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Beholder vs Jotaro Kujo

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ProfessorLord said:
Despite this however, Beholder is still biased towards his disintegration and death rays. Even with all this knowledge, it ultimately does not affect his preference, and thus it would not affect the outcome.

This is still not 100% accurate. It's extremely likely he'll form a pattern and an incorrect hypothesis, maybe believing that Jotaro is a god, or that Jotaro is a psychic user of some sort. Either way it's not explicit knowledge of other characters.
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This is 100% against pretty much all established Beholder lore. The Beholder having a preferred way to murder someone does not mean it will do so if there is a better option available. If antimagic is its best way to deal with a single target, that's what it's going to use.

You're also assuming the Beholder will make a completely incorrect assumption, which is also heavily against its actual lore. Look at this part of the quote, again.

"A beholder has plans on top of plans, even for the least likely circumstances. It doesn't matter if invading 10 Monster Lore adventurers arrive at its lair with summoned angel allies or enslaved demons, by breaking through the floor, by teleporting or riding dinosaurs, or girded with layers of magical defenses and armed with advanced weapons. In any case, the beholder's reaction is calculated, because it has thought about what it and its minions must do in response to every situation."

It doesn't come up with an incorrect plan and then follow through on it. It comes up with many plans for every possible situation so that it doesn't matter what's attacking it. It's going to notice the relation between its antimagic cone and Jotaro not being able to do something. The Beholder is so smart, it would genuinely be a miracle if it didn't notice that immediately. This too is supported by actual lore.

Antimagic = bad for opponent is probably the very first thing it would pick up on.

You are seriously underselling just how hilariously intelligent this thing is supposed to be. Especially when most of its mental activity is dedicated to stuff just like this.

"Most of a beholder's mental activity is devoted to unearthing plots against itself (real or imaginary), planning attacks against known rivals, and preparing its defenses against all possible threats."
 
ProfessorLord said:
This is still not 100% accurate. It's extremely likely he'll form a pattern and an incorrect hypothesis, maybe believing that Jotaro is a god, or that Jotaro is a psychic user of some sort. Either way it's not explicit knowledge of other characters.
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If he thought he was a god, he'd know the anti-magic wouldn't be working and if he thought he was a psychic he wouldn't put the cone down.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
Side note. Why would Beholder believe Jotaro is a god or a psychic lol? Gods in D&D are universal in strength, at base. Even in avatars they create global disasters.
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IIRC, antimagic also fails against deities and things of deity-level strength (like demon lords), so this would be extremely far from the primary conclusion in the Beholder's mind if it noticing someone struggling with antimagic.
 
...Can't Jotaro just keep his distance until the Beholder lets down its antimagic cone? I mean, I feel like he's not so stupid that he would just run up to it without his stand, instead of keeping his distance and trying to figure out what the thing's gimmick is. As long as he stays away from the Beholder, it'll be forced to use eye beams to attack, which means that he'll be able to summon Star Platinum once he figures out that he can do it again when the big eye is closed. From there he timestops and Star Platinum beats it to death.

Sidenote, but Supernatural abilities are explicitly magical in DnD, IIRC.
 
D&D is ultimately decided how the GM decides to play out the interactions. I've played the game before, you're taking all of his abilities out of context and assuming things that haven't been demonstrated.

There is no reason for him to keep his anti-magic up and kill Jotaro. It goes against the stated preferences on his profile, it's out of character. Being super intelligent and highly paranoid doesn't equate to precognition, because there are thousands of equally likely outcomes that explain why Jotaro might panic a little. One of them being magic doesn't mean for certain it is magic.

Not only that but let's run with the anti-magic cone scenario. Now Beholder begins to chase Jotaro, whom knows he cannot use his stand. He's going to fight back. He can't damage Beholder, really, but he's not going to let him just eat him. He's used his enviornment to evade the bastard, he's done this before . Speed is equalized, running away is a viable option and he has done it againstYellow Temperance before . SBA says Central Park, there's a million opportunites for Jotaro to lose his line of sight.

The minute Jotaro leaves his line of sight, means he's no longer under influence of the anti-magic cone. Star Platinum manfiests and he is immediately made aware of this. From here he can stop time, walk up to him, and give him an ORA ORA ORA.
 
@Timesmashaperil

Anti-magic explicitly affects supernatural abilities outside of magic. We established that further up in the thread, with sources.

As for distance... no, he can't. With speed equalized, unless Jotaro outsmarts the Beholder (unlikely), he can't really escape the Beholder's cone.
 
