate Jotaro's attacks, petrify him, disintegrate him, force him to sleep, and so on. It all ends the fight. Jotaro's time stop will help, but not enough.
 
Well then how is it's antimagic field useful? It disables it's own damn abilities, is it going to run up and bite Jotaro? If Jotaro realizes he can't summon Star Platinum he'll probably assume that it's using an ability of some sort. He's not one to run away, so he'll probably stand there as it approaches him and probably try to see if he can't beat the shit out of it himself, once he realizes he can't he'll probably stop trying. (He has 8-B durability, so he won't be crushed if it just bodies him.) Not only that but we've already adressed it can't throw any punches, so it's kind of just stalemating when he does so, Jotaro is not going to get bit by the giant pair of teeth.

Regardless, I already pointed out he doesn't look like a traditional mage and looks like your everyday human, so Beholder would definitely start out with a ray of some sort and not the anti-magic cone. Time stop plus ranged shot easily disables Beholder entirely, he becomes half-blind and he can't release his anti-magic cone anymore. Obviously Jotaro won't just throw rocks at him until he dies, so he'll walk on over and ORA ORA ORA without any risk.
 
Yes. If the field negates the Stand and Beholder's abilities, Beholder destroys Jotaro, as his own AP is only 9-B. Their duras are close. In a physical fight, Beholder takes it easily.

Please, try to understand the arguments here. And Beholder ALWAYS has the anti-magic cone up. Please try to listen.
 
Because he's a giant floating eyeball. Poking his eye out with a rock instantly disables his anti-magic cone and effectively disables him. Jotaro walks up after he does so and ORA ORA ORA's him to death.

Speed equalized means you scale up to the highest speed, not the lowest. Star Platinum is still able to throw at MFTL in this fight. Regardless, even if he's able to avoid his first rock, he'll quickly stop time and throw another, crippling Beholder.

It's not in-character for him to use the cone against someone who doesn't look like a magic user, so he would definitely start with a ray, not an anti-magic cone.

Jotaro's time stop avoids every single ray, and Star Platinum has great range with thrown objects, so he can attack from outside of Beholder's eye-cone range.
 
Please, try to understand the arguments here. And Beholder ALWAYS has the anti-magic cone up. Please try to listen.

Seems like wank, according to sources provided I do not see this at all. Source?
 
> Source?

Image : A Beholder's central eye continuously produces a 150-foot antimagic cone extending straight ahead from the creature's front.

Then in sentence four

Once each round, during its turn, the beholder decides which way it will face, and whether the anitmagic cone is active or not (the beholder deactivates the cone by shutting its central eye).
 
I think you misunderstand, from what I understand once it opens it's eye it forcefully activates it's anti-magic cone ability and continuously produces it as such. This is only deactivated once it closes its eye.

Does it always have it's eye open? Does it only open it when it wants to activate the ability?
 
> I understand once it opens it's eye it forcefully activates it's anti-magic cone ability and continuously produces it as such. This is only deactivated once it closes its eye.

You're understanding is completly correct


> Does it always have it's eye open?

It usually has its central eye open as it floats around. The only time they usually close it is to use magic or to fight stuff. Should note that I'm talking about a "standard" beholder. Some Beholders will blind themselves and become mages for example.


> Does it only open it when it wants to activate the ability?

I remember that there was a source book that went over how Beholders worked biologically. I think in that it said the central eye helps with perception so it would likely have it open.
 
Foggysniper said:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/05/2...ing-blindness-on-a-beholder-disable-its-eyes/
A note but blinding the Beholder doesn't disable the anti-magic cone. You could blind it to prevent it from using it's rays but blinding it won't surpress the cone.
Click to expand...
That's referring to it's vision, not whether or not it's eye is open. If he closes his eye the cone becomes shut off from the rest of the world. If you hit it's eyeball and force it to close its eyes, it will de-activate his cone.
 
ProfessorLord said:
That's referring to it's vision, not whether or not it's eye is open. If he closes his eye the cone becomes shut off from the rest of the world. If you hit it's eyeball and force it to close its eyes, it will de-activate his cone.
Click to expand...
It is going to be extremely difficult for Jotaro to actually do this before being killed.

Not impossible by any stretch, but the chance he actually manages this before the Beholder destroys him is significantly lower than the chance of the Beholder ending the battle before he can, especially when it turns him into a wall level human with city block level+ durability while within the 150 foot view of its central eye.
 