Timesmashaperil said:
...Can't Jotaro just keep his distance until the Beholder lets down its antimagic cone? I mean, I feel like he's not so stupid that he would just run up to it without his stand, instead of keeping his distance and trying to figure out what the thing's gimmick is. As long as he stays away from the Beholder, it'll be forced to use eye beams to attack, which means that he'll be able to summon Star Platinum once he figures out that he can do it again when the big eye is closed. From there he timestops and Star Platinum beats it to death.
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The distance of 150 feet is 120 feet more than he's starting away from the Beholder, and both are going to be moving around the same speed. Jotaro getting out of the cone is how he can potentially win this match, it doesn't mean he's going to be able to consistently do it.
 
I wasn't talking about escaping the cone, I was talking about him staying away from the Beholder so it would have to use a ranged attack to hit him.

EDIT: Also, I have no idea where you established that antimagic fields affect anything other than magic in DnD. You mention how it can affect spirits, but spirits/ghosts/incorporeal undead are explicitly magical.
 
@Professor The official term for that phenomenon is "Homebrew", in which the DM can choose to do whatever they please and add anything. If we're including Homebrew, there's a goblin that's Low 2-C, and everyone is above that Goblin. We don't use Homebrew.

No, we are talking about things established in the character's canon. Azzy and Qawsed have both provided sources to prove these statements, as established by the creators of the game. You are taking it out of context in order to make it more likely that the Beholder will lose. Beholder does whatever it believes bring the best chance of winning. If it can deduce that anti-magic is the way to go (which it will as said by Azzy, almost certainly), it will use it.

Speed being equalized means Beholder moves at relatively the same speed. Evading line of sight is unlikely. Possible, granted, but unlikely.
 
Beholder: 9

Jotaro: 1

Inconc: 0
 
@Time He'd have to escape the cone in order to do that, which is unlikely.
 
ProfessorLord said:
D&D is ultimately decided how the GM decides to play out the interactions. I've played the game before, you're taking all of his abilities out of context and assuming things that haven't been demonstrated.
There is no reason for him to keep his anti-magic up and kill Jotaro. It goes against the stated preferences on his profile, it's out of character. Being super intelligent and highly paranoid doesn't equate to precognition, because there are thousands of equally likely outcomes that explain why Jotaro might panic a little. One of them being magic doesn't mean for certain it is magic.
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That's not at all how this works. DM decisions don't affect canon D&D lore. If a DM runs a Beholder as a creature capable of atomizing entire worlds, this does not become the Beholder's new power level. If another DM runs them as having a weakness to chocolate, this is not a canon weakness. The true context and cano is the lore, which is exactly what I have been giving you, but you aren't accepting it.

"stated preferences on his profile"

You are still completely ignoring how Beholders work in-character. Having a preference does not equate to using it over the safe solution due to how smart and paranoid these things are.
 
So the votes for Beholder are under the basis that he can just anti-magic cone him and proceed to eat him?

No? Jotaro is not going to willingly let himself get eaten. He will run until he can figure out why he cannot use Star Platinum. In Central Park, there's a million ways you can get lost. It's only a matter of time till Jotaro enters something like a subway and suddenly, Beholder no longer knows where he is. From there it only takes a simple deduction "when i'm in his line of sight I can't use star platinum" and then a time stop to easily end this fight.

I do not see how the votes are valid. They're assuming Jotaro will just let Beholder eat him.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
@Time He'd have to escape the cone in order to do that, which is unlikely.
Click to expand...
Okay, I really think you aren't listening to me. The Beholder has two ways to attack: Biting, and its beams. If Jotaro stays away from it, so that it can't bite him, it will have to use a ray to attack, and subsequently will have to lower its antimagic cone.
 
Timesmashaperil said:
Okay, I really think you aren't listening to me. The Beholder has two ways to attack: Biting, and its beams. If Jotaro stays away from it, so that it can't bite him, it will have to use a ray to attack, and subsequently will have to lower its antimagic cone.
Click to expand...
Cone is 150 feet long.

Jotaro starts 30 feet away.

They move at basically the same speed due to speed being equalized.

Jotaro is also not the type to constantly try and play keep-away, and even then, we've established that the Beholder has backup plans for this.
 
He's going to run away, was my entire point. He's done it against Yellow Temperance, a stand he could not defeat. He will not willingly let himself get eaten.

You need to provide an example on how the intelligence is relevant? Is he going to beat Jotaro in chess?
 
ProfessorLord said:
You need to provide an example on how the intelligence is relevant? Is he going to beat Jotaro in chess?
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My dude, for real?

"Complementing this ever-present, passive paranoia is the beholder's genius-level intelligence. Where another creature would ignore the occurrence of two seemingly unrelated events as merely coincidental, a beholder imagines multiple ways they could be related, finding or fabricating a pattern out of supposed or actual randomness. By thinking of all these possibilities-however implausible they might be-and extrapolating its own actions in response, a beholder is truly prepared for any situation and has a strategy to counteract it."
 
Yes, I know the cone is 150 feet long. I know that Jotaro starts 30ft away. And I know that speed is equal. Which means that it will be a stalemate between the two if Jotaro runs away, unless the Beholder lowers its Antimagic Cone to shoot him.