Nice, so by default it will instantly start out with it's anti-magic cone. Jotaro will realize that he can no longer manifest it's stand, and that he has no way to defend himself. But, since it closes it's eye to use magic and fight stuff, it will have to close it's eye in order to shoot out it's disintegration ray at Jotaro.

This is his opening. Jotaro is very perceptive, he will no doubt stop time as soon as he sees the disintegration ray on the basis that he may not be able to dodge it, and that his opponent has the ability to prevent him from using Star Platinum. "He may be able to stop me from using Star Platinum, but can he do it in stopped time?" would likely be Jotaro's line of thinking.

From there he has two options, he needs to follow up with a counter-attack quickly before time resumes and Beholder stops him from using his stand again. Is he able to run up in time and just plain out ORA ORA ORA him? Most likely, yes. Jotaro has explicitly ran 400m in 25 seconds, he can easily run 30ft in 1-2. Even if he was unable to, he's still in range for Star Platinum to grab something off the floor and hit Beholder with from a distance.

From there time resumes and either Beholder is instantly ORA ORA ORA'd or is blinded by whatever Star Platinum threw at his eyelid, causing it to swell and tear up, preventing him from using his eye-cone.

This is an open and shut case. Now that I have debunked the previous arguments, "FRA" should no longer be valid reasoning and thus I think all votes are invalid.
 
ProfessorLord said:
Nice, so by default it will instantly start out with it's anti-magic cone. Jotaro will realize that he can no longer manifest it's stand, and that he has no way to defend himself. But, since it closes it's eye to use magic and fight stuff, it will have to close it's eye in order to shoot out it's disintegration ray at Jotaro.
Click to expand...
But it won't. If its antimagic cone neuters the opponent, and the Beholder is fighting one opponent, it doesn't have a reason to deactivate it. Jotaro can't use his Stand properly while within the antimagic cone, and if he gets out of it, the Beholder's going to try and hit him with other rays. If the biggest threat is rendered inert by keeping its central eye open, that's what it's going to do.
 
That's one way Jotaro can win, but you're assuming that the Beholder will shut down his Anti-Magic field to disintegrate him instead of just using his teeth to bite him to death. You're assuming the battle can go one way and one way only.

Also, speed is equalized so your point about Jotaro being able to move 400 m is 25 seconds isn't really relevant since they are both able to move at the same speed.
 
Dude, you haven't debunked them, you've just refused to acknowledge the fact that they are viable and called sources "wank' even though they had been provided. Foggy and Qawsed and I have literally been poring over D&D stuff for the past few days trying to bring the verse to an acceptable place, nerfing some and buffing others. I mean no offense, but we're relatively well-versed in this stuff (and from what I can tell Qawsed has an infinite library of D&D material somewhere, what a glorious man)

Beholder, so long as its eye is open, will always have an anti-magic cone of 150 ft in length to negate the stand, as it falls under "supernatural" (which we've established is different than magic and just means supernatural). This would be up instantly, as the fight starts from 30ft. Jotaro would have to escape this to do anything.

You keep trying to use speed as a reason. This is speed equalized. They move and react at the same speeds. Speed means literally nothing.

I vote for Beholder. Your words have only furthered this as you need to literally bend the rules of the match to justify Jotaro winning.

So, currently, we have this:

Beholder: 8 (not including Azzy or Qawsed despite the fact that they do seem to agree)

Jotaro Kujo: 1

Inconclusive: 0

This is still enough to count as victory, though the grace period should have been activated, despite what others said.
 
@Azathoth, Beholder has no knowledge that Jotaro is using "magic" of any sort. I was already told it was in-character for him to close his central eye when attempting to use magic or any sort of attack, I'm sure he can override this if he so chooses but he'd have no reason to if he believes his opponent (who looks like a civilian and not a mage) has no access to magic whatsoever. Not only that but according to the sources provided, he cannot use his own magic rays if his central eye is open.

So the fight starts out with Star Platinum incapcitated from the anti-magic cone. Beholder now wants to erase Jotaro, so he prepares his disintegration ray and begins to fire it at Jotaro, according to his profile this and his death ray are his go-to attack. In doing so he closes his central eye, freeing up the anti-magic cone that had been affecting Star Platinum. Jotaro who should have already been aware his stand wasn't working because he couldn't manifest it now quickly realizes this. Jotaro quickly shouts out "Star Platinum The World! " and stops time.

Time is frozen. Jotaro is now well aware his opponent is able to prevent Star Platinum. He needs to be taken out NOW, while Jotaro still has access to Star Platinum. (Whether or not he is perceptive enough to realize it's because of his eye doesn't really matter.) As stated in OP, there is only 30ft seperating the two fighters. Jotaro has easily ran 400m in 25 seconds, this should be a none-issue for him. (This is unaffected by speed equalized, Beholder can't ******* move.) He sidesteps the active beam and runs towards Beholder. Star Platinum goes ahead and gives his giant ass eyelid the worst ******* beatdown it has experienced.

Time begins to resume and Beholder gets sent flying dozens of meters into a building. If he wasn't defeated by that beatdown, his eyeball sure is crushed and blinded. He cannot physically open it anymore. From there Jotaro can follow up if needs be.
 
You don't understand Beholder's own abilities @Mr. Bambu. He cannot use any sort of attack (except for biting, but that's out of character and his profile says he'd rather use disintegration and death-ray first anyways) while his central eye is open. HE MUST DE-ACTIVATE THE ANTI-MAGIC CONE TO USE ANY OF HIS RAYS. This is explicit and already stated in the sources provided. In doing so he lets Jotaro use Star Platinum and blitz him in the stopped time.
 
"Beholder has no knowledge that Jotaro is using "magic" of any sort."

Jotaro starts in its central eye's cone. If the Beholder notices that this isn't something Jotaro wants to be in or if it's affecting his ability to do something, which it will, that cone is staying up.

I'm going to provide a direct quote from Volo's about how scary smart and vigilant Beholders are.

"The mind of a beholder is powerful and versatile enough that it can envision literally any possibility, and it prepares accordingly, making it virtually impossible for any invaders to catch it unawares. This way of thinking could be interpreted as a form of paranoia- and if so, it would be the most extreme form imaginable. While a human tyrant might be rightfully paranoid about unperceived threats, a beholder is paranoid even though it perceives everything, because that attitude is the natural companion to eternal vigilance." - Volo's Guide to Monsters, pg. 6

"Complementing this ever-present, passive paranoia is the beholder's genius-level intelligence. Where another creature would ignore the occurrence of two seemingly unrelated events as merely coincidental, a beholder imagines multiple ways they could be related, finding or fabricating a pattern out of supposed or actual randomness. By thinking of all these possibilities-however implausible they might be-and extrapolating its own actions in response, a beholder is truly prepared for any situation and has a strategy to counteract it.

A beholder has plans on top of plans, even for the least likely circumstances. It doesn't matter if invading 10 Monster Lore adventurers arrive at its lair with summoned angel allies or enslaved demons, by breaking through the floor, by teleporting or riding dinosaurs, or girded with layers of magical defenses and armed with advanced weapons. In any case, the beholder's reaction is calculated, because it has thought about what it and its minions must do in response to every situation." - Volo's Guide to Monsters, pg. 6
 
ProfessorLord said:
You don't understand Beholder's own abilities @Mr. Bambu. He cannot use any sort of attack (except for biting, but that's out of character and his profile says he'd rather use disintegration and death-ray first anyways) while his central eye is open. HE MUST DE-ACTIVATE THE ANTI-MAGIC CONE TO USE ANY OF HIS RAYS. This is explicit and already stated in the sources provided. In doing so he lets Jotaro use Star Platinum and blitz him in the stopped time.
Click to expand...
It's also in character to keep the Anti-Magic cone on an opponent whose power he is nullifying. It's a pretty common tactic to keep the Anti-Magic cone on the spellcaster while he goes ham with eye beams on his other opponents. So if he visibly notices the character reacting to something not working, the Beholder isn't going to be stupid enough to drop the Anti-Magic
 
Even against non-magical characters Beholder uses the anti-magic, largely because in its own verse, even non-magic characters are severely augmented by magic (as in, wielding equipment of magical nature). This equipment is the main thing that keeps Beholder from winning.

As a less-serious side note, in what world does Jotaro look like a civilian lol

You keep describing exactly one way for Beholder to win when it is much simpler for Beholder to eat his opponents if he wants to kill them, which is what we're doing here. You're also assuming that Jotaro acts first if the cone goes down, at which point a plethora of things can happen, up to and including:

Jotaro can immediately realize that, for no reason in particular, his Stand begins working and does exactly as you say without any issue arising. This also assumes that Jotaro continues trying through the Beholder's suppression, as he wouldn't know when his Stand would begin working again.

Jotaro doesn't know his stand works, and Beholder causes him to...

  • Disintegrate
  • Be charmed
  • Sleep, and probably be food
  • Be petrified
And so on.

Beholder doesn't drop the field, and eats him as a very casual lunch.