EDIT: And I still have no idea what you're referring to when earlier in the thread it was argued that the Antimagic Cone works on more than just magic.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Jotaro is also not the type to constantly try and play keep-away, and even then, we've established that the Beholder has backup plans for this.
Click to expand...
You have to provide relevant examples of how his backup plans can help him, because I don't know any backup plan that he could come up with that would help him become faster.

Jotaro has played keep away in the past, he explcitly has done this with Yellow Temperance.
 
HE'S INTELLIGENT, I understand this. How is he going to use this intelligence??? Intelligence cannot make you faster than your opponent who is running away from you. Intelligence cannot help you in this situation.
 
Timesmashaperil said:
Yes, I know the cone is 150 feet long. I know that Jotaro starts 30ft away. And I know that speed is equal. Which means that it will be a stalemate between the two if Jotaro runs away, unless the Beholder lowers its Antimagic Cone to shoot him.
Click to expand...
This implies Jotaro literally starts the fight running in the opposite direction, though.

Also that if he does this, he'll know when the Beholder closes its main eye to shoot him.

Or that he'll even know that closing its main eye is what lets him use his stand if he's not trying to activate the stand at the time due to running and also not looking at the Beholder.
 
Korudo Daio said:
Shouldn't this be closed, though? It's already been added to their profiles, apparently. >_>
Click to expand...
No because threads that have been voted for on incorrect assumptions and knowledge is not final.

I could just request for this to be removed, or request a re-match.
 
It has been and should be removed, due to the fact that Grace Period has been made. If you'd like to unfollow, feel free, I sense this getting out of hand. I'll edit it out and re-add it should the grace period successfully go through.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
This implies Jotaro literally starts the fight running in the opposite direction, though.

Also that if he does this, he'll know when the Beholder closes its main eye to shoot him.

Or that he'll even know that closing its main eye is what lets him use his stand if he's not trying to activate the stand at the time due to running and also not looking at the Beholder.
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He doesn't need to know that when the Beholder closes its eye he can use Star Platinum. Star Platinum will manifest itself and stop time on his behalf, it's called self preservation and he has demonstrated this already.
 
Yes. But you're assuming Jotaro hides specifically because he figures this out, Professor.
 
It implies that Jotaro runs in the opposite direction once he realizes that his Stand won't appear (if the antimagic cone even nulls that, which I still believe isn't true). And he can still look over his shoulder, you know. If he sees it close its eye to shoot at him, he'll probably be able to deduce that there's a reason for that. Even if he doesn't, Star Platinum can still stop time of its own accord to protect him.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
Yes. But you're assuming Jotaro hides specifically because he figures this out, Professor.
Click to expand...
He hides and runs away because he realizes "oh shit I can't use Star Platinum... and this ******* monster is running towards me!"

"This must be the ability of an enemy s t a n d !"
 
Yeah Star Platinum would break either, but random stones/Jojo might not be able to.
 
Professor, point is, throwing a rock at Beholder's eyes likely won't cause it to blink, since its eye is as hard as a stone.
 
My point is that he casually kicked a police officer so hard that he went flying across the street and through a metal garage door. Not only that but he's demonstrated blatant superhuman sprinting feats.

Scaling from the previously mentioned officer feat, he's definitely able to throw a rock hard enough to cause it to blink. He's beaten up an orangutant, you know, those monkeys who are x7 stronger than a man?
 
Timesmashaperil said:
It implies that Jotaro runs in the opposite direction once he realizes that his Stand won't appear (if the antimagic cone even nulls that, which I still believe isn't true). And he can still look over his shoulder, you know. If he sees it close its eye to shoot at him, he'll probably be able to deduce that there's a reason for that. Even if he doesn't, Star Platinum can still stop time of its own accord to protect him.
Click to expand...
Is that going to give him enough of a head start, though? Because he basically has several seconds at absolute maximum to realize nothing is happening and decide to run in the opposite direction. He can and obviously will look over his shoulder, but he's not going to be doing it constantly so that he can actually see where he's going.

Star Platinum can manifest on its own yes, but I'm not sure this is going to give it enough time to properly react. The Beholder would likely be attempting to shut off the cone and hit Jotaro simultaneously.

Of course, I'm assuming it may attempt to deactivate the cone, but I don't even know if that's a certainty, as it could always fire its beams around the outside of it should Jotaro attempt to escape. I don't know how likely him constantly running in a straight line is, and even then, flat out running as soon as possible isn't going to consistently be his style, here.

(Regardless, I have to step out a bit for a movie, so excuse me if I don't comment, for a while.)
 
It is a stone eyeball with 8-B dura. As in, it is as hard as stone, but also has 8-B dura (can tank spells and attacks on this level).
 
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