Basically, you're making VASTLY unfair assumptions that the fight doesn't say. Jotaro has no idea how the Beholder works, and they are in character. Meaning 9/10, Beholder wins.
 
@Azathoth.

He is still unable to tell if this is affecting Jotaro's ability of some sort. Of course this is not a situation Jotaro wants to be in, he's about to ******* disintegrate him lol. It cannot keep the cone up if it wants to use any sort of ray.

It's paranoia only furthers my argument. If Beholder really believes literally anything is a threat to him, then he himself is unsure if Jotaro is really a threat to him. This works against him as much as it does for him. Despite being extremely paranoid, it does not affect his preference to use his disintegration ray. This is stated on his profile. Therefore he would still use it against Jotaro, rather than biting him. Him immediately biting him would be out of character.

He still cannot shoot Jotaro with his own rays if he is also using his anti-magic cone on him. It's explicitly stated here , "All magical and supernatural powers and effects are suppresed - even the beholders own eye rays."

Because of his preference to use his disintegration ray, coupled with the fact that he must de-activate his anti-magic cone to do so, it is more likely (8/10 times) that he will do so against Jotaro. Once he de-activates his anti-magic cone, it's basically a win for Jotaro. He will never land his ray on Jotaro. This is a sad truth.

Also,

Jotaro can immediately realize that, for no reason in particular, his Stand begins working and does exactly as you say without any issue arising. This also assumes that Jotaro continues trying through the Beholder's suppression, as he wouldn't know when his Stand would begin working again.

Wrong. I already stated and explained how self-preservation is an ability of Star Platinum. If Jotaro is in danger, the very second he is able to manfiest and stop time to protect Jotaro, he will do so.

It's not assumptions, this is in-character interactions. Beholder will use his disintegration ray, which will cause him to lose this fight. The only scenario in which Beholder wins is where he goes against his character, keeps the anti-magic cone going and straight up eats Jotaro. But this is not in-character, so it doesn't apply.
 
ProfessorLord said:
@Azathoth.
He is still unable to tell if this is affecting Jotaro's ability of some sort. Of course this is not a situation Jotaro wants to be in, he's about to ******* disintegrate him lol. It cannot keep the cone up if it wants to use any sort of ray.
Click to expand...
"Complementing this ever-present, passive paranoia is the beholder's genius-level intelligence. Where another creature would ignore the occurrence of two seemingly unrelated events as merely coincidental, a beholder imagines multiple ways they could be related, finding or fabricating a pattern out of supposed or actual randomness. By thinking of all these possibilities-however implausible they might be-and extrapolating its own actions in response, a beholder is truly prepared for any situation and has a strategy to counteract it."

Also, notice that its paranoia and intelligence are listed as complements, not something detrimental to the Beholder.
 
> Beholder: 8 (not including Azzy or Qawsed despite the fact that they do seem to agree)

I don't know enough about JoJo to give a proper opinion. I'm just giving evidence about what a beholder can do.
 
Despite this however, Beholder is still biased towards his disintegration and death rays. Even with all this knowledge, it ultimately does not affect his preference, and thus it would not affect the outcome.

This is still not 100% accurate. It's extremely likely he'll form a pattern and an incorrect hypothesis, maybe believing that Jotaro is a god, or that Jotaro is a psychic user of some sort. Either way it's not explicit knowledge of other characters.
 
Yes, he can. He can foresee possibilities (by the way, nice find, forgot about that. That would count as Precognition, no?)

You are completely misunderstanding what we are telling you. Beholder can tell what is a threat, and the paranoia is really just a form of understanding that MANY things are threats to him. So Beholder knows for a fact that Jotaro is a threat, and thus is paranoid.

No offense meant, and I do mean that, I have high doubts that you have ever played D&D and I also doubt you've actually understood the context of what we're showing you. Beholder, beyond a shadow of a doubt would, in character, simply keep up his anti-magic and kill Jotaro, mostly. Disintegration ray is useful for taking down a foe that cannot be otherwise useful, meaning, simply getting enemies out of the way, such as versus a large group, which is what the Beholder normally faces.

I am still of the belief Beholder takes this handily. Grace Period ends in 16 hours, @Future Me.
 
Side note. Why would Beholder believe Jotaro is a god or a psychic lol? Gods in D&D are universal in strength, at base. Even in avatars they create global disasters. Jotaro is just a man. Beholder sees "oh he's got something I cancel out, jolly good." Jotaro is lunch.

And Qawsed, yeah, I get it. I've interacted with it a few times and it seems super solid, but I don't actively partake of it.
 
